Yellow brick road to a great Suspension

[iamadonut]

Yellow brick road to great Handling

Hey everyone,

I've been reading/posting on this board for a few months now and first I just wanted to say that there's no way I could've undertaken my first Classic Mustang project without your help.

But, being the greedy information whore that I am , I was wondering if we could create a thread that outlines the "basics" of transforming a tired, old, worn suspension into a corner carving street machine. I know there are infinite variables out there, but maybe just the basics will do. I've read a ton of posts about different suspension components and stuff, but I'm still confused about where to start. My suspension right now is stock, and I'd like to know what the natural progression should be. Should I get new A-Arms first, subframe connectors first, etc.? For my purposes I just want a car that has decent handling characteristics. Never gonna take it autocrossing or anything. I just dont want to feel like I'm driving a boat anymore. I also can't afford to buy everything all at once.
So...which parts do I upgrade/add and in what order?

If we get some good info here I'd be happy to write it up into a "Handling 101" and host it for anyone interested.

Thank you!

 

[iamadonut]

So I've been doing some more searching and from what I've read a basic list might go:

1) Rear Springs and shock
2) Subframes
3) Front springs
4) Sway bars
5) poly bushings?
6)UCA/LCAs?

I have a 70 coupe -- would the Shelby drop be beneficial?

Can anyone recommend good vendors/brands/prices for the above?

Also, there's a group purchase on VMF right now for roller perches. What exactly are these and will they benefit a currently stock suspension? Should this mod be saved for much later?

 

[69PaleHorse]

1) Rear Springs and shock

Personally, I went with KYB at all 4 corners and a 5 leaf mid eye spring. However, it really depends on your application. 4 leaf springs and a softer shock will make for a more well-mannered ride more suited for cruising IMO. Whereas a stiffer spring/shock combo is a harsher ride but is more responsive int he twisties.

2) Subframes

There were some recent posts about subframe connectors. Several vendors offer different options. There are the standard Grab-A-Trak square/rectangular connectors that attach at two points and are fairly inexpensive. An Improvement over nothing, for certain. Then there are the TCP or Global West tubular connectors (TCP having a one-up on Global West because of their cage design) but considering tubular connectors as a whole, they are supposedly better at distributing the load. And then allegedly the best single option (again not counting TCP's cage) would be the Maeir Racing connectors which are tubular and attach in three points.

3) Front springs

Similar to my post above on Rear Springs. Depends on what you want to do with the car.

4) Sway bars

IMO, go with a 1" to 1 1/8 inch sway bar up front. It is a big improvement over stock. Rear sway bars are nice if you do a lot of canyon carving, but not a necessity.

5) poly bushings?

Nice to have polygraphite ( a self lubricating type of polyurethane) bushings on most anything except the strut rods as the higher durometer tends to break the strut rods at really inopportune times. That's never a good thing.

6)UCA/LCAs?

This is a huge area of debate and something you are likely not to get a general consensus on. Suffice it to say that the shelby mod, regardless of UCA/LCA choice will definately be one way to improve the handling. Now, whether you opt to modify stock UCA's so the ball joint does not bind, or opt to go to a performance tubular UCA is up to you. Likewise, tubular LCA's give you more rigidity and less weight than stock, but boxing stock lowers is also a great option. Again, it really depends on you and your goals/wishes/desires for the vehicle.

I have a 70 coupe -- would the Shelby drop be beneficial?

If I remember correctly, the shelby drop is not as sever on the 69-70, about 1". Everybody feel free to correct me on this one.

Also, there's a group purchase on VMF right now for roller perches. What exactly are these and will they benefit a currently stock suspension?

First off, I want in on this deal! I can not speak to the performance/ride gains for these but have heard from many people that it is substantial and noticeable. Had I known about these when redoing my front suspension I would have opted to put in a pair. Personally, when you change shocks/springs up front I would do this mod at that time and not put it off for another time.


Hope this helps.

 

[iamadonut]

AWESOME info, thank you!

Regarding front suspension:
I'd like about a 1" drop on all 4 corners. If I do the Shelby drop and get 620# 1" drop springs, will the drop up front be too much? The car currently has GT-40p heads (are those aluminum?) and an aluminum intake manifold. So there's a bit less weight in there. I'd also like to run 17" wheels, too.


