984.6gt
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Rick Swain 96-98 Heads vs 99 PI Heads
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Exh. flow and compression
Your absolutly right on the exhaust side as far as flow #'s with the bigger valves. But the key is your ratio to Intake flow. With a correct valve job and better valve ( not bigger valve ) and very minor port work the exhaust will flow almost 80% of the ported intake flow and that's without a pipe, the ported ex. on a P.I head with the bigger valves will flow well over 80% without a pipe and almost 90% at lower lifts. That's Big time overkill. Ford should of left the smaller ex.valves and opted for slightly bigger intakes to get more low and mid lift flow. Even The 4v.cobra R.R. race head used in the duralast off road truck that won baja only flows approx 72 % without a pipe and they're making well over 600 h.p. n/a. in fact a typical yates winston cup head is less than 70% of the Int and they're making over 760 hp with 358 cubes. remember bigger asn't always better. as far as compression, swapping PI heads to an early motor gains you 7-8 tenths of a ratio. a small gain sure but any gain is good. but that advantage is made by engine Compression, "Not" head design. a piston swap to bring the comp to where you want is always an option on any motor
Your absolutly right on the exhaust side as far as flow #'s with the bigger valves. But the key is your ratio to Intake flow. With a correct valve job and better valve ( not bigger valve ) and very minor port work the exhaust will flow almost 80% of the ported intake flow and that's without a pipe, the ported ex. on a P.I head with the bigger valves will flow well over 80% without a pipe and almost 90% at lower lifts. That's Big time overkill. Ford should of left the smaller ex.valves and opted for slightly bigger intakes to get more low and mid lift flow. Even The 4v.cobra R.R. race head used in the duralast off road truck that won baja only flows approx 72 % without a pipe and they're making well over 600 h.p. n/a. in fact a typical yates winston cup head is less than 70% of the Int and they're making over 760 hp with 358 cubes. remember bigger asn't always better. as far as compression, swapping PI heads to an early motor gains you 7-8 tenths of a ratio. a small gain sure but any gain is good. but that advantage is made by engine Compression, "Not" head design. a piston swap to bring the comp to where you want is always an option on any motor
add this in
for the last post. port length and port c.c determine your velocity. not sort turn radius, that would be the same as header size, you can have many differant shapes with the same result. you also said you compared yours to a "good" set of ported 98 heads, having heads ported and assuming they're "good" can be misleading also, as with the cnc ported heads that Ken B. had. also I'll mention again, we're doing a full scale matrix with all 3 style heads, ported and stock and with cam swaps on the same motor.
for the last post. port length and port c.c determine your velocity. not sort turn radius, that would be the same as header size, you can have many differant shapes with the same result. you also said you compared yours to a "good" set of ported 98 heads, having heads ported and assuming they're "good" can be misleading also, as with the cnc ported heads that Ken B. had. also I'll mention again, we're doing a full scale matrix with all 3 style heads, ported and stock and with cam swaps on the same motor.
for those of you wondering costs and numbers I already have them as I am getting ready to have this work done next week 1600 in labor for port and polish valve job including upgrade to PI valves cam install and timing I bought the livernois cams which run 500 and you need new valve springs Mr. Swain recommends Comp cams new springs which run around 210. all together parts and labor just under 2300, and Rick is a cool guy. He is quoting an approximate 80 horsepower over stock and I am choosing to get Cobra Killer's stage 2 port and polish bullit intake (though it isn't neccesary)! It's something to think about fellas hope the information helped 
cobra killer
Founding Member
tucunare said:
Send a set down..Im not going to argue the point.I know what 2valve heads do.I have been involved with them for along time trying to make the most power out of a 2valve set of heads.
What I consider a "good" set are a set ported by my porter.I can say they are good because the set of heads on my car are making serious numbers.
We can talk flow numbers all day long.The proof is in the HP numbers.
Get your best set together,we will test on my car back to back against the "best" P.I heads.
Anyone can claim anything they want on the internet.I'm willing to back what I claim up using my car,FAST unit for tuning,free dyno time and tuning.Apples to apples.The "best" non P.I. verses the "best" P.I. heads.
I'll promise,you wont come close..
Call me to set it up.Lets get this debate over with once and for all.
Your putting claims out there of great power to be had and the heads are equal..So,you have backed up data?Compare your heads to another porters P.I heads.Maybe your P.I heads aren't ported near as well as someones elses.I KNOW you wont make a set of P.I.'s flow like mine nor produce my numbers.
