What do i need to beat a 2008 Zo6?

Discussion in '1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-' started by what camaro, Mar 4, 2009.

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  1. Hmmm... hydrolic disc>drum, ... guess thats why, when stopping real moving weight, semi tractors and locomotives use drum designs.
  2. MOD FIGHT!!!!! :D
  3. :fairyfight:

    I plan on going with a mild turbo setup on my 383 to make around 650-700 hp. Disc brakes suck when they get wet (worse than when hott) . I assume thats why Semi's use Drums....because all breaking surfaces are enclosed. Semis dont gas/ brake/ gas .....like a sports car. So usually a Semi's drums have time to cool.

    Either that or ive had way too much of this Brandy for one evening.

  4. :lol: even the mighty mods are guilty of thread derailing.......:D
  5. Come on, now.. We didn't derail this thread. The last time anyone mentioned anything in response to the OPs point was early on page 6... And to be perfectly honest, even though I don't condone intentional thread derailment, my style is to let threads in 5.0-talk continue for as long as their conversations are civil. I believe "talk" is for people to converse about whatever they like and follow the natural course of their conversations.

    In tech though, threads should stay on topic so that future people conducting searches don't have to sift through a lot of BS that isn't related to the thread's subject.

    That's always been my modding style.

  6. My defence was in line with the Roots you mentioned in your original example, not a Centrifugal. Just because the Turbo set up you mention makes the over all torque of the PD blower, doesn't mean its got the same power curve characteristic. I have yet to see a turbo of any size that can match the off idle and lower RPM torque characteristics of a Roots/Twin screw. The ones that come close are small in size and as a result also limited on their top end potential.

    In your earlier example you talk about turbo guys seeing full boost by 3,500RPM. The problem with that, is that those same set ups only start making boost at 3,000-3,200RPM. The power may be great, but the curve itself is short and violent. If you choose to size the turbo accordingly to come on during the early ends of the power curve, top end performance suffers. There is no do-it-all power adder.

    My PD blower starts making boost almost right off idle and is seeing 10psi by 2,000RPM and carries all the way to red line. No peaky power spikes, no hesitation, just big block torque from start to finish. Yes, the power is softer in the middle and upper RPM ranges than the Turbo, or Centi blower, but the power drop off is smooth and seamless.....its not like hitting a wall that some people are under the impression of.

    And the power output is controlled completely by my right foot. Its not dependant on engine RPM like a centrifugal, or exhaust backpressure/engine RPM like a turbo is. When I want it to come on, the rate it does so is totally dependant on how hard, or quickly I plant the accelerator.

    That’s the kind of characteristics that sold me on the PB blower and that’s why they’re still around today. If it was all about making the most torque, people would have switched to turbo’s a long time ago. But since PD blowers are still king at low end, the aftermarket and OEM just keeps on building them. :D

    I take no offence at all. :)

    Yes, I fully understand drum brakes. I realize they use hydraulic wheel cylinders to actuate the shoes. What I meant by "mechanical" in my argument was the mechanical advantage (IE from a leverages standpoint) that the clamping of the rotor has from the outer edges that the disk set up has over the pressing inward on the drum set up of the drum set up.

    I'll agree that when new, in hard braking circumstances that locking up the rear wheels on a drum brake set up is completely possible.....but it takes very little wear and just a few hot stops with the shoes to "glaze" them over greatly reducing their effectiveness. They're effectiveness is also reduced by the encounter of dirt/water/oil picked up on the surface of the ash vault in comparison to disk.

    Also like you mentioned previously, limited surface area of the drum makes them more subject to heat and as a result fading, than the disk. Not a problem if you plan on locking the back wheels up every time you stop, but a factor when trying to moderate your breaks to slow the car down from speed.

    You give the stock rear drum set up more credit than it deserves. If you're pressing the brake pedal hard enough to lock up the rear brakes, then the front ones are guaranteed to be sliding. :D The brake system as a whole is much harder to manipulate with drums out back than they are with 4 wheel disk. If you're to the point where you're locking up the front wheels on a stock Fox body, that doesn't mean the rear brakes are working at their full potential, but they almost certainly are with full wheel disk.

    And again....get into a situation where you've got skinnes up front where the majority of your braking takes place and not a lot of rubber on the road to work with you could find your back brakes next to useless because of the so little pressure you're able to apply to the pedal trying to prevent lock up.

    As you mentioned, the use of a proportioning valve will allow you to more accurately set up the rear brakes to work in conjunction with the front, but that still does nothing to combat against fading due to heat or the other issues I mentioned above.

    I agree fully, but I think we've got different idea's where said "brake fade" sets in. Any time you're modulating the brakes to slow the wheel without locking it, you're creating heat, reducing the effectiveness of the rear drum. The harder you press the brake pedal without locking up the wheels, the more heat you're going to create. Since the drum brake system isn't as able to dissipate heat nearly as effectively as the disk brake, that fade comes on much sooner by comparison.

