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Discussion in 'Classic Mustang Specific Tech' started by steel1212, Dec 12, 2005.
what kind of brakes did you have that had 6 bolts? my calipers have 2
what do you need to know? the steering geometry for the 68-73 spindles is identical to the granada spindle. i'll have to double check on this but i'm pretty sure the 68-73 caliper bracket and the granada bracket are interchangeable between 68-73 and granada spindles, in other words you can use the different caliper brackets on the different spindles. so for someone with stock 68-73 disc brakes wanting a beefier spindle but want to keep their stock calipers and stuff this might be a feasible swap
The Granada spindle (the steering knuckle) has identical steering geometry and wheel offset to all 67-73 spindles, drum or disc. So the Granada spindle is a direct replacement for the originals. The only real difference between the the 68-73 systems and the Granada system is that the 68-69 have smaller spindle pin and 68-73 have a smaller and in my (and Ford's, since they made the change in 75) inferior caliper. The Granada spindle has a smaller caliper mounting bolt hole so the Granada and 68-73 caliper brackets are not interchangable. I intend to make some 68-73 type brackets that will fit the Granada spindle.
Check out the summary below. I had posted it to another forum last month.
The following is a summary dealing with Ford's Falcon chassis based spindles. WARNING, long post.
There are a lot of opinions, right and wrong concerning the Granada swap. I have made it my business over the last 15 months to get to know the Granada system.
Spindle Types (or more properly called steering knuckles).
The Granada car is built on the Falcon Chassis that was the basis for Falcon, 65-73 Mustang, Maverick, 75-80 Granada and others. The suspensions in all of those cars are basically the same, with minor differences in outer tie rods.
65-73 Mustang and related models had 8 varieties of spindles.
1. A light weight 65-66 drum brake spindle used with 6 cylinder cars.
2. A 65-66 drum spindle which was adapted for disk brake use using a bracket. This is the 8 cylinder spindle and is relatively lightweight and was originally designed for 10" drum and disc brake application. This spindle has slightly different steering arm/tie rod geometry than all future Falcon based spindles.
3. A 67-69 drum brake spindle which was adapted in 67 for disc brakes using a bracket. This and all future types are used for all engine applications. This spindle and ALL future Falcon series spindles have the same steering arm/tie rod geometry. These spindles are slightly beefier (except for the spindle pin itself) than 65-66.
4. A 68-69 purpose built disc brake spindle which used a sliding type single piston caliper. Essentially the same weight as the 67-69 drum spindles. Uses an 11.25" rotor.
5. A 70-73 drum brake spindle. The 70-73 drum and disc brake spindle has a larger pin and a slightly larger outer tie rod mounting hole on the steering arm than the earlier models.
6. A 70-73 purpose built disc brake spindle which is essentially identical with the 68-69 except that the pin is larger on the 70-73. Uses the same bracket and caliper as the 68-69. Uses the same rotor as 68-69. Uses the same outer tie rods as the drum spindles.
7. A purpose built disc brake spindle which was essentially identical to the 70-73 model except that it uses a more massive floating type single piston caliper and associated bracket. The outer tie rod mounting hole is larger than the 70-73. This spindle was used on the 74-77 Maverick/Comet and the 75-80 Granada/Monarch (Millions were made). Uses an 11" rotor.
8. A purpose built disc brake spindle used only on the Lincoln Versailles. It is identical to the Granada except that the lower ball joint mount hole is larger.
Mustang II and Pinto used a different type of spindle but the same calipers as the Granada/Maverick.
All 8 of these Falcon based knuckle/bracket systems used the same spindle to ball joint geometry and yield the same hub face to hub face width.
IMPORTANT NOTE Spindles types 2-8 have identical steering geometry! The steering arm for #1 (65-66 Mustang) are slightly different.
The Brake Hard Lines
The hard line that connects to the flex brake hose on 65-66 must be extended to accommodate differences between the front oriented wheel cylinder and the rear oriented brake caliper. All other years of Mustang are correctly oriented as is. The best hose to use with the swap for 65-66 is the one used on Pinto. It has the correct hose connections and is slightly longer than the Granada type.