When I do my front end, I'd like to do the springs/shocks and I guess the perches as well. Should I also add new bushings and UCA/LCAs? The cost of new UCA/LCA's might too much, but should I at least get some polygraphite bushings? Again, what is a good brand/vendor/price for the bushings and springs?

Again, much thanks.

 

[NorCal66]

the 620s will lower the front from stock, as will the shelby drop. Note: FROM STOCK! Many, if not most stang suspensions are so worn out they have probably dropped an inch from stock already. Standard eye rear springs will keep your rear at stock, mid-eye will lower an inch, and reverse eye will lower either 1.5" or 2", I forget which.

New arms will definately be a help from stock, but whether or not you need them right NOW depends on their condition. If they have a lot of play and the bushings are about gone, then you probably need new ones. Poly will make everything stiffer, so if your after handling, that's what you want.

any of the big mustang vendors should carry the same stuff, I got all mine from Mustangs Plus

 

[one2gamble]

I doubt the mid eye lowers the car even an inch unless mine intends to settle some more. I would say it sat it down maybe a half inch. I put kybs on all four corners and it stiffened the car up a lot, along with a bigger front sway bar the car feels pretty good. Next on my list are some tubular uppers, front springs and sub frames.

 

[iamadonut]

How do I know if my UCA/LCA's are in bad condition? What do you mean by "play?" If the bushings are worn, should I just replace with polygraphite all the way around keep the stock arms, or should I just spring for new ones?

PS: You're in Santa Rosa? I drive up there a few times a year to visit my Mom. Small world.

 

[ashford]

my best suspension mod was a $50 mustang II(cut the front end out of it) and 60 hours with grinder, torch ,welder, and tape measure. it was alot of work but the overall best thing i did to my car.

 

[iamadonut]

Unfortunately I don't have a Mustang II, grinder, welder or a torch. I don't even have a garage.

 

[LMan]

corner-carvers.com wiki site has a 'vintage Mustang suspension' section that addresses a lot of your concerns. I suggest you check it out!

 

[rhurley]

honestly, the best thing to do is go with a mustang II suspension.

Your going to want the following (one day or another):

-disc brakes
-rack and pinion steering

And, when redoing your suspension your going to need:

-New arms
-new shocks
-new springs

For a stock rebuild, your looking at around 800 dollars
Disc brakes can be from 400-1400
rack and pinion steering is always over 1000 dollars

Thus, your looking at 2500 minimum for a "good job"

OR.....do it the right way the first time:

rcmotorsports.net:

this kit removes the shock towers, allows for any size engine in the bay, great preformance parts, and best of all, a complete easy to follow kit
-andrew

 

[DukeGnarley]

some of us like shock towers

 

[RGS0907]

I love this thread.. I've been playing with improving my Shelby's suspension for many years. When I first got it, I could hold the steering wheel straight & still have the car bounce all over the road. I really thought that I was going to bang right into the highway divider.

I'll be really interested to see everyone's great advice. By far the best improvement (after getting all the slop out of the power steering) is with the tires. My biggest complaint is the isolated feel of the PS system.

 

[DarkBuddha]

Now, based on your initial post, it sounds like you're interested in and would benefit from a systematic progression of upgrades to the stock suspension. I had a lot of fun thinking about this, so I created a little write-up... you can find it here: http://groups.msn.com/DBsMustang/suspensionmodificationsteps.msnw

Hope this helps.

 

[Hack]

my best suspension mod was a $50 mustang II(cut the front end out of it) and 60 hours with grinder, torch ,welder, and tape measure. it was alot of work but the overall best thing i did to my car.

This is good advice for some people. However, you should also state that Mustang II is NOT the way to go for the best handling. If you want to cruise around and look cool on the street, MII front suspension is a good way. Removing the shock towers, etc. big changes to the car and the WOW factor is there. However, the MII suspension is not strong enough for hard use, especially if you plan on using a big block or ever putting one in.