I'm game,are you?
Tim
JohnnyLangton
Founding Member
The car weighs over 3800 lbs,and is an automatic.984.6gt said:
Stock the car ran a 15.95@86
After all of the normal bolt-ons,and a set of '00 PI cams-in perfect...and I do mean perfect weather conditions,it ran a [email protected] before the headwork.
In hot,**** weather it's now ran a [email protected] no tuning changes at all.
If you can't comprehend the differences that running conditions and weather have on power output and et's,then you need to crawl back into your little hole over there in Sugarland and keep it to yourelf.
Go run your car at HRP in this weather and see how your et's look...
JL
JohnnyLangton
Founding Member
So you're gonna swap pistons to keep the CR the same for both heads so there's an even comparison?cobra killer said:
Your posts are starting to sound alot like that crook Wheeler's posts did.
Pompous,arrogant,and condescending.
JL
cobra killer
Founding Member
JohnnyLangton said:
LMFAO,no Im saying no freakin way 98 heads will make the power of P.I head.Prove me wrong.
I have backed up every claim I make.Your friend has not.
YOU nor HE has ANY hard core numbers but alot of claims.
JL,I'll gladly do ANYTING he wants to prove this B.S. wrong.
Show me a 800rwhp 2valve using 98 heads.
Hell show me a 2valve making 619rwhp with a strim,no cooler,98 heads,JBA shorty heads and a 2.5 inch exhaust.
Hell,the best with SVO heads,SVO intake,Strim,L/T' to date was 550rwhp with Ryan Archers car.I beat it by 70rwhp with less of a setup..Same FREAKIN day on the same dyno with the same tuner.
Put your money where your mouth is.Stop trying to promote something to these guys on the boards that is not backed up.You sound more like Wheeler..Talk alot of trash about how great something is with no proven results.
So partner,prove me wrong..I have the car,I have the numbers ,YOU show everyone Im wrong..How many dyno sheets do you want?HOW many can you provide.I'll talk it all I want,because I cant stand to see people mislead.
Back it up partner,until then,stop trying to mislead people.
I really would love to see you make 600rwhp with such a simple setup using these great P&P 98 heads.Its not going to happen,so STOP claiming it will unles you can prove it.
I can sell/produce 98 heads all day long,but I wont because they wont make the power the 99's will and I WILL NOT sell something under false claims.
Tim
984.6gt
Founding Member
Three weeks ago it went [email protected] off of a 1.9 60 ft on Nittos, this is with a fresh 98 Motor with STOCK Unported Heads, stock cams, and only pullies, gears and exhaust, the TA is not on the car and the bottle is on my buddies car, this was in 92+ DEGREE WEATHER. You can say all the crap you want, but you are WRONG the Non PI heads are Crap compared to PI heads, you are doing all kinds of work and are going to come up SO SHORT, but that is because you are HARD HEADED, it will cost you TONS of money to realize how wrong you are, but with your attitude I am almost glad you are wasting all your money with junk heads. Good Luck,JohnnyLangton said:
!! I would love to hear your dyno numbers. I bet your car won't crack 260. Just why the hell are you doing this with a heavy ass Thunderbird anyway, it makes no since, it is pointless, just get a Mustang if you want to make comparisons, becasue you TB is to different to even compare numbers and times with us, but like I said 13's is no feat buddy, there are LIGHT bolt-on 99+ GT with stock heads going 12's, and KenB who has ported 99+ heads is about to crack 11's NA, N2098GT ran 12.03 @111 while breaking in 4rth gear, with what heads, OH YEA PI HEADS, and you are trying to run mid 13's, get real. 
KenB
Founding Member
1) My heads were not CNC ported.
2) A similar set without any extra work made ~290rwhp. Not bad. That's SonicBlueCoupe's car. Obviously the work you did to improve the mid lift flow help tremendously, but the same heads still made decent power without it. He is running an almost identical setup as mine.
3) Tim has made the challege. Prove him wrong. I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate.
4) Show me 1 car making 320+ rwhp with non PI heads. Remeber I have the stock shortblock so my compression is stock.
Not trying to add wood to the fire, but this debate can be settled quickly. But I know it won't. Let's see some dyno sheets.
