Rough Idle Runs Rich No Codes

Chad91gt

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I'm sure this question has been asked before. My situation is a little different and I'm trying to figure out where to start. I just bought a 1993 mustang gt.. 5speed. It has. CAI.. and full exhaust . Shortys.. xpipe..flows.. also looks like s 76mm cl maf. Now my problem is that it idles rough.. all the time .. it will surge a little and smells rich and I have no codes .. when I first start it up in the morning I have to give it gas for a bit .. if not it will start up and just die right away..i heard stories about the iac.or tps.... and cl 76mm acting goofy. Just trying to figure out where should I start looking first and what order should I go in to eliminate what's causing all this with out running in circles .. Any ideas what's causing this ? Or what order I should go to figure out what's causing this . .? Any ideas would be helpful.. thank you
 
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Chad91gt

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I will have to pick one up
Put a stock 55 MAF meter on and see how it runs.
I will have to pick one up.. it came with the c&l 76mm. Why would that cause a problem. Isn't it suppose to be a performance part?
 

Mustang5L5

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When you say no codes, you got three code 11s? Two with engine off and one with engine running?

It's not like obd2 and you need to start the engine to get the KOER codes. If you are running rich, the KOER codes will tell the story
 

Chad91gt

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When you say no codes, you got three code 11s? Two with engine off and one with engine running?

It's not like obd2 and you need to start the engine to get the KOER codes. If you are running rich, the KOER codes will tell the story
I mean I don't have any codes and there is no check engine light
 

Mustang5L5

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I mean I don't have any codes and there is no check engine light
Check engine light only comes on with a few of the actual codes. i believe only 15 of the possible 100 trip the light.

If you don't get any codes you aren't pulling them correctly. A code 11 is "system pass" if you aren't getting anything you need to retry otherwise it is a possible clue towards some ECU issues. That's why it's important to try pulling them again
 
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Chad91gt

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Check engine light only comes on with a few of the actual codes. i believe only 15 of the possible 100 trip the light.

If you don't get any codes you aren't pulling them correctly. A code 11 is "system pass" if you aren't getting anything you need to retry otherwise it is a possible clue towards some ECU issues. That's why it's important to try pulling them again
So I ran a KOEO test. To codes popped up. 67 and 41.. any ideas what the problem could be
 

Mustang5L5

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Code 67 means either the trans wasn't in nuetral or the clutch wasn't pushed in. Often the NGS on top of the t5 is broken or not connected. This does affect idle strategy.

Code 41 can be a few things. Usually it's a bad o2 sensor, but could also be a vac leak. Code 41 is passenger side lean condition. One quick check is to swap the o2 sensors, erase, and rerun the codes and see if the code 41 turns into a code 91(drivers side.

An exhaust or vac leak could aslo contribute to the code 41
 

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Code 67
Revised 18-Mar-2017 to include warning about the necessity of having a 5 speed O2 Sensor wiring harness when bypassing the wiring for test purposes

Cause of problem:
Clutch not depressed (5 speed) or car not in neutral (5 speed and auto) or not in park (auto) or A/C in On position when codes where dumped. Possible neutral safety switch or wiring problem. This code will prevent you from running the Key On Engine On tests.

External evidence from other sources claims that a code 67 can cause an idle surge condition. Do try to find and fix any issues with the switch and wiring if you get a code 67.

What the NSS (Neutral Safety Switch) does:
5 speed transmission: It has no connection with the starter, and the engine can be cranked without it being connected.
Auto transmission: It is the safety interlock that prevents the starter from cranking the engine with the transmission in gear.
What it does for both 5 speed and auto transmission cars:
The computer wants to make sure the A/C is off due to the added load on the engine for the engine running computer diagnostic tests. It also checks to see that the transmission is in Neutral (5 speed and auto transmission) and the clutch depressed (T5, T56, Tremec 3550 & TKO)). This prevents the diagnostics from being run when the car is driven. Key On Engine Running test mode takes the throttle control away from the driver for several tests. This could prove hazardous if the computer was jumpered into test mode and then driven.

The following is for 5 speed cars only. Do not do this unless you are sure that you have a 5 speed O2 Sensor harness!!!! Smoke, sparks and expensive pain in the wallet may ensue if you don’t.
The NSS code 67 can be bypassed for testing. You will need to temporarily ground computer pin 30 to the chassis. Computer pin 30 uses a Lt blue/yellow wire. Remove the passenger side kick panel and then remove the plastic cover from the computer wiring connector. Use a safety pin to probe the connector from the rear. Jumper the safety pin to the ground near the computer.
Be sure to remove the jumper BEFORE attempting to drive the car!!!





Code 41 or 91. Or 43 Three digit code 172 or 176 - O2 sensor indicates system lean. Look for a vacuum leak or failing O2 sensor.

Revised 20-July-2017 to add note that the 94-95 uses a 4 wire O2 sensor.

Code 41 is the passenger side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.
Code 91 is the driver side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.

