School us on engines...

This is weird because Matt and I are just taking turns using my laptop here at the shop.:D But the wet flow testing is very interesting. We made a homemade rig here a while back. Watching the green dye being drawn into the acrylic cylinder and seeing how it behaves around the combustion chamber and exhaust valve is very interesting, but we soon discovered that is was also very messy. Very messy! I looked like the Hulk for days.

Joe Mondello is supposed to have a complete set of patented parts to convert an existing dry flow bench to wet. He also is supposed to have his own WFB-2000 wet-flow bench that is very reliable and has a recovery system that eliminates the mess. That stuff just ain't cheap.

I think on the flow/velocity ratios, you will get some varying opinions from shop to shop. But I would honestly have to say that most of the pro's would agree that the flow ratios are more important. typically a street/strip head will perform the best with a 80-85% flow ratio. Some all out Pro Stock or Pro Mod heads can have as low as a 65% flow ratio and still make the most power.

Another thing that is a big player in cylinder head performance is the primary seat angle, venturi undercut angle, venturi radii, and backcut angle. Most of the street/strip heads to this day still use a 45° primary seat angle, but some of the more serious heads out there are starting to use a much steeper primary seat angle. There are also a number of production heads out there now using 50º, 52º, and up to a 55º primary seat.

There is a guy here in Tampa (he has asked not to be named) that has experimented with a 4.6 2v head using 55° primary seat angles. A 2000 Mustang GT with his heads made 356 to the tire on a MD-250 Mustang dyno. This was a N/A car with no nitrous and standard tension rings with a stock oil pan. I cringe when I hear these kids proclaim that 320-330 RWHP is the absolute max out of a N/A 4.6 2V. They just don't understand the technology that is out there nowadays.
 
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^Thats generally the adverage they make.A local guy has VT stg 2 heads, custom VT stg 2/3 cams, forged high compression 284, P51 intake manifold, ect, ect,ect....331RWHP. And honestly thats on the highside of MOST H/C 2Vs.

Iv been around here a while, and seen numoruous dyno graphs of HCI 2Vs...not just on here but on other sites all accross the web....and again most are in that 320-330RWHP range. If you somehow convince me that thats not the case, ill start telling the adverage person to expect more.....

Another thing is that I do not trust mustang dynos at all....you should know that you cannot take the #s they show and compare them to everyone else. You can make that dyno show whatever the heck you want....based on alot of input that the operator has to enter. They are great for tuning....but thats it in my book. :)

EDIT: and yes I know you said "MAX" but I dont want any confusion with people....because for the adverage person that is the MAX they will see.
 
^Thats generally the adverage they make.A local guy has VT stg 2 heads, custom VT stg 2/3 cams, forged high compression 284, P51 intake manifold, ect, ect,ect....331RWHP. And honestly thats on the highside of MOST H/C 2Vs.

Iv been around here a while, and seen numoruous dyno graphs of HCI 2Vs...not just on here but on other sites all accross the web....and again most are in that 320-330RWHP range. If you somehow convince me that thats not the case, ill start telling the adverage person to expect more.....

Another thing is that I do not trust mustang dynos at all....you should know that you cannot take the #s they show and compare them to everyone else. You can make that dyno show whatever the heck you want....based on alot of input that the operator has to enter. They are great for tuning....but thats it in my book. :)

EDIT: and yes I know you said "MAX" but I dont want any confusion with people....because for the adverage person that is the MAX they will see.

You just said that a guy you know put 331 to the tire with Stage 2 cams. Do you even realize how much is left on the table with most "Stage 2" heads out there? A bunch is the answer. 350 is a breeze with professionally hand fully ported heads. (READ: FULLY PORTED) Start playing with low tension rings, proper crankcase vacuum, an aftermarket oil pan, increased DCR, larger primary seat angles, venturi radii taper, proper flow ratios, tuned intake runners, etc., etc., you are talking 370 or more easy to the tire on a 4.6 2V motor.

Just because most people only do what everybody else does and do not take advantage of the technology and resources out there to make their combination better than the boring norm, doesn't mean it automatically cannot be done. There are at least 5-6 4.6 2V N/A Mustang GT's I personally know of here in the Tampa area making over 350 to the tire on a Mustang Dyno. And guess what? They all have the same heads done by a well known guy here in Tampa. ;) So start telling your average friends to expect more!