It is essential to plumb in some type of proportioning valve when doing the swap. One may use the original type of combo valve used on most 70-late 80's mid sized Ford, or the adjustable needle valve type available from Summit and others. The combo valve incorporates proportioning, distribution, and leak detection in the same valve. I believe that if the correct combo valve is used it is far superior to the adjustable type valve. I say the correct valve because the internals are slightly different for some mid sized applications to account for different gross vehicle weights and weight distributions. I have examined many of the valves and only detect a difference for large size vs. mid sized vehicles. All used combo valves should be inspected before reuse. Many will have internal corrosion and/or are plugged up.
All driven Mustangs should have their original single reservoir master cylinders replaced with more modern dual reservoir master cylinders. The dual types isolate the hydraulics of the front wheels from that of the back. This gives you a measure of safety if a line fails since you will than only lose the front or the back brakes, not both.
Many recommend the manual brake master cylinder from 74 Maverick. This master cylinder has the fittings on the outboard side and is marginally easier to plumb. It also has a retained push rod which must be removed since the Mustangs push rod should be used. Power brake master cylinders from Maverick, Granada, and early Fox bodied cars work just also work well since they have the same piston bore. All Ford master cylinders have the same mounting dimensions. They mainly differ in piston bore size and fitting size and placement.
There are two issues relating to wheel fitment to swapped disc brakes.
1. The snout (bearing boss) of the Granada type rotor has a larger diameter than 68-73 rotor and will not fit through the 65-73 type wheels hub hole (2.8" vs. about 2.5"). This means that original steel wheels will not fit. Magnums will since they have the larger hub hole.
2. The calipers on 68-73 and Granada types may interfere with the inside of the wheel (they may stick out too far outboard). This may be remedied by slight grinding or by using thin wheel spacers.
Some 14" and most 15" aftermarket wheels will fit with the swaps.
The single piston calipers using the 11" rotor are plenty sufficient for this application. I feel that putting a bracket on early drum spindles and fitting oversized calipers and rotors is unwise. The pre 1970 spindles had a small pin and face flange and were not designed for that load. Most bracket type swap systems do not have a dust shield available for them.
There are some enthusiasts who insist that the use of Granada and by extension 68-73 swaps (Granada and all 67 and later spindles have the same steering geometry) on 65-66 will result in dire bump steer issues. There is a small difference in the steering arm geometry between 65-66 and later spindles. I don’t believe that the difference is significant to a driver car.
Availability of Parts
All of the small parts, the rotors, and remanufactured calipers are available for 68-73 and Granada swaps. They are very economical. Spindles and brackets are still available as salvage from junkyards, but they are becoming scarce and the condition of most are poor. I seldom find useable shields and about 1/3 of those I find have scored or corroded pins.
I refurbed a lot of Granada spindles during 2004-05 but eventually ran out of decent sources. I'm not saying you can't find a set if you look in the right place and are willing to remove them yourself. They cost around $100-150. For this you get a corroded mass of metal and grease. Unless you can varify their utility, don't bother with junkyard rotors or calipers.
These lacks of parts lead me to investigate the possibility of reproducing Granada type spindle/bracket/shield systems. Well, after 6 prototypes and a lot of money I now have production master molds made. I am currently having a first batch made. They will be available in late December.
They will include new very high strength steel spindles and brackets, better steel than the original steel spindles and iron bracket. All dimensions and geometry are carefully reproduced using laser measurement devices and machined on CNC equipment. Also included are new dust shields, mounting flanges, and proper bolts. I will also offer correct wheel bearings, small parts, master cylinders, calipers, slotted rotors, and a new OEM correct Ford style combo valve. This first model is best suited to application on 67-73 models. I will soon offer a second model specifically for 65-66. A third model will be a 70-73 type reproduction and then a 65-66 type based on the 70-73 type spindle. I'm also considering making a model specifically for 54-58 Ford.
If you are interested in any of these upcoming products you can email me at [email protected] . I will offer Stangnet and other related forum members a discount. Just ask. Remember, these products are not currently available.
a little fancier than what you might want, but this company sells Crossdrilled & Slotted Rotors for those that have done the Granada swap.
Straight bolt in peice
A lot of useful information degins. I have already bought some Granada spindles for my power steering 66 Mustang. If I am understanding you correctly you are saying that the Granada outer tie rod end will not work for my left hand (drivers side) connection. Does this mean that the Mustang Steve sleeve is the only current solution? I need to buy new outer tie rod ends and don't want to buy the sleeves and new tie rod ends unless I have too.
