Rick Swain 96-98 Heads vs 99 PI Heads

[JohnnyLangton]

JohnnyLangton,

Are you sure the other T-birds with PI heads are running 3.73 gears, exhaust, converter & tuning like you are? There are so many variables that it's hard to compare vehicles. We will see how well your heads perform when/if you ever decide to get over 400 rwhp. Your non PI heads may work well for a car running high 12s with a decent trap speed, but that could mean they flow well enough in the first 1/8th and die in the 2nd.

Many of us have gone alot faster than 12s and I can't think of one person that was running a very good ET and trap speed using non-PI heads. The problem is your sample size is dwarfed by the number of modified mustangs out there and one car compared to a few others which may or may not have the same modifications will yield inaccurate results.

If you'll read through this post,or others linked here-you'll see that I'm comparing cars with the same tuning,same gears,similar exhaust,and similar converters.The closest car to me running PI's is using 4.10's.
Distance down the track means nothing where flow is concerned-the heads flow the same amount of air all the time-they don't know how far I am down the track,nor does it matter.
I believe we all can agree that 100 lbs=approx 1 tenth in the 1/4 mile,right?
If so,then remove 6 tenths for comparison to a street driven Mustang,or more than that if you're gonna try to compare to cars lIke Ken's that are seriously lightened.Do that,and my 12.98 drops to 12.38-now how many Automatic equipped cars run quicker than that? Your comparing number of modified Mustangs just dropped to very few.
Here's a cut/paste of the top 10 PI headed cars from the et list on Mod Depot:

1999 - 2003 2V Naturally Aspirated 1/4 ET:
1 . KenB - 10.83 @ 124.41 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
2 . Steve Drier (Houston Performance) - 11.45 @ 115.00 ( 1995 GT AUTO - SVO HEADS/INTAKE, STROKED )
3 . starkie - 11.52 @ 116.76 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
4 . madmike - 11.68 @ 115.66 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
5 . Bill Putnam - 11.97 @ 113.20 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
6 . John Edwards - 11.99 @ 112.10 ( 1999 GT AUTO )
7 . Randy Stinchcomb - 11.99 @ 113.65 ( 1996 GT 5 SPD - SVO HEADS/INTAKE )
8 . AutomaticWeapon - 12.05 @ 112.69 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
9 . ALLMTR2V - 12.05 @ 111.27 ( 1998 GT 5 SPD - HS )
10 . Racer_X - 12.15 @ 112.90 ( 1996 GT 5 SPD - HS )
11 . Doug Johnson (Fast2v) - 12.17 @ 112.02 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
12 . Kurgan - 12.24 @ 110.03 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
13 . Shane Williams - 12.25 @ 110.00 ( 1999 GT AUTO )
14 . Gary Youngblood - 12.26 @ 108.00 ( 2001 GT AUTO )
15 . TruBlu01 - 12.39 @ 108.89 ( 2001 GT 5 SPD )
16 . wiz03gt - 12.45 @ 108.03 ( 2003 GT 5 SPD - SOLD )
17 . silver2k2gt - 12.47 @ 107.68 ( 2002 GT AUTO )
18 . RavenGT - 12.50 @ 106.80 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD - SOLD )
19 . wht00gt - 12.59 @ 107.04 ( 2000 GT 5 SPD )
20 . Jeff99GT - 12.62 @ 106.51 ( 1999 GT 5 SPD )

By just a simple weight correction,my car would be #15,and that leaves only 4 auto equipped cars that are quicker.
JL

 

[Marc99GT]

JohnnyLangton

I was hardly speaking about KenB because that is a very unique situation and tons of hard work and effort went into that car. It is quite nasty to say the least.

You are still far from proving your point. Show me the list of fast 96-98 N/A GTs. Show me the list of the fastest 96-98 GTs with poweradders and stock heads ported or not. Your car is quick, but not fast in the 1/4.

So I waisted 4 years trying to build a fast car to run 10s using stock PI heads when the secret was in using ported non-PI heads? I don't think so. Like I said, prove it to me when you are trying to hit 400 rwhp. Then I will be a believer.

You have a nice theory about where you would be on the list, but it is still only that.

 

[JohnnyLangton]

JohnnyLangton

I was hardly speaking about KenB because that is a very unique situation and tons of hard work and effort went into that car. It is quite nasty to say the least.

You are still far from proving your point. Show me the list of fast 96-98 N/A GTs. Show me the list of the fastest 96-98 GTs with poweradders and stock heads ported or not. Your car is quick, but not fast in the 1/4.