I agree that Mustang dyno's typically show less HP than SuperFlow's or Dyno Jet's, but that is because the Mustang dynos are run by default in the eddy current loading mode. Mustang dynos can also be run in inertia mode to show Dyno Jet-like ego-inflated numbers. Even SuperFlow's and Dyno Jet's can be run in either eddy current loading or inertia mode. The difference is that the SuperFlow's and Dyno Jet's are run in inertia mode by default.

Eddy Current loading is the only way to go as it is more realistic and provides numbers that will correlate more acccuratelty with actual track performance. Every competent dyno operator will run the dyno with eddy current loading whether or not they have a Mustang or Dyno Jet. If they are running the dyno with just inertia then of course your number will be higher, but the only thing those are good for is to stroke your ego.

The majority of dyno operating software out there expects the operator to manually input the present humidity, whether or not is a Dyno Jet or Mustang dyno. You can make any dyno out there show what you want, hopefully you are not hanging around with devious tuners that would manipulate the data like that.
 
No, I said CUSTOM STG2/3 ....as in between stg 2 and 3. Its hotter than the adverage cams people put in their cars. BTW I never said it CANT be done :). Its just that it takes alot to get them past 330. So i still stand by what I tell people...if they ask "hey im going to through on some heads to my cammed up GT...what can I expect?" . Im going to say 320RWHP at best.

Sure if he HAPPENS to live in tampa and buys an uber expencive setof heads, gets some LTs custom built to his specs from kooks, and rigs up a crank case evac system off of the header collectors, ect....than yea I can see 350+RWHP. But comeon man...get real here, how many people are going to do that and doesnt say anything about it?
And how many people would do that anyways? NOT MANY. It would be totally wrong for me to tell them to expect "350RWHP if you get the right heads" . Thats just a false hope and they have <1% of actually getting a H/C setup capable of doing that....and i am big against shooting high. I am realistic...iv been cheated out too much with people shooting high #s around.

But spending $$$$$$$$$$$ on hand ported heads from a guy in tampa and throwing in a hot street cams doesnt count for what most people can get...or want. Im betting those heads cost quite abit more than the adverage "all motor" guy will spend to boot.

As far as the dynos are conserned...there are more differences than just default settings....otherwise noone would spend the extra cash to get the "mustang" dynos.
The mustang dynos have setpoints for the drag coefficient, along with the weight of the vehicle...and other setpoints. All of these can easily be altered and WILL change your dyno #s. Its not that easy with the dyno jet....sure they CAN alter #s on a dyno jet...but its not as easy to do.

Thats why I dont like comparing #s from a mustang dyno...I know they are superiour dynos, with many more features, and are specifically designed to be run using "eddy current". I didnt know dynojets could be run like that....infact I have never heard of anyone actually doing that.

And nope :D . Talk to Tim @ MPH....his #s are dead on as he can get them. He doesnt fudge #s and everyone around here knows that.

I think alot of people mess with #s via SAE smoothing....and on cold days (better than a "standard" day) they will give out STD #s thats are not corrected down with the SAE system. But im no expert on that.
Nice chatting with you :D Just good to see some competent peeps on here haha.

And dont take my lack of smilys wrong...iv just worked 12 hours, and im not exactly "chipper" right now lol. BED TIME!
 
These cars I know over of over 350 didn't have custom stepped headers, low-tension rings with crankcase vacuum, or "fancy heads." BTW header collector evacuators are only successful on collectors that open up straight into atmosphere (open headers). Most street guys will use a variable electric vacuum pump to pull vacuum on the crankcase IF they set it up that way. None of the cars I mentioned are pulling crankcase vacuum. These guys just have a properly worked fully hand ported head set up better than the average 4.6 2V head and reasonable grind cams. This guy charges $2,200 for a set of assembled heads. That includes your choice of spring, Ferrea valves, Ti retainers/locks, 55°seat angle, and of course the flow sheet. Sure that is slightly more than the average set of ported heads. I' will be putting a set of these heads on my 2001 GT very soon. $2,200 is not that much more than an average fully ported head and if I've said it once I've said it million times, in the go fast world you get what you pay for.;)

Yes you can vary the resistance of the PAU (power absorption unit) input on the Mustang Dynos, but the operating software knows how much load you are applying and automatically compensates for the calculated power measured. Pound for pound the Mustang chassis dynos and the Dyno Jet dynos are similarly priced. They are just two different dynos.

