T-5 questions, help from T5 gurus is appreciated

[wicked93gs]

alright, heres the deal, I have a T5 from a 2003 v6 mustang with some 30k miles on it and am thinking about mating it up to a 289/302/351 block...now from what i have learned the bolt pattern for the v6 is the same as the v8...I now the input shaft length is different from earlier WC T5s, from what I have learned on modern drivelines website was that the reason for this difference actually has nothing to do with the fact it went on a v6 and everything to do with the dimensions of the SN95 chasis being different from the fox chasis...in other words, the shifter hole was further back, so they decided to lengthen the input shaft and the bellhousing to match up to the new shifter location, if this is true...then I should be able to use the v6 t5 just fine without changing the input shaft provided I also use the v6 bellhousing(I should also be able to swap clutch forks and use a cable clutch) this will of course place the shifter an inch further back than the majority of the t5 swaps in a classic mustang...but thats a good thing considering how far forward it is to begine with....anyway, I was asking for a second(and third and fourth) opinion on my logic here, as to whether my assumptions are correct

 

[iapexl8r]

on the eairly mustangs the t-5 (that came behind the 5.0l motor) when installed lines up to the existing hole for the shifter. So the shifter is exactly where the stock shifter was. The reason it seems farther away is most people use a late model mustang shifter handle that is either straight up or forward. they make them that are bent back and it makes a big difference. chris

 

[tweet66]

I just did this same swap with a 98 V6 T5. I did use the V8 bell though since the V6 bell is designed to work with a 164 tooth flywheel, while the V8 runs a 157 tooth. It can be done, you just need to find a 164 tooth wheel with the correct balance for your year engine. The V6 has some odd ball balance like 32oz or something. This also creates an issue with the starter obviously. As far as shifter alignment in the hole, I haven't had any issues. I'm just trying to come up with a hydraulic clutch setup that uses over the counter parts as opposed to spending 300 to 400 dollars on the JMC kit. I haven't been able to find out the exact amount of clutch fork throw/movement with a stock cable so I can calculate the size of the m/c and salve pistons to duplicate that movement with hydraulics.

 

[wicked93gs]

the input shaft length didnt give you any trouble? the clutch still engages properly? and why not use a cable clutch? but then, I just hate hydraulic clutches

 

[tweet66]

The input shaft isn't an issue as long as you use the right bell housing. I had a V6 and V8 bell lying around so I measured both and all the critical dimensions are the same. I only noticed the difference in the flywheels when I put a V8 block plate to the V6 bell and the holes didn't line up. A couple of searches later and I found out about the flywheel size diffence. As far as the clutch cable, with my long tube headers there's no where to run the cable without contacting the tubes and buring the cable up. I'm not a big hyd. clutch fan myself but I've gotten used to them on my daily driver 86 Toyota 4 Runner.

 

[wicked93gs]

ok...so all I need to do is find a v8 bellhousing then? good...mainly because I didnt want to go looking for a v8 t5 in used condition since they tend to be abused much more than the v6 version....did you have to use a spacer between the block and bellhousing?

p.s. could I alternatively just use a 164 tooth flywheel? I notice I can get one for the 289/302/351(or rather that I can get a flexplate....which leads me to believe flywheels are available too)

 

[BarnStang]

I'm also curious about the input shaft length. All the 3.8 L T5's have an input shaft length of 7.85 inches. Even with the 5.0 bell, it should still be too long. THe 79-93 5.0 bell would only accomodate 7.18 inch input shaft. How does the input shaft not bottom out on the pilot bushing/bearing?
Here is the ID chart. I can't find the source of this chart anymore. ANyone remember what site this chart was on?
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=732899

Oh, post you ID tag number so we kno exactly what trans you are working with.

 

[88gt]

Not to be a "nay-sayer", I would not mate a v6 T5 to a v8...One good launch and you're looking for a v8 t5.

 

[BarnStang]

Thats true, and most people would/should use the 5.0 trans, but some are more budget restricted and use what they have at hand. Let's see, when I was in highschool I had a 72 Datsun LB110. THe predicesor to the B210. I put SEVEN transmissions and two rear ends in that car. I had that swap down to 45min with air tools...

