Dbeck002 said:
The perfect example of my point was made by stang2841, why dont i favor the LS1? because driving isnt about all HP numbers, its about driving and the enjoyment you get from it. I would enjoy driving moreso in a lightweight 5.0 with lots of torque to weight ratio than a 500 RWHP 3800 lbs camaro that makes peak torque at 4500 RPM. See where im getting at, its not all about numbers...
I really have to disagree with you. I don't know why it is but all Mustang and LT1 guys seem to think the LS1 has no bottom end grunt.
WRONG
They actually make nearly all there torque at 2500rpm, they then have an almost completly FLAT torque curve to the PEAK @ 4400rpm where it slowly drops off.
The make more low end torque than an LT1 STOCK for STOCK.
In many ways this is half the reason they make such good high end power.
9 Deuce GT said:
After reading Dbeck002's post about his races with a H/C/I Camaro, I have some questions. I am not certain if this car had the LS6 package or a piece together combo, so I did some research. Some websites are claiming to give 475 RWHP with the LS6 package on an LS1 Camaro/Firebird. Would this be a street legal build? If so how can the LS1 do it and not a 351W? I have been asking a few questions about how to get 400 RWHP out of my future 351W swap, and most replies were I could not do it and be emissions legal. WTF? How can the Chevy's do it? Is the LS1 that much better of an engine?
There are TWO main reasons for this. Both related.
Firstly, how HP is derived. To get an HP reading we use a BRAKE device (hence the B in BHP), this is either an engine or chaissis dyno like a Dynojet or Mustang Dyno.
HP = torque (lb ft) x rpm / 5252
So to get a higher HP number you must either:
-produce more torque at the same rpm
-produce the same torque at a higher rpm
-or produce more torque at a higher rpm
The LS1 manages to produce a lot of torque very high in the rev range (~350lb ft @ 4400rpm). The 351 may make similar torque but it will be lower in the rev range, and thusly the BHP figure will be lower.
So this is WHY LS1's produce more power.
The HOW they produce it is far more complex.
In simple terms it is a better engine (I know this is a Mustang forum, but the truth is the truth).
The key to power is efficency. The LS1 has as already mentioned very good flow rates. But more than that it gets more in percentage terms from every combustion cycle.
Light weight and low friction components play a big part, as does the combustion chamber (piston, valve position size, spring rate, size and shap, spark plug location and so on). Even the material used. Not too mention that modern engines are designed with CAD (Computer Aided Design) and built using CAM (Computer Aided Manufacturing). This all adds up to better built, lower tolorancies and fewer descrepancies. Back in the 60's when the 351w was being used such accurate manufacturing methods where decades off.
The oil and cooling system (internal engine pathways) also will help. As does modern electronic ECU's and fuel injection.
In every area the LS1 will basically out perform the 351w. But the 351 is not alone as the LS1 also out performs ANY (Ford, Dodge, GM, etc.) engines from the past that are built along the same lines.
And it doesn't stop there either. The new Dodge Hemi out flows nd out performs the LS6 in almost every area internally. And at least has the potential to outperform it in the BHP department too. And chances are newer engines yet to be released will out perform that as well.
Efficency is the KEY and always has been. That is why OHC/DOHC engines can produce a much higher specific output than a push rod OHV engine. The only limiting factor is they are usually of a much smaller capacity, so their total PEAK HP numbers are not any higher if at all. But if they produced large capcaity DOHC engines then they WOULD outperform the OHV push rod engines. An irony really.
Think about it, even the best LS1's struggle past 450rwhp and remain streetable as a n/a motor (yes of course more is possible, but at a sacrifice). So that's only about 500bhp at the engine.
It's specific output is only 500 / 5.7 = 87.7bhp per litre. Which is pretty darn good for an OHV. Many older OHV engines will struggle to make it past 75bhp/litre and still be streetable (even when forgetting about emmissions).
Yet an DOHC design will often support 100bhp/litre or more.
Image if Honda (yes I know, I know, but bear with me) made a 4.0 litre V8 out of their 2.0 4 cylinder engine.
It would be a 32v DOHC lightweight aluminium engine. With the potential of 120bhp/litre specific output.
So from only a small capacity it could produce 480bhp STOCK and emissions LEGAL.
However, there is no need for such engines so it is rare to see any actually produced.
The best I know of is the TVR Speed 12 engine. It's an all aluminium DOHC V12 7.7 litre with 880bhp STOCK LEGAL EMISSIONS on what would be 91-93 octane fuel.
It makes the new LS7 7.0 Litre C6 Z06 engine with only 512bhp look like it's 'slightly' under performaing doesn't it.
Dynamically newer technology will always win through. In the case of the 351w vs the LS1. The LS1 is the better designed engine, hence it produces the most power. But the LS1 is by no means the pinnacle of engine design however. It just happens to be VERY good and very available, especially in the USA.
Hope this helps.