Which is better?.. well NASCAR and most of the NHRA Pro Stock teams use Dyno Jets, while a lot of the Outlaw, Pro 5.0, and NMRA teams use Mustang Dynos. If I had to buy one all over again, it would probably be an eddy current Dyno Jet.
 
What type of shop do you guys have down there? I have a house in St Pete and i'd like to see some of these high hp n/a 2V's next time i'm down. Not that i'm doubting i just like checking out other modulars.
 
What type of shop do you guys have down there? I have a house in St Pete and i'd like to see some of these high hp n/a 2V's next time i'm down. Not that i'm doubting i just like checking out other modulars.

Go talk to Sam over at Coastal Dyno (hope I am allowed to say that name on here:)) next time you are down. That's where these cars came from and were dyno'd. Coastal mainly focuses on Cobras, but they will do anything performance related. Sam is a good guy and very knowledeable. This guy(doesn't work for Coastal and I cannot say his name) that ports these 2V heads does heads for some of the fastest cars in the country.

My "little" shop is out here in Clearwater. I just moved here from TX and left my chassis shop behind. My involvment with my shop here has evolved into more of a part time hobby as of late. I am very busy with my software consulting and web design/PC business. LOL, in fact we are using the shop office as a makeshift office for my computer business.:D

BTW, St. Pete is a nice area. It has changed so much in just the short time I have been here. Seems like there is a lot of money being poured into the downtown area. When do you plan on coming down again?
 
How convenient of you you to magically exclude the info right above that very same post that you quoted me from:



Do you feel enlightned? :)




I did not leave it out, I was readign the graph you posted. we can take a graph from anything we want and claim it is something else. the graph you posted CLEARLY said Ported.

No I dont feel enlightened. the reason I dont frequent this site is because of people like you just out to bash on people and make thenselves feel high and mighty... and dont say you are not out to do that. If not you wouldnt use phrases asking if people feel enlightened.:notnice:
 
The Elephant term did not come out a single day before the first 426ci Hemi was put together....how could it have nobody except for the design team had even seen or heard of the motor yet. LOL When that first 426ci Hemi rolled out into a car in 1964...shops sarted getting their hands on it and realized the abnormally big dimensions. The name "elephant" started being thrown around and it just sorta stuck. Who calls the LS1 the millenium motor?? Kevin (laserred01GT) and I have been in this business as partners for a while now. Over the years the majority of the cars we have worked with were GM....and hence the Gen III LSx motors. The first Gen III was the LS1 and it was built in 1996 only to be put into the first C5 Corvette in 1997 and then the F-Body in 1998. We talk to a good portion of some of most well know LSx builders in the country and we have never heard anyone in the business EVER call the LS1 the millenium motor...LOL

Hey Stan you seem to have a pretty good understanding of motors...ask Kevin(laserred01GT) about flourescent wet flow testing.:nice:
I read it a few years back from a Vette article. I could give a **** less how long you have been doing aynthing. Dont assume I dont know information regarding the ls1 engine. Makes you look like an ass.

Dont assume.
 
i knew if i stayed out of this for a while you guys would alienate others in here with all of your 5-6 "350 whp" stangs that are down there. ported by a "guy" you know. WE HAVE ALL HEARD OF THOSE GUYS PROMISING 370 RWHP DAILY DRIVER. EASILY MAKE 370 RW? hell those heads flow better than most if not any 3v out there. i tell you i will believe your story. i will ask people that are winning events or building the motors that are winning events and see what they say. if they concur i will submit in writing in here that you are the king.
 
I did not leave it out, I was readign the graph you posted. we can take a graph from anything we want and claim it is something else. the graph you posted CLEARLY said Ported.

No I dont feel enlightened. the reason I dont frequent this site is because of people like you just out to bash on people and make thenselves feel high and mighty... and dont say you are not out to do that. If not you wouldnt use phrases asking if people feel enlightened.:notnice:


Yes, you did leave it out. The below work up represents BONE STOCK LS2 heads. NOT PORTED. And they even have the factory springs. We didn't use a weak spring like some shops will to skew the numbers. This is the SF-1020 workup I posted, NOT the SF-600 flow graph showing ported LS2 heads:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y197/fastta/ls2_headflow_SF1020.jpg

This is where it all went wrong for you Steeda:
01Steeda said:
here is the problem I see, Bill is refering to bone stock heads and the charts you posted are referring to ported heads, where is he wrong? please enlighten us?