I re-read the original post. Yes, IF the V6 bell bolts up to a 289/302 then you should not have any input shaft length problems. I would not have thought the 3.8 L bell would bolt to a 289/302 block...

 

[tweet66]

The 96 and later V6 trans has the same torque ratings and specs of the 95 and earlier V8 trannys. As far as input shaft length, look at the input shafts on the list posted by Barnstang. The 94 and later V6 and V8 input shaft length is the same at 7.85 inches. The biggest problem you'll run into with this swap, forgot to mention this earlier, is the speedo hookup. Make sure the V6 trans in not an electronic speedo. I ended up swapping, and slightly modifying, a 93 tailshaft so the speedo was in the correct location. Again, I checked all measurements before I did this. It would have been easier with a V8 tailshaft from 94/95, but I had two extra 93 housings lying around. I'm with Barnstang on the use of the V6 bell. If you can find the right flywheel it should bolt in. My biggest concern was the extra width and the fit with my Flowtech headers. I have two more V6 T5's, bells, and extra tailshafts that I'm going to do all this crap again for my 64 Falcon and 68 Cougar.

 

[wicked93gs]

yes, all v6 T5s are exactly the same torque rating as WC T5s...300ft/lbs...and since you can find them in better condition than v8 units, they will last longer...as for the electric speedo....thats what i want anyway, i will not be using any stock gauges, and I'm sure I can get a autometer speedo to work with the stock sender

p.s. according to wikipedia, the v6 bellhousing pattern is the same...

Early Windsor V8 pattern

* 221 V8
* 260 V8
* 289 V8 (made before August 3, 1964) - had five bolts holding bellhousing to block


[edit] Later Windsor V8 pattern

Note: this is commonly called the Ford Small-block V8 pattern, though it is used in some "big block"-sized V8's as well as some V6's and I6's.

* 200 I6 1980-1983 only, partial (4 of 6 bolts) pattern.
* 250 I6
* 255 V8
* 289 V8 - (made after August 3, 1964) - had 6 bolts holding bellhousing to block
* 302 V8 including Boss 302
* 302 Cleveland (Australia)
* 351 Cleveland V8 (not the 351 Cleveland M-block engine)
* 351 Boss
* 351 Cobra Jet
* 351 Windsor V8
* 400 Cleveland M-block V8 aka 400FMX (certain 1973 casting numbers D1AE and D3AE, mated to the FMX transmission)
* 3.8/3.9/4.2L Canadian Essex 90° V6 (RWD only)
* 240 I6
* 300 I6
* 4.6L Modular V8 (first two casting runs, numbers F1AE and F2VE)
* 5.0L V8


so it looks like it will all work assuming I use the right flywheel(or flexplate, whatever) now I just need to find out what engine plate/spacer I need to use...any ideas? sorry, I havent torn down a 302 yet or I would know, though again, i believe by using this my shifter will be 3/4" further back, which doesnt bother me, just makes it easier for me to reach...which combined with one of Reen's shifters should make it so I dont have to lean forward to shift at all

 

[Pbum5]

I'm just trying to come up with a hydraulic clutch setup that uses over the counter parts as opposed to spending 300 to 400 dollars on the JMC kit. I haven't been able to find out the exact amount of clutch fork throw/movement with a stock cable so I can calculate the size of the m/c and salve pistons to duplicate that movement with hydraulics.

I had a similar question about clutches.
Rbohm gave me this info.


for clutch linkage, check out this site;

http://home.bresnan.net/~dazed/test

scroll down to the T5hydraulic clutch brackets. daze is a member of this forum. i bought a set of his brackets and they are top quality stuff. he also includes a list of parts you need, and where to get them. the master and slave cylinders together run about $120 from speedway motors, so you will have about $200 into a hydraulic clutch conversion, and you wont have to deal with routing the cable to avoid the exhaust system. as for the clutch fork, the stock replacement one will do just fine.

 

[tweet66]

Wicked, you'll need to find a block plate for a V6 if you use that bellhousing. I tried the V8 plate and it didn't fit.

