To sell or not to sell, what would you do?

[Ophelia]

Hi, I have a dilemma here. I have had a 1966 fastback for over 10 years now. During those 10 years I have not had much of a chance to enjoy it because it needed a lot of work and has had engine problems. I've literally spent about $10k on it (at least 1/2 that was for a paint job that wasn't done right). My uncle and cousin were kind enough to take it for me and redo the paint job right and get the interior all nice and done up.

The big problem now is that the engine is not original. Whoever put the 351 engine in, pounded out the engine compartment sides to make it fit. I didn't know this before but apparently the spark plugs cannot be removed and changed because of this! They are stuck there! This was done before I bought it. So, basically the engine cannot be serviced properly.

So, it seems I have two options. 1. Keep it and dump more $$$ to get a new engine and have that put in. 2. Sell it, and I have no clue what the going rate is for classic Mustangs in the Midwest. I know I wouldn't be able to get back what I put into it. Basically everything is done on it except the engine.

I really love this car but haven't gotten to enjoy it. Can anyone tell me an approximate cost of putting a new engine in? How much would a new 289 cost? Where would I even get one? I think my fiance's uncle can put the engine in for me so I wouldn't have to pay a lot for labor. The other thing is, we plan on moving to a bigger house and having kids so I don't know how much extra $$$ we would even have to dump into it. My fiance loves the car also and has always loved Mustangs just like me. He has a 2001 Mustang.

I have a while to think about it and see how finances are. I'm just wondering if it's worth it or if I should just sell it next year. When I was younger I used to see classic Mustangs all the time in the summer, now I hardly see them at all.

I would greatly appreciate opinions from other classic Mustang owners!

Thanks!!

 

[t_chelle16]

I don't know how much new engines are, but have you considered buying a used engine & a rebuild kit? That may be cheaper than a new one.

Unless it's a matter of being really strapped for cash, I wouldn't sell it. You could always park it for a few years then come back to it when you have more money to put into it. Unless it's outside in the elements, sitting for a few years shouldn't hurt it. If you really like this car and sell it, you're going to regret it later. But if it comes between keeping the car and feeding your family, by all means sell it (the car, not the family ).

-Chelle

 

[DarkBuddha]

You're in a tough spot....

First things first. From reading your post, it is pretty obvious to me that you either aren't mechanically inclined, or simply don't have the tools, resources, experience, time, knowledge or inclination to do your own work. IMHO, owners of vintage Mustangs fall into two basic categories: "the hobbyist" that does much (if not all) of their own work, or "the buyer" that buys a finished car or pays to have a car restored/fixed. There is a grey area inbetween, which is where you seem to fall (as do I sometimes). This is probably the worst place to be since you have to rely on others for much of the actual work, but you don't have a volume of cash to make it practical or easy. Ultimately, you should definitely not be making these decisions without more knowledge and information.

What to do? Basically, you have to do the math... do you have the money to finish the car? This is not conditional... don't even think things like "if its only another $5k, then I can do it, but if its $10k, then no way"... no matter what your limit is, you will end up reaching it before the car is done. Ask anyone... when you estimate how much it will cost to restore/fix a Mustang, simply add up the costs and then TRIPPLE IT! Simply the truth. So figure out how much it will cost, then tripple it, and then decide if you can afford it.

As for the engine swap, you've got some options... There are places that do nothing but engine rebuilds and engine swaps. A decent basic rebuilt engine (either 289 or 302) can range from $1200 to $2000, with no performance options really. Labor will range from $400-$800.

Your real concern about doing the engine swap should not be limited to just the engine itself, but whether there will be any other issues come up in relation (tranny bellhousing, accessories, mounts, etc.). Engine swaps can be easy or hard, it just depends on how much stuff has to be fixed/corrected along the way.

Ultimately, you need to decide what you want from the car. If you just want a fun car to drive, then focus on getting the car to that "drivable" stage and start enjoying it. Do an engine swap that is cost effective, like going with a 302 rather than a 289 (dimensionally the same). You can then do other stuff while driving and enjoying it.