Please enlighten us as to your personal experience that would shed some light on all this cylinder head technology.

Bashing??? LOL, I needed a good laugh today.:p

The only people in here that are losing self control and resorting to personal attacks are you, billfisher, and now mogs01gt.
 
ok, guys let me put my knowledge in a nutshell.

ports are venturi's. pinch it and then widen it and you hurt it.
hit the valve as close to 90* as possible
take care with short side or lose boundary layer adhesion
90% throat below margin is max on intake 80% exhaust
stepped headers and collector extensions, opened are best for everall torque curve.
collector merge angle is critical.
vacuum the crankcase preferably with collector vacuum pump otherwise
low tension rings rule
gas ports on race only
small valves as possible on street cars for overall performance
define what the customer needs and give him that.
gearing to match mph
spool if necessary
match header design with rpm band
tunnel ram it if you can
there's more,but that's what i need to know.
i trust experts to know the rest.
experts with a rep.


i spend my time innovating combinations. not flowbenching. i am willing to bury the hatchet.
i trust a limited few with their heads. even fewer with my money.

i have built plenty of chevy's in my time. they were burners. not because they were chevy's but because i matched needs with performance combo. chevy sucks anyway. even if it has paid the bills.
 
Yes, you did leave it out. The below work up represents BONE STOCK LS2 heads. NOT PORTED. And they even have the factory springs. We didn't use a weak spring like some shops will to skew the numbers. This is the SF-1020 workup I posted, NOT the SF-600 flow graph showing ported LS2 heads:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y197/fastta/ls2_headflow_SF1020.jpg

This is where it all went wrong for you Steeda:


Please enlighten us as to your personal experience that would shed some light on all this cylinder head technology.

Bashing??? LOL, I needed a good laugh today.:p

The only people in here that are losing self control and resorting to personal attacks are you, billfisher, and now mogs01gt.

you need to go back and look at post 16, right below that is the graph I am referring to... good way to overlook the obviuos.

and actually where it went wrong, was even reading your post. I dont know didly about head flow and never claimed to... but I dont care if you invented the cylinder head. with your attitude I would rather learn from a less experienced person. you seem to think no one could teach you anything... good luck with that.
 
you need to go back and look at post 16, right below that is the graph I am referring to... good way to overlook the obviuos.

and actually where it went wrong, was even reading your post. I dont know didly about head flow and never claimed to... but I dont care if you invented the cylinder head. with your attitude I would rather learn from a less experienced person. you seem to think no one could teach you anything... good luck with that.

The exact response I would expect from someone who has run out of something to say to try and make themselves look cool.

By the way... and refresh my memory.... what have you contributed to this discussion by means of technical advise, personal experience, or factual data or information??
 
here is the problem I see, Bill is refering to bone stock heads and the charts you posted are referring to ported heads, where is he wrong? please enlighten us?

Actually this was the source of your vast confusion. You conveniently pick apart peoples posts and take things out of context just so you can twist things around and draw attention to yourselves, as negative and off topic as it may be. People like you are all the same. You come into a perfectly good motor discussion and the talk is all above your head, so the only thing your mind can think of to do is to stir up some controversy. Maybe your head is still spinning from Hurricane Katrina.

Hey Matt, you know what they say - Intelligence is easy to spot, it's the alternative that's even easier.:canada:
 
This sums it up nicely:

if i don't get everything right, i'm ok with that. again feel free to correct me. i am wrong all of the time.

i can only base my information on reading others findings. you observations are duly noted and filed.

i have enough of a pysics back ground to comprehend.

I'll never forget that one...LOL.

you were 11 and picking you nose when i started this crap.

for you to quote an encyclopedia that doesn'y know the answer, you are losing this argument. you don't know the real history. you are sad. just sad.

maybe they call the 426 the elephant also, but it isn't the elephant to me or others that know the original hemi.

LOL

And then the cream of the crop thus far, drumroll please:

i retract those staements. i can be a bar of lead sometimes.
again my apologies for the unremarkable things i say sometimes.