Pbum, I have that site saved, thanks. The bracket needs to be modified to work with the 94 and later T5 since Ford changed the location of the clutch fork (lower on the bell). My biggest concern with using those parts is availability years down the line is the m/c or slave develops a leak as opposed to using similar parts off say a 300ZX (so far my fist choice) which will be readily avalible OTC.

 

[BarnStang]

Pbum5, what size bore is best? Looking at the Speedway site there are several bore sizes. I figured a 1" bore would do. Don;t want to run out of pedal, but don't want the pedal too stiff either.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/113...-Cylinders.html?itemNo=clutch master cylinder

 

[dablack]

I would just find a 94/95 5.0 bell and block off, clutch, and flywheel. Don't forget that the balance on the flywheel is 50oz.

This way it is easier to find parts. Trying to find a flywheel for your odd V6 bell is going the wrong way.

By the way, I went this route. I picked up a complete 94/95 T5 set up. I wanted that instead of the 87/93 T5 because of the longer input/ deeper bell because of the shifter placement. Seemed like every T5 swap I saw (that used a 87/93 T5), the shifter came up in the upper right hand corner of the trans tunnel hole. I wanted mine to come up a little farther back.

I'm using the mustang steve cable / pedal kit and will be finishing the install in less than a month.

Austin

 

[tweet66]

Barnstang, most of the setup I've seen so far run a 3/4" m/c and 7/8" slave. If you run a 1" slave the pedal effort will be very easy but the slave throw might not be enough to dis-engage the clutch. You also have to consider pedal throw into this. If the pedal only move 1.5" and you need 1.5" of clutch fork movement then you'll need matching cylinder sizes to accomplish this. This is the biggest reason I'm trying to get the factory cable actuated clutch fork throw measurement. I know I have 1.75" of pedal throw on my 66 I need to know how far I need to move the fork to calc the slave bore size.

 

[Pbum5]

Pbum5, what size bore is best? Looking at the Speedway site there are several bore sizes. I figured a 1" bore would do. Don;t want to run out of pedal, but don't want the pedal too stiff either.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/113...-Cylinders.html?itemNo=clutch master cylinder

Honestly, I don’t know. I’m just passing information that was given to me.
I am also in the process of rounding up parts for my T5 swap.

Rbohm would know.

 

[wicked93gs]

I forgot to mention I'll be using a later 5.0 block....arent they supposed to be 28.8 oz?

 

[65ShelbyClone]

The whole 5.0 or just the block? Also, how much "later?"

I forget the exact year, but in the early '80s they went from 28oz to 50oz counterbalance.

 

[wicked93gs]

most likely it will be a 94 5.0L block(not from a mustang though)
so if I use this flywheel...

1965-95 Fidanza 164-Tooth Aluminum Flywheel
1965-95 Fidanza 164-Tooth Aluminum Flywheel
Fits 1965-95 289, 302, 351W. 10-1/2" & 11" long style & 11" diaphram. 28 & 50 oz. weights. Sold each.
Fidanza aluminum flywheels are made from the highest quality 6061-T6 aluminum. The material is fantastic for strength, heat dissipation, and of course reduction in weight. The friction surface we use is an incredibly strong 1050 steel. The plates are milled to meet our high specifications. A Fidanza flywheel can mate with any type of clutch material, including organic, kevlar, ceramic, metallic, and sintered iron. We attach the friction surface with military grade aerospace fasteners. The ring gears we use are also made from 1050 steel and are heat treated for durability. The gears are heated then pressed on and secured with grade 8 button screws. Fidanza designs and builds flywheels with extreme precision, high performance, and unmatched power!

I should be fine since it has a choice of weights...I mean, I am NOT going to go buy a used V8 T5....any one I find will most likely be torn to hell and selling for $500, it just doesnt make any sense(especially when I already have this one), I would rather swap input shafts, V8 T5s arent any stronger than the v6 version...and assuming I use all the right parts I should have any issues...so I know I need a 164 tooth flywheel, and a v6 block plate...I'm just trying to put together everything I need since it really doesnt look too hard....now will i need a v6 starter as well? or will a v8 starter work with the 164 tooth flywheel?