You have three choices.
1. Use your existing driver side outer tie rod with a sleeve. ($20)
2. Use a new ldriver side 66 power steering outer tie rod with a sleeve.($60)
3. Buy a special built tie rod that is correct. Mustang Plus sells one. ( $80)
Normal 69-70 calipers. Two bolts hold the caliper to the spindle, two for the anti-rattle clips on top, two for the sheet metal thingie on the back of the caliper. All different sizes too. Oh yeah, and the pins and clips that hold the outer pad in place are a pain in the butt too......
BTW the bearing snout on the Granada rotors can be turned down about 1/8" to accomodate early wheels with no problems. I had this done to a set recently when I had the surfaces turned. It cost me about $30 for the pair.
I guess Mustang Steve is going to have another customer for sleeves. I want new outers and I can't see giving Mustang Plus $80 for one when I can buy the combination cheaper. Thanks degin. I was about to buy new Granada outers.
ok forgot about the sheet metal deal, which i think is supposed tyo be some kind of caliper shield/brake hose protector. i've always just tossed them
You mean the round shield that covers the back of the rotor? Thats a dust shield that also has a scoop to direct air into the rotor. My Granada spindles had plastic extension scoops on them.
I always sorta wondered about those dust sheilds. What is exactly being sheilded there, is the engine being protected from brake dust? Why would you need to sheild the rotor from dust anyhow, one touch of the pedal and they're clean.
no, on the 68-69 at least, there is a metal shield for the caliper itself. best i can tell all it really does is protect the brake soft line right at the caliper..
i think those are more for rocks really, rather than dust. they also are supposed to keep things from getting wound up in the spindle/rotor assembly, like squirrels and skunks and pieces of rope or chain. until i started hanging out on stangnet i'd always referred to them and heard them referred to as just brake shields or brake guards, not dust shields.
Whether it actually does any shielding or not, it still directs air into the rotor. Alot of people run without them, but I prefer to keep them. It theoretically could protect hoses and balljoints from heat, I suppose.
bnickel - huh, never saw one before.
On the 69-70 calipers, at least, there is a stamped sheet metal piece that is attached to and wraps around the caliper. On some parts lists it is described as a "brace". There are some ribs stamped into it that serve to stiffen it a little.
I think the plastic cooling scoops on the Granada dust shields are kinda cool. I have seen more than one article on a car that has Granada brakes where the author describes the dust shield scoops as "custom-made".
Dust shields probably also help to direct air into the center of ventilated discs to help with cooling. Even shields without the plastic scoops have a vent (like a louver) punched into the forward-facing side.
I think your right. The shield (dust shield that is) comes within a 1/4" of the rotor along it’s' edge and does a good job of protecting the hub. It also does a good job of keeping mud and water off the inner surface of the rotor. But I guess that isn't the primary function since there is no special shielding of the outer surface of the rotor aside from the wheel. It must be fairly important since every OEM disc brake system I've seen uses one.
Most performance systems don't offer a brake shields. Many of those who put those kits together tell us that they are not necessary. I would venture that this opinion is reached because they lack the skill, the motivation, or the resources to design and manufacture one.
If anyone has had a brake problem/failure directly attributable to the lack of a dust shield, I would like to hear about it.
With all due respect, the auto industry wouldn't spend a penny on a part if it didn't materially affect their bottom line by making the product more marketable or through reduced warranty or product liability. Please keep in mind that I'm speaking about production driver cars, not highly maintained track cars.
No need to switch to decaf, I'm not arguing for or against dust shields. I am just curious what problems this item has prevented, if any. There may be many...I just haven't heard of them.
The inherent 'wisdom' of automobile manufacturers' design decisions is a shaky position....ask one of the many thousands of former Pinto owners
Watch out! You’re getting into Mustang territory when you talk about Pinto's problems. More seriously, I expect that the presence of the shield does as mentioned, that is protecting the hub and rotor from entanglements, dirt, rocks, and such. I agree with your cynicism about auto manufacturers when it comes to their negligence in engineering or them leaving off safety and performance parts, but I wouldn't be so cynical when they go to the expense of including them.