Code 172 is the passenger side sensor as viewed from the driver's seat.
Code 176 is the driver side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.

Code 43 is not side specific according to the Probst Ford Fuel injection book.

The computer sees a lean mixture signal coming from the O2 sensors and tries to compensate by adding more fuel. Many times the end result is an engine that runs pig rich and stinks of unburned fuel.

The following is a Quote from Charles O. Probst, Ford fuel Injection & Electronic Engine control:
"When the mixture is lean, the exhaust gas has oxygen, about the same amount as the ambient air. So the sensor will generate less than 400 Millivolts. Remember lean = less voltage.

When the mixture is rich, there's less oxygen in the exhaust than in the ambient air , so voltage is generated between the two sides of the tip. The voltage is greater than 600 millivolts. Remember rich = more voltage.

Here's a tip: the newer the sensor, the more the voltage changes, swinging from as low as 0.1 volt to as much as 0.9 volt. As an oxygen sensor ages, the voltage changes get smaller and slower - the voltage change lags behind the change in exhaust gas oxygen.

Because the oxygen sensor generates its own voltage, never apply voltage and never measure resistance of the sensor circuit. To measure voltage signals, use an analog voltmeter with a high input impedance, at least 10 megohms. Remember, a digital voltmeter will average a changing voltage." End Quote

Testing the O2 sensors 87-93 5.0 Mustangs
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear.

Disconnect the O2 sensor from the harness and use the body side O2 sensor harness as the starting point for testing. Do not measure the resistance of the O2 sensor , you may damage it. Resistance measurements for the O2 sensor harness are made with one meter lead on the O2 sensor harness and the other meter lead on the computer wire or pin for the O2 sensor.

Computer wiring harness connector, computer side.

Backside view of the computer wiring connector:


87-90 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Dark blue/Lt green – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Dark Green/Pink – RH O2 sensor
The computer pins are 29 (L\RH O2 with a dark green/pink wire) and 43 (LH O2 with a dark blue/pink wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.

91-93 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a Gray/Lt blue wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a Red/Black wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


Testing the O2 sensors 94-95 5.0 Mustangs; note that the 94-95 uses a 4 wire O2 sensor.
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a red/black wire) and 27 (RH O2 with a gray/lt blue wire). Use pin 32 (gray/red wire) to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter. Do not attempt to measure the resistance of the O2 sensors, it may damage them.

Testing the O2 sensor wiring harness
Most of the common multimeters have a resistance scale. Be sure the O2 sensors are disconnected and measure the resistance from the O2 sensor body harness to the pins on the computer. Using the Low Ohms range (usually 200 Ohms) you should see less than 1.5 Ohms.

87-90 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Dark blue/Lt green – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Dark Green/Pink – RH O2 sensor
Disconnect the connector from the O2 sensor and measure the resistance:
From the Dark blue/Lt green wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Dark blue/Lt green wire on the computer pin 43
From the Dark Green/Pink wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Dark Green/Pink wire on the computer pin 29

91-93 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
Disconnect the connector from the O2 sensor and measure the resistance:
From the Red/Black wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Red/Black wire on the computer pin 43
From the Dark Green/Pink Gray/Lt blue wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Gray/Lt blue wire on the computer pin 29

94-95 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 29 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 27 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
From the Red/Black wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Red/Black wire on the computer pin 29
From the Dark Green/Pink Gray/Lt blue wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Gray/Lt blue wire on the computer pin 27

There is a connector between the body harness and the O2 sensor harness. Make sure the connectors are mated together, the contacts and wiring are not damaged and the contacts are clean and not coated with oil.

The O2 sensor ground (orange wire with a ring terminal on it) is in the wiring harness for the fuel injection wiring. I grounded mine to one of the intake manifold bolts

Check the fuel pressure – the fuel pressure is 37-41 PSI with the vacuum disconnected and the engine idling. Fuel pressure out of range can cause the 41 & 91 codes together. It will not cause a single code, only both codes together.

Make sure you have the proper 3 wire O2 sensors. Only the 4 cylinder cars used a 4 wire sensor, which is not compatible with the V8 wiring harness. The exception is that the 94-95 uses a 4 wire O2 sensor.

Replace the O2 sensors in pairs if replacement is indicated. If one is weak or bad, the other one probably isn't far behind.

Code 41 can also be due to carbon plugging the driver’s side Thermactor air crossover tube on the back of the engine. The tube fills up with carbon and does not pass air to the driver’s side head ports. This puts an excess amount of air in the passenger side exhaust and can set the code 41. Remove the tube and clean it out so that both sides get good airflow: this may be more difficult than it sounds. You need something like a mini rotor-rooter to do the job because of the curves in the tube. Something like the outer spiral jacket of a flexible push-pull cable may be the thing that does the trick.

If you get only code 41 and have changed the sensor, look for vacuum leaks. This is especially true if you are having idle problems. The small plastic tubing is very brittle after many years of the heating it receives. Replace the tubing and check the PVC and the hoses connected to it.
 
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