A good rebuilt stock suspension will handle better than MII. Shelby drop is a good mod. I have all stock suspension rebuilt with Milodyne components. I did a 2" Shelby drop ( I had to shim the ball joints to prevent them from breaking). The stance of the car is improved and it handles well.

If you do a search on this site, you'll find that people have put roller bearings and heim joints into the front suspension of their Mustangs. These components are much better than bushings, as they don't deflect, and they rotate easily. I plan on doing some of these modifications, once I get the tools together. Should be a blast!

There are aftermarket suspensions out there, I'm sure they are good. They're also expensive. As others have said, you can get good improvements by stiffening the stock chassis and suspension. I've never seen anyone post about installing subframe connectors and not noticing a difference. People are generally very happy with the results.

I've looked a lot at cornercarvers forums. There's actually a lot more information here. Use the search button and you'll find hours of good informative reading.

I'm in the research phase of my chassis/suspension improvements as well. I want to end up road racing, and I hate to just do random mods because they look good or something. I want to actually know what I'm doing. There are a couple books you can also try, if you have the patience.
Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams is easy to get through in an evening or two.
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken is more of a text book, with a lot of math. I got mine used on Amazon for $60.

Good luck.

 

[usedtobe 67p51d]

I started out as a newbie wanting the car to be safe.

1st rebuild all new bushings tie rods & ball joints

2.nd rebuild...wanted the car to handle better-shelby drop Konie shocks stock springs

3rd rebuild stiffer bushings,Dr gas ball joint angle plates & bump steer kit 620# springs eibach rear springs &dr gas shocks


4th rebuild added tcp subframe kit 1 &2 {If I had looked harder at it I think that it could have been made 10#'lighter and much stiffer for the same price at a race car shop}

5th stage tcp a-arms,strut-rods 1"front bar 3/4 rear bar

6th stage dr gas rear shackles

7th stage underriders

8th global west road race springs front & rear oh and global west upper control arms after SHEERING off a tcp upper a arm



take a good look at what you realy want the car to do! there is nothing worsae than going middle of the road and having to spend more cash on new higherperformance items! first set of wheels 14X7 '68 gt's 2nd set 15X8 replicas of '68 gt's 3rd set 15X7 torque thrust "D"s 4 th set 16 X8 vintage 45's that fit better And allow 245's on all 4 corners! plan well = cash saved

 

[iamadonut]

Wow...lots of great advice here. DarkBuddha, can't wait to sit down and read your write-up. (And re-read it again, I'm sure).

Here's a follow-up question...I know R&P steering is over $1k, but those are all manual steering systems, right? Are there any power R&P systems that will fit without any heavy modifcation to the car? If R&P is too expensive, what do you suggest is the next best thing? Rebuilding the stock system or upgrading to ???

I'm about to go replace my rear shocks. One step at a time I suppose.

 

[iamadonut]

I have another question...

Right now there is a group purchase for "rollerized" perches at VMF. See here

Is it worth it to get roller perches but still use OEM arms?
On the same note, is it worth it to get new bushings but still use OEM arms?

 

[Hack]

Here's a follow-up question...I know R&P steering is over $1k, but those are all manual steering systems, right? Are there any power R&P systems that will fit without any heavy modifcation to the car? If R&P is too expensive, what do you suggest is the next best thing? Rebuilding the stock system or upgrading to ???

R&P is great, I'm sure. However, I think it's very common to end up with bump steer problems after putting it in. Headers can be difficult to fit with a R&P unit installed. Also, your turning radius will be reduced.

I'm using the stock manual steering box in my '70. I purchased a new box about 4 years ago. It's not like a new car, and it has to be adjusted every so often, but I think it works fine. I don't think it needs upgrading, unless you're just looking to try different things for the heck of it.

iamadonut
I don't have roller perches, but I plan on making some as soon as I have a welder and a little cash. My brand new perches were VERY difficult to move by hand. I can't imagine binding in the suspension being helpful. However, it's not something you need to do, that's for sure.

There's nothing wrong with the stock arms. Some people weld in reinforcements, but they aren't necessary.

 

[Route666]

If I had looked harder at it I think that it could have been made 10#'lighter and much stiffer for the same price at a race car shop

Can you show me/us the design you had in mind?