2) A similar set without any extra work made ~290rwhp. Not bad. That's SonicBlueCoupe's car. Obviously the work you did to improve the mid lift flow help tremendously, but the same heads still made decent power without it. He is running an almost identical setup as mine.
3) Tim has made the challege. Prove him wrong. I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate.
4) Show me 1 car making 320+ rwhp with non PI heads. Remeber I have the stock shortblock so my compression is stock.
Not trying to add wood to the fire, but this debate can be settled quickly. But I know it won't. Let's see some dyno sheets.
spring pricing
actually I quoted approx 190.00 for the springs. and for you Tim, apparently your only digesting part of my posts, We "ARE " doing a back to back/ apples to apples test. We'll find out for ourselves soon enough. We don't need other people testing for us but thanks for the offer. There is no debate to settle or challange to uphold, only what your making of it. if we're satisfed with the results and comfortable selling our product at a set price than that will be between the consumer and us. I just dropped in to this forum to see whats going on and I posted to correct a statement or two on airflow #'s. Forums should be for information and fun, sit down and lower your heartrate a little. I'll gaurantee the things I'm doing with this 98 head have not been done before. I'm sure they've been worked on by many and in several differant aspects. Let us have a crack at it now, wouldn't it be nice for the 96-98 guys not to have go through the head swap and all the changes that go along with it ? I'm trying to make it happen, sure there'll be a lot of doubters such as yourself, it's expected as long as these heads have been around. The minute you say " Cant be done " than the need for innovation becomes extinct. if we said " cant" back in 1990 in finding more h.p. with Cup motors and gave up they'd still be making 680 h.p. it's amazing what you can find with your hands tied under stringent rules. I'll not be posting much anymore as this takes up just too much dang time. arguements are a waste of time and fruitless. We'll let you know the results. P.S. what's with clown anyway, not my kind of entertainment
actually I quoted approx 190.00 for the springs. and for you Tim, apparently your only digesting part of my posts, We "ARE " doing a back to back/ apples to apples test. We'll find out for ourselves soon enough. We don't need other people testing for us but thanks for the offer. There is no debate to settle or challange to uphold, only what your making of it. if we're satisfed with the results and comfortable selling our product at a set price than that will be between the consumer and us. I just dropped in to this forum to see whats going on and I posted to correct a statement or two on airflow #'s. Forums should be for information and fun, sit down and lower your heartrate a little. I'll gaurantee the things I'm doing with this 98 head have not been done before. I'm sure they've been worked on by many and in several differant aspects. Let us have a crack at it now, wouldn't it be nice for the 96-98 guys not to have go through the head swap and all the changes that go along with it ? I'm trying to make it happen, sure there'll be a lot of doubters such as yourself, it's expected as long as these heads have been around. The minute you say " Cant be done " than the need for innovation becomes extinct. if we said " cant" back in 1990 in finding more h.p. with Cup motors and gave up they'd still be making 680 h.p. it's amazing what you can find with your hands tied under stringent rules. I'll not be posting much anymore as this takes up just too much dang time. arguements are a waste of time and fruitless. We'll let you know the results. P.S. what's with clown anyway, not my kind of entertainment
JohnnyLangton
Founding Member
OK..fine..Out of respect for the moderators..I'll keep this simple and calm.984.6gt said:Three weeks ago it went [email protected] off of a 1.9 60 ft on Nittos, this is with a fresh 98 Motor with STOCK Unported Heads, stock cams, and only pullies, gears and exhaust, the TA is not on the car and the bottle is on my buddies car, this was in 92+ DEGREE WEATHER. You can say all the crap you want, but you are WRONG the Non PI heads are Crap compared to PI heads, you are doing all kinds of work and are going to come up SO SHORT, but that is because you are HARD HEADED, it will cost you TONS of money to realize how wrong you are, but with your attitude I am almost glad you are wasting all your money with junk heads. Good Luck,
At almost 7 feet tall,I do not fit comfortably in a Mustang.I like the better handling,completely adjustable suspension,and the IRS on the Tbird.I drive it every day,and drive my family around in it at times.It served as our main mode of transport until I picked up an Ex-cab F-150 for the family ride.
Now..we'll compare apples to apples since I'm so different than the Mustang.
The quickest n/a 4.6L-auto Tbird that I know of is Mike V's '96 model.
It has PI heads,Bullitt intake manifold,all of the other bolt-ons, complete mandrel bent 2.5" exhaust with X-pipe,3.73's and a high stall convertor.