    Where one may not notice any fade at all with a 4-wheel disk set up from an accelerated rolling stop like a drag race situation, there's most certainly a noticeable difference in fade from the point you depress your brakes, to the point the vehicle actually comes to a stop with the rear drum. :shrug:

    Tell ya what, when you install a complex air brakes system pumping 120psi of compressed air into each line and 18-wheels on your Stang, then we’ll talk. ;)

    Air Brake Drum systems on Tractor Trailers are used mainly for their simplicity, decreased rotational mass and their ability to come on “hard” when need be. You’ll also notice that truck drivers utilize engine braking whenever they can. The drum brakes don’t stop worth a damn under anything but low speeds, or full on dynamite! So unless you're in a situation that will allowed to clamp hard, they’re not much good at all. If you want to lock up your brakes going down the track at 150mph, like an 18-wheeler trying to stop for a deer crossing, be my guess. I’ll be sure to stay out of the way as the Ambulance, Fire and Tow trucks all making their way to your location at the end of the track. :D

    And if you’ve ever noticed trains don’t stop very well at all and when they do stop in an emergency situation, its full wheel lock all the way around. Are those the characteristics you’d like your Mustang to take on? :shrug:

    No fight...just a friendly difference of opinion. We've had em before. Totally guilty on the derailing though....but then again....considering the title, this thread was doomed from the start. :D
    Shhhhhh.....don’t post. ;)
  7. +1 :rlaugh:
  8. I agree with Bentley on this new discussion. That should fix the argument.
  9. Deleting my posts now? Whats the name of this thread again?
  10. I like my power curve like i like my women, short and voilent, so thats pretty convienient :rlaugh:

    all this talk about brakes... got me thinking, so i ordered a set of drums to replace the crappy front disc ive been using
  11. There won't be any problem braking with this set up. There a re a lot of cars well into the 9's using drums. The bonus I have for the drums is the weight reduction I've done to the car. It's somewhere in the 2700-2800# range now. A lot lees weight to haul down from speed. Oh and by the way the E-brake is gone, took her out, same with the proportioning valve, took it out with the line lock install. I don't think there is a full bodied car at our track that has either unless you want to count the grocery getters. I do plan on doing a disc swap this year but not sure what set up to go with that will fit in the 15x9's out back..
  12. Hehe it took me 30 minutes to read all 7 pages, now my head is spinning.........good read:p
  13. So... You called drums mechanical because discs have a perceived mechanical advantage? :scratch:

    Well, regardless, it's no mechanical advantage unless I misunderstood my physics teacher F=Cf * N where F = the force of friction, Cf is coefficient of friction, and N = the normal force. It has nothing to do with rotor speed, even though it may be higher at the edges.

    No I don't... and why do you assume that they're stock?

    Not a safe assumption, at all. Based on this, i don't think you've ever tuned a brake system. Am I wrong? The truth of this situation would be more dependent on how the proportioning valve is adjusted what what type of tires are on the front and rear. In fact, the single biggest thing you can do to increase the braking performance in most cars is to put on sticky front tires. Just be sure that you can adjust the proportioning bias if you do not also put on sticky rears. If your rears lock first, that could make an already bad situation like a panic stop a whole lot worse.

    You can't "manipulate" the performance of either system without an after-market adjustable proportioning valve, but once you have one, it is just as easy to manipulate either system. Drivers don't manipulate braking performance on the go other than mashing the pedal softer or harder.

    The "glazing" happens on both rotor and drum systems, but not if they're broken in correctly. Bedding has to be done with either system, and if done correctly this problem will not manifest itself in a drag car. I don't want to go into detail on this one, because it'd take at least several large paragraphs that I don't want to type. Baer's website probably still has some pretty good info on correct bedding procedures and reasons it is necessary.

    The reason I got concerned with your point of view in this thread was due to your negative comment about TweekedGT's car. A guy's money is far better spent on an adjustable proportioning valve and upgraded front discs than on replacing rear drums. So to gawk at a 5.0 guy for still having drums on a drag-oriented street car is, IMHO, a little out in left field.

    Your argument about brake fade in a single stop is flat wrong. I already explained the major cause of brake fade. It isn't going to happen in a single stop, and if it does, then you need to either 1. change your fluid because it has air or moisture in the lines, or 2. change your shoes to higher performance shoes that are capable of taking more heat. The latter is unlikely to be necessary in a drag-oriented car, though. And choosing a shoe that has material designed for road racing is not a good idea if the brakes are not used in that way. That type of material needs to be hot in order to reach peak performance. In a drag-oriented car, you're not going to get them there. Also, high performance racing fluids withstand extreme heat that is generated by major abuse in road-racing applications that a single stop could never reproduce regardless of the type of braking system.

    Brian, I'd like to give you room to save face, but your concepts on braking are dead wrong here, and you're talking to a guy that has a little experience with road-racing, and who has studied and implemented the knowledge with the Baer System that is on my car.

  14. I didn't know you were such a funny MFer! :rlaugh::lol::rlaugh::lol:

    You're pretty close to the truth on the second part. I'm honestly not sure if the stock front discs on foxes are better than the stock rear drums... I remember having so many problems warping and over heating in the past. The Baer kit was an awesome upgrade.
  15. Once you go turbo, you never go back!
  16. I didn't have a physics teacher who told me stuff, but I have driven semi trucks for the last 15 years, and also worked as a conductor for the Illinois Central railroad. Semi's use a drum brake system because it is the most effective way of stopping a large amount of moving weight, engine brakes are an option most company's don't spend the $ on, haven't had a truck with it in 6 or 7 years. And GE and Electromotive use drum brakes on their locomotives, oh yeah, for the same reason, it has proven to stop more moving weight more efficiently. These corporations have a zillion highly paid, highly educated engineering grads on their payroll, and I've come to believe them. Isn't there a Mustang II conversation that needs modding?
  17. Wow this turned into the mother of all derailed threads...lol.

    Talk about worlds apart...this thread went from how do i beat a 70k+ sports car with a car that only cost 14K new 2 decades ago, to debating on which style brakes are better...the ones like the 70k car or the ones like the 14k car.


  18. :bs: Mine was just over $12k... Now what?
  19. +1 to putting locomotive brakes on your mustang to beat a z06!!
  20. I'll be needing them for my next turbo upgrade! :nice:

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