If, however, you want a true restoration, then you're in different territory and probably will have to wait longer and spend more money before getting to enjoy driving the car. Getting a date code correct 289 will be more costly and time consuming than going with a comparable 302.

Hope this helps...

 

[dodgestang]

The big problem now is that the engine is not original. Whoever put the 351 engine in, pounded out the engine compartment sides to make it fit. I didn't know this before but apparently the spark plugs cannot be removed and changed because of this! They are stuck there! This was done before I bought it. So, basically the engine cannot be serviced properly.

I need a better definition for impossible to service. I have a 408c (stroked out 351 cleveland) in my 65 FB, did not have to pound anything to get it in and have no problem changing spark plugs. I simply remove the valve covers and then I have plenty of room to get my spark plug socket with swivel adapter and long extension arm in. I would like to see a picture of this butchery you are talking about.

 

[electricgreen]

I guess the question to ask yourself is if you are willing/able to learn to do the work yourself on the car. When we first started in the "hobby", neither myself nor my husband had much of a clue. But we learned, and this summer started quite a project with our 73. And we are still learning as we go, believe me, we are NO where near experts! But, if either yourself, or your fiance, or both of you are willing/able to learn, it's possible to do many things yourself. Even changing the plugs in the 351 (engine hoists are good things!). However, the spark plug thing sounds kinda wierd to me. What part of the car was "pounded"? You could be facing more of a problem than a motor swap if real damage was done. However, it might not be much of a problem at all. Without pics, it's really hard to tell. I have felt like this guy ALOT since we got the 73, and even more frequently this past summer as we discovered things like a rusted through shock tower (and how hard it was to replace, lol). Post pics, hang out here and learn, and you might find yourself keeping what sounds to be a nice car. If you do sell, maybe look into finding a more solid, finished car to enjoy.

 

[charlies]

Whoever put the 351 engine in, pounded out the engine compartment sides to make it fit. I didn't know this before but apparently the spark plugs cannot be removed and changed because of this!

I would like to hear more of this operation. Do you have pictures? Did someone take a sledge hammer to the shock towers? I don't know if I could hammer the towers back with one, I kind of doubt it (I'm 6' weighing in at 220). Can you imagine the scene though, hood off, engine out, standing on the fender, one foot on either side of the shocker tower, with a sledge hammer raised over your head, thinking, 'oh yea...this engine will fit in there, no problem! lol. I think the hammer must have fallen on someones head a few times too many! That is just insane, how can the car even drive after that? Imagine the damage to the shock and the coil, possibly the upper control arm. Besides, won't a Cleveland (just assuming the bigger of the two) fit in there with only minor modifications? I think I heard the plugs would be difficult, but not impossible. Of course your local mechanic may just say it's impossible because he doesn't want to take the time, I would look into it more. Post pictures of the engine compartment!!

 

[dodgestang]

I would like to hear more of this operation. Do you have pictures? Did someone take a sledge hammer to the shock towers? I don't know if I could hammer the towers back with one, I kind of doubt it (I'm 6' weighing in at 220). Can you imagine the scene though, hood off, engine out, standing on the fender, one foot on either side of the shocker tower, with a sledge hammer raised over your head, thinking, 'oh yea...this engine will fit in there, no problem! lol. I think the hammer must have fallen on someones head a few times too many! That is just insane, how can the car even drive after that? Imagine the damage to the shock and the coil, possibly the upper control arm. Besides, won't a Cleveland (just assuming the bigger of the two) fit in there with only minor modifications? I think I heard the plugs would be difficult, but not impossible. Of course your local mechanic may just say it's impossible because he doesn't want to take the time, I would look into it more. Post pictures of the engine compartment!!

The cleveland is the larger of the two (w vs c) and it goes it with no modifications when you use the correct headers and motor/frame mounts. The only reason you would need any mods is if you were running high port heads or port stuffers both of which I higly doubt are installed on motor that was put in with the shock towers beat up. Most likely who ever installed this motor (be it w or c) didn't bother to buy swap headers or get correct mounts both of which would end up leaving you thinking the motor doesn't fit.

Take a look at my clearances:

I REALLY want to see pictures of this 351 installed in your car.

