Timing/drivability Issues

[Jwade]

So as some background my 94 gt has been running well recently replaced the distributor, act sensor, icm, ect sensor, and did an intake swap to a TFS street burner series months ago and got an sct chip for a tune. I was on my way to town in some heavy rain a few days ago when a car splashed a large amount of water onto my (ram air) hood and windshield shortly after my car started cutting out a little like it had some old fuel in it, on the same trip that happened twice more and when I came to a stop the car stalled on me and would not start back up until I advanced the timing to approx. 30* advanced it will not start otherwise and is very hard to start at that point, once started I can only drop the timing to about 18* advanced then it stalls, when driving it backfires and has no power I assume due to being way too advanced on timing. I took it in to a shop after doing a few various tests of my own and they swapped in all new parts mentioned above other than intake, tested fuel pressure, and for vaccum leaks the only thing they didn't test was the maf they inspected it and said it appeared ok but couldn't swap a new one in to check the difference if any, or if it had jumped timing which they don't believe it had, the only thing I can think of is the maf sensor was damaged by water but I would like some input from others. ( sorry for the novel just wanted to put in as much info as possible) update: the maf and ait sensors ( same plug for both sensors) have .038v on the ground wire

 

[jozsefsz]

I've had a balancer self-destruct after running through high water (in a Mitsubishi, not a Mustang, but the principle's the same). Are your timing readings done with the spout disconnected (base timing), or is this computer-controlled timing? 10 degrees is proper base timing with the spout unplugged, otherwise idle's usually around 25-30. Definitely check the condition of your balancer, I'd suspect it may have slipped. You'd also get some interesting vibrations if that's the case.

To check if your MAF's totally wrecked, just disconnect it. You should run ok (in limp-mode but still ok). You don't mention replacing the TFI (the control module), those sometimes burn up even though they're remotely mounted. They'll cause similar problems as a bad pickup (PIP) in the distributor. (Edit: you mention icm, that's probably it)...

I'd hate to think you may have hydro-locked and damaged the engine (bent pushrods, valves, or a blown head-gasket) but after potential water-damage, running a compression test is probably a good idea.

 

[Jwade]

Timing is at 30* with the spout unplugged and I checked the balancer as I had an issue with it once before but it seems okay and the car doesnt shake or vibrate like it did when that happened last time. When I unplugged the maf it makes no difference in how it runs, I am wondering if its a bad ground to the maf due to its ground wire having consistant votalge reading with the key on. And thank you for the balancer idea that threw me for a loop when it happened a year ago lol yea it was called the icm at oreillys auto parts

 

[jozsefsz]

Dang, that's crazy-advanced base timing -- with the ecu adders it's probably at 50 degrees, you're more than a full cylinder away from #1. If the balancer hasn't slipped, and you're checking timing on the right plug, I hate to say it but something might well be mechanically wrong. Compression test before you spend on a new MAF or hunt for wiring issues, though even that won't find jumped timing (which sounds like it might be the case to me), but it may eliminate some hydrolock damage from the equation.

 

[Jwade]

Will do, I have to dig out my compression tester and give that a shot i hadn't even thought about that, and when my balancer slipped last time the only thing it affected was making some major vibration but it didn't affect how it ran but I checked it anyways just to be sure because of how far off it was. And it figures as I finish paying for my afr 185 competition heads it would do this lol

 

[Jwade]

Compression came back good, took it to a shop and they say its not the maf or air charge temp sensor and that the voltage and the ground wire is fine and that the pcm is seemingly doing what it should and with the spout in they measured it at 60* advanced

 

[jozsefsz]

Does the shop have any clue what's actually wrong? Total timing (part throttle at low load) should almost never go above 40 degrees, at idle it should be in the 25-30 range max. I have no idea how it's running at 60. The compression being good is good to hear, at least you're not dealing with bent valves and what-not. I'm sorry but I don't know of any other explanations beyond the timing chain having slipped, a damaged balancer, or other mechanical damage for why it's running timed the way it is.

 

[Jwade]

No they gave me the "it's not a cut and dried problem" line. And that's what im guessing at this point

 

[toyman]

Grounds are extremely important and most often overlooked. The battery to engine and engine to chassis grounds need to be solid. I would start by physically checking these grounds. Eyeballing them is useless.

With the timing numbers you are seeing would indicate a bad balancer. Remove the belt and check it again.