It's ran a 13.71 or a 13.77(I can't honestly remember which it was),and this was in nice cool air.Both my car,and Mike's weigh in excess of 3800 lbs.I'm almost the same as him for mods,except I'm running the stock replacement Ford plastic intake manifiold(replaced for cracking),a set of ported non-PI's,and compression bent exhaust(2.5" in front,and 2.25 after the X on my car).
The way you make it sound..how could I be anywhere near his times?
This car is never going to be as fast as a comparably modded Mustang-plain and simple.I know that,and I don't have a problem with it.
Starting from a high 15 to low 16 second car,and getting it to the 13's is not bad IMO.
Matter of fact..there are only three n/a 4.6L TBirds in the 13's.
Hell,getting one of these land barges into the 11's is a feat,even with a SC and SVO or PI heads-ported or not.
You'll get the dyno numbers you wanna see..soon enough.
JL
984.6gt
Founding Member
I am confused here, I mean 3800 is heavy but not that heavy, a 99+ Mustang with the mods you listed for the fastest T-Bird NA would run LOW LOW 12's, I have a heard time beleiving that the 600 pounds causes almost 2 FULL seconds in a 1/4 mile. That TB should run 12's all day long.JohnnyLangton said:
98 heads
Im honestly interested to see what rick's 98 heads will do. There are alot of paces that port heads, and each place may get differant flow numbers,I think he knows what he is doing.Im curious to see what can be done though with the 98 heads.
Im honestly interested to see what rick's 98 heads will do. There are alot of paces that port heads, and each place may get differant flow numbers,I think he knows what he is doing.Im curious to see what can be done though with the 98 heads.
joker12552
Founding Member
Im with Cobra Killer, the flow numbers dont mean anything if you can't put them on a car and get the true results. Im looking into getting a set of heads soon and I would really love to see these non PI numbers proven.
PI cams and Heads
I have to agree with Johny. The old heads WILL flow decently with the bigger exhaust valve. I have seen the STOCK flow numbers. The PI exhaust kicks butt in stock form. The older heads and intake do make more hp and tq below 3800 rpms. This helps the AUTO cars with stock or nearly stock converters. Peak numbers are nice but AVERAGE useable numbers are what win. Give the guy a chance to prove his point with ET's run against people at the SAME place at the SAME time. I do not care what someone clear across the country can do. Lets see a side by side race. Been there and done that. I have never held a record but HAVE beaten record holders on my home track. That is why records are set at some tracks but not at others.
I have to agree with Johny. The old heads WILL flow decently with the bigger exhaust valve. I have seen the STOCK flow numbers. The PI exhaust kicks butt in stock form. The older heads and intake do make more hp and tq below 3800 rpms. This helps the AUTO cars with stock or nearly stock converters. Peak numbers are nice but AVERAGE useable numbers are what win. Give the guy a chance to prove his point with ET's run against people at the SAME place at the SAME time. I do not care what someone clear across the country can do. Lets see a side by side race. Been there and done that. I have never held a record but HAVE beaten record holders on my home track. That is why records are set at some tracks but not at others.
cobra killer
Founding Member
david l gary said:
I have to agree with Johny. The old heads WILL flow decently with the bigger exhaust valve. I have seen the STOCK flow numbers. The PI exhaust kicks butt in stock form. The older heads and intake do make more hp and tq below 3800 rpms. This helps the AUTO cars with stock or nearly stock converters. Peak numbers are nice but AVERAGE useable numbers are what win. Give the guy a chance to prove his point with ET's run against people at the SAME place at the SAME time. I do not care what someone clear across the country can do. Lets see a side by side race. Been there and done that. I have never held a record but HAVE beaten record holders on my home track. That is why records are set at some tracks but not at others.
A good set of P.I heads flow 248/225..thats what we get.
The 2valve P.I heads on my car flow alot more then that.
I want to see a 98 head do that and make the power,then people can say they make the same power.
Until then,there is no proof just speculation.
I never said they wouldn't make descent numbers,they will and I stated that earlier back.The problem I have is a statement that they will perform equally to a very good set of P.I heads.Thats the statement I want to see backed up.
If he can get descent HP numbers out of them then thats a great option for the 96-98 crowd.I hope he can.I dont think he'll hit what a P.I will tho.
I wish them luck,but I dont think they will get anywhere near what I've seen come out of P.I heads.
Tim
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