 

[Ophelia]

Thanks for the quick replys! DarkBuddha, you hit the nail on the head. I am NOT mechanically inclined nor do I have extra spare cash laying around for other people to fix the car. I just want a nice, classic 'stang to drive around in the summers. "True restoration" is not necessary for me even though I know it would make the car worth more in the long run. Just don't have the $$ for that.

The engine was worked on in 1994 and I don't remember the mechanic saying anything to me about not being able to access the spark plugs, unless he just didn't bother trying. I do have the original receipt for that and will have to look at it. My fiance's uncle is the one who recently started working on it, and said he can't access the spark plugs and that it was also an engine from a 1977 Ford truck, which was not what I was told when I bought it. I was told it came out of a 70-something Mach, and that it was a C.

I would say the whole 10 years I have had the car, I've only gotten to drive it around for a couple of summers, and those don't last long here in MinneSNOWta. And even those summers I did not drive it much because I was worried about getting stuck somewhere and it always overheated.

I will definitely take some pictures for you, except the car is not in storage at my house, it's at my fiance's uncles house. We will try to get down there this weekend so I can get some good pics of it, and my fiance can also explain things better than I can so I will ask him to get more details.

I know if we do sell the car, it's highly unlikely we would ever be able to get another one, unless we win the lottery! We are also hoping to get a house with a 3 car garage so storage would not be a problem. Also since my other Uncle and cousin worked on it so hard for a year is another reason I hate to sell it. He didn't even ask for any money for labor, and I just gave him what I could which wasn't much.

Anyways, I'll post again when I have some pics!

 

[Ogre67]

This guy reminds me of my own plight. You really gotta decide how you wanna do it and if you wanna do it. I allways gauge my mustang in the terms of new cars. I have come very close to selling it many a times, but I allways remember a halfway decent new car is 15k. 15k into my mustang would make it one hell of a beast, not to mention I love the way it looks, I love the image, the persona, the comradery, everything that comes with a classic stang. And then there are the days I look at my old outdated 67 and think I wish I could get 4k on this and buy myself slightly used corvette.

Then I come to the conclusion ive spent too much time and money on the car to sell it for a measley 4k. I finally came to the decision I am going to have this car and its not really that bad of a deal.

The real thing you gotta find is a local good ol boy who loves to work on cars and does good work. Before I found one I was really in a bind, I couldent do the work myself and couldent afford 60 bucks a hour for labor. Internet is a marvelous tool, find your local area website put out a add, hell even ask on here.

Or you might just wanna cut your losses and sell the car.
Ogre

 

[kirbyalaska]

I would say the whole 10 years I have had the car, I've only gotten to drive it around for a couple of summers, and those don't last long here in MinneSNOWta. And even those summers I did not drive it much because I was
I know if we do sell the car, it's highly unlikely we would ever be able to get another one, unless we win the lottery! We are also hoping to get a house with a 3 car garage so storage would not be a problem. Also since my other Uncle and cousin worked on it so hard for a year is another reason I hate to sell it. He didn't even ask for any money for labor, and I just gave him what I could which wasn't much.

Having been in your situation, I would say keep it unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE to sell it. It doesn't sound like you necessarily have to spend money on it so it can sit in the garage for a few years. Also, once you get into the house you automatically get tax deductions from your Mortgage interest and property taxes. You should be able to get back a couple grand anyway. That will get you a strong running rebuilt 302 installed if that is the route you want to take. Also, definately keep it if it is not rusty. I live in Iowa and I know how hard they are to find in decent shape around here.
I have had several classics in the past that I wished I would have kept, but sold for one reason or another. Now I sit with no toys and no likely chance at getting another one for a good 5+ years.

 

[Ophelia]

Thanks again for the replies! I still have to get some engine pictures, but here are some picture taken in late August when I first got the car back after my Uncle restored it (I hope the links work):

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~ophelia1920/mustang1.jpg">
<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~ophelia1920/mustang2.jpg">
<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~ophelia1920/mustang4.jpg">

 

[dodgestang]

Thanks again for the replies! I still have to get some engine pictures, but here are some picture taken in late August when I first got the car back after my Uncle restored it (I hope the links work):

I like the color
Did he restore it with Air shocks and/or jacker shackles? It sits awfully high in the rear.