 

[Jwade]

Wouldn't the balancer only affect its balance? The last time that happened it just caused a ton of shaking and the car didnt have any other issues. This time while i was driving the car stalled and would not start till i physically advanced it by turning the distributor as far as I could. And that's why I took it to the shop but either they're trying to rip me off or it's supposedly not causing my issue though i have .04 v on the ground to my maf and ait sensors as well as a resistance that fluctuates between .7 and 1.3 ohms

 

[toyman]

If the balancer has or is slipping between the outer and inner rings you cannot determine the timing by reading the marks. As you have now moved the distributor the readings mean nothing. There is usually a vibration issue at higher rpms when a HB has slipped. I wouldn't be surprised if the HB falls apart once the belt is removed.

 

[Jwade]

But the hb wouldn't cause my car to stall while I'm driving correct? Without me touching anything just going down the road

 

[jozsefsz]

It wouldn't really cause issues beyond a very rough patch around 1500-2500rpm and long-term engine damage from the vibrations.

This shouldn't be a huge mystery, the key-way on the HB should be pointing to somewhere near 30 degrees btdc. (That isn't an exact science but your timing is hugely off so it should be readily apparent if it's not). You could also bring the engine to TDC on cylinder 1 compression stroke the old fashioned way (feel for air puffing out of the plug hole and manually stopping the piston's upward progress) and compare to your balancer reading, which should be at 0.

Personally I'd be pulling the balancer and inspecting it, and if it looks good, at least you've got a good start on pulling the timing cover and taking a look at the chain and where the cam sits aligned to the crank. I wouldn't bother tracking electronic gremlins as if you had an ordinary driveability problem, with the timing set where it is and the engine running at that setting, I'd be looking for mechanical issues. Until those are eliminated, checking or replacing sensors isn't a good use of time and $. As toyman indicates, a quick check that your grounds are solid is always a good idea, but you can conclude that it's not likely the source of this severe a timing issue.

 

[jrichker]

@Jwade
Use the following procedure to determine if the balancer has spun. It will find actual TDC which you can compare to the TDC mark on the balancer.

TDC location process courtesy of Michael Yount
If you're trying to find ACTUAL TDC for cam installation/degreeing, follow the steps below:

Positive stop – obtain an old spark plug for the Ford engine – most of us have at least one laying around. Put it in your vice, and with a tool of destruction you deem appropriate – cut off the ground tip and bust up the ceramic around the center electrode. Keep pounding to get the ceramic and center electrode removed so you’ve got a good ¾” or so of hollow space inside what used to be the ‘business’ end of the spark plug. If you happen to break the ceramic on the other end of the spark plug, don’t worry about it. Once you’ve got a nice hollow space in the tip of the plug, take a 5/16” tap, and cut threads inside that end of the plug. I found that diameter to go right in without any drilling required. Once you’ve cut threads, screw in a 5/16" bolt about 1.5” to 2” long. Then take your hack saw and cut the head off the bolt. Wouldn’t hurt to take your file/grinder and dress up the freshly cut surface so no sharp edges or shrapnel enter the combustion chamber. Also clean up the threads on the plug so that it easily screws into and out of the plug hole.

Determining TDC – remove the passenger side valve cover. Rotate the engine (socket on crank bolt) until the #1 piston is down the cylinder on the intake stroke. Unscrew the spark plug in that cylinder, and replace it with the positive stop you just made. Only screw the positive stop in hand tight. Install your cam degree wheel and pointer (no easy task in some cases as harmonic balancer and other accessories will have to be removed). You may want to remove all spark plugs at this point because it will make it easier to smoothly turn the engine over in small increments. GENTLY rotate the engine clockwise until the piston comes to rest against the stop. Note the degree wheel reading. GENTLY rotate the engine in the opposite direction until the piston comes to rest against the stop. Note the degree wheel reading. TDC is exactly half way between these readings. Calculate where that position is on the degree wheel, remove the piston stop from the cylinder, and rotate the engine to TDC as you calculated it.

 

[Stangbanger95]

I agre

 

[Stangbanger95]

I agree on spun balancer. With that kind of timing I don't believe it would even start, hell I have hard hard slow starts above 18 degrees

 

[Jwade]

It was my msd ignition coil... 3 shops 700 dollars later and no answer i go to a friend who has a year and a half of mechanical work not even certified, we go for a small drive to oreillys and in that 4 block drive he says it felt like the coil, buy an accel super coil and some spark plugs put them in and it runs like a dream at 10* one of the shops is paying me back 300 dollars for "not catching it"