 

[390Fe]

Hmmmm.... starting to sound like someone stuffed a 351m/400 into the 'stang. Is the car a manual or automatic? I'd bet that the trans tunnel has taken a beating as well to fit the BB style bell housing.

I am the wrong person to ask about this though... I sold my 1965 mustang daily driver 15 years ago (parents wouldn't allow 3 stangs in the driveway... one had to go ) I STILL REGRET THAT SALE - and none of my friends will EVER LET ME FORGET IT EITHER - i.e - "you should have kept that '65...."


That said - do what you have to do to get your life priorities going... you can always buy another one later.

 

[RGS0907]

Hmmmm.... starting to sound like someone stuffed a 351m/400 into the 'stang

I'm not familiar with the 351's... Do they actually come in different block sizes? I always thought that the basic block was the same & most of the changes were in the heads... How does anyone fit a 351 into a 65/66 without modifiying the shock towers?

 

[dodgestang]

How does anyone fit a 351 into a 65/66 without modifiying the shock towers?

Its easy to put a 2v or a 4v 351c into a 65-6 without modyfiing the shock towers.

First you line up the motor like this:

Just to convince yourself that it won't fit.


Then you pull the headers off and lower it in:

After 7 hours of screaming and cussing later and an assortment of cuts, bruises, and permantly lost tools because your threw them somewhere in the yard....

Taddaaaa

The real trick to get the motor in is 2 fold.

1. You need 64 falcon (also on early 65 mustang) 3 peice motor/frame mounts

2. You need special headers.....tubular auto makes some.....they look like spagetti and cross over under the oil and delete the cross member:

not really the best choice..but now you can order a pair from fprdpowertrain.com that justa bout fit...they are a little pricey though....and you have to be willing to do this to them....

We had to put a couple strategic 'dents' into the headers to get them in. But at the end of the day....one 351c in a 65 non-modyfied engine compartment....and some people say its impossible

 

[RGS0907]

I love the instant feedback in this forum.. And I thought that my 428 was shoehorned in! So how DO you change the plugs in that, anyway?

 

[dodgestang]

I love the instant feedback in this forum.. And I thought that my 428 was shoehorned in! So how DO you change the plugs in that, anyway?

Its actually not that hard...I usually pull the valves covers when I do plugs....lets me inspect the rockers that way too....just use a swivel connector, a socket, and a long extension arm....done it 3 times so far....no problems. Just takes a little longer than a standard 289

 

[RGS0907]

Its actually not that hard...I usually pull the valves covers when I do plugs....lets me inspect the rockers that way too....just use a swivel connector, a socket, and a long extension arm....done it 3 times so far....no problems. Just takes a little longer than a standard 289

That's what I do with mine too.. I also take off my shock tower braces... That's why I can't put an export brace on, I need to be able to remove it again to do plugs.

 

[dodgestang]

That's what I do with mine too.. I also take off my shock tower braces... That's why I can't put an export brace on, I need to be able to remove it again to do plugs.

Funny stuff......I use an export brace and a montecarlo bar....I have to pull the MC bar, but can figet my way around the export brace without too much hassle. But even that comes in and out without too much labor.

 

[electricgreen]

Hmmmm.... starting to sound like someone stuffed a 351m/400 into the 'stang.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw the motor was from a 77 truck...



From the pics, it looks like a great car. I (personally) would keep the car, even if it ment storing it for a while. I met someone last year at a car show with a 70 Boss. He had it in his garage for about 15 years, while his kids were growing up. Then one day, his son came to him about restoring it. Got him going again, and he ended up with a second place tie and one hell of a beautiful car. We have moved 3 times with my husbands first car, and hopefully this coming year we will get her back on the road. There have been MANY occasions it was almost sold (I even "traded" him my car for it once. Ended up his again somehow though ), but he is glad we have kept it. If you have the space, and don't need the money, keep it until you can finish it.