So I waisted 4 years trying to build a fast car to run 10s using stock PI heads when the secret was in using ported non-PI heads? I don't think so. Like I said, prove it to me when you are trying to hit 400 rwhp. Then I will be a believer.

You have a nice theory about where you would be on the list, but it is still only that.

Amazing..earlier in this thread,people were saying that 300rwhp would never happen-not even close.I'm close,and with a better set of cams-it's in the bag.
Now it's 400rwhp with a power adder...Hmm..I guess I need to bolt on that little N20 kit that somebody keeps telling me to use.
As for another power adder car using Non-PI's..it's coming..as soon as Scott gets done with a few little things-it'll happen:
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48616

And yes,I've got a theory as to where I'd be on that list-and it's just that...a theory,but it's just as scientific as using altitude correction for DA.
JL

 

[Marc99GT]

Amazing..earlier in this thread,people were saying that 300rwhp would never happen-not even close.I'm close,and with a better set of cams-it's in the bag.
Now it's 400rwhp with a power adder...Hmm..I guess I need to bolt on that little N20 kit that somebody keeps telling me to use.
As for another power adder car using Non-PI's..it's coming..as soon as Scott gets done with a few little things-it'll happen:
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48616

And yes,I've got a theory as to where I'd be on that list-and it's just that...a theory,but it's just as scientific as using altitude correction for DA.
JL

Geez, he spent over 10K on the engine, I would kill myself if it didn't make over 400 rwhp with a T-trim. Did you see the total dollars he has put in the car? I hope it runs real fast. I was re-reading some of the posts and Tim (Cobra Killer) has the best idea. Send him the best set of Ported non-PI heads you can find and this will be settled quickly. Hell, I will fly down to his shop to see this and that monster he has.

You have to realize that many of spent significant time and money on our cars dealing with the best of the best at times over the years, and non-PI heads never entered the conversations except to get rid of them.

So that person with the 10K engine and T-trim is going to prove that it will make power. Big deal. When it's all said and done, have him put a set of ported PI heads and see if he loses/gains power. That will be the true test.

If you saw what the heads on my GN flowed (about 155 cfm @ .450), you would fall down, but yet guys run 10s & 11s with them and believe me, my GN is as heavy if not heavier than your T-bird.

I guess we were all clueless as to how to make power with our SOHCs over the years.

 

[CanadaStang]

It's sure nice to see a great discussion, with differences in opinion, with no bashing, bragging, or flaming, just facts and theories. I hope you guys stick around Stangnet as it's nice to hear about different paths to get to the same goal[ making HP]. Johnny, you've done an awesome job with the non pi's, amazing times.

 

[JohnnyLangton]

Geez, he spent over 10K on the engine, I would kill myself if it didn't make over 400 rwhp with a T-trim. Did you see the total dollars he has put in the car? I hope it runs real fast. I was re-reading some of the posts and Tim (Cobra Killer) has the best idea. Send him the best set of Ported non-PI heads you can find and this will be settled quickly. Hell, I will fly down to his shop to see this and that monster he has.

You have to realize that many of spent significant time and money on our cars dealing with the best of the best at times over the years, and non-PI heads never entered the conversations except to get rid of them.

So that person with the 10K engine and T-trim is going to prove that it will make power. Big deal. When it's all said and done, have him put a set of ported PI heads and see if he loses/gains power. That will be the true test.

If you saw what the heads on my GN flowed (about 155 cfm @ .450), you would fall down, but yet guys run 10s & 11s with them and believe me, my GN is as heavy if not heavier than your T-bird.

I guess we were all clueless as to how to make power with our SOHCs over the years.

Mike spent that much becuase he didn't as much as pick up a screwdriver-I challenge ANYBODY to get their hands on an engine with all of the same parts,and pieces with the same work done to it for less..it's not gonna happen.
I'm not gonna pit my production castings with portwork against a set of heads that have valves relocated,and welded ports.That's not a practical real world comparison,and nobody in a sane frame of mind would run those "super heads" from Tim on a daily driver.They're desinged with a S/C in mind for dyno numbers and race cars-not daily driven cars.
And now you're comparing heads from a TURBOCHARGED engine with those setup for a N/A engine.
That's Absurd.
JL

 

[Marc99GT]

Mike spent that much becuase he didn't as much as pick up a screwdriver-I challenge ANYBODY to get their hands on an engine with all of the same parts,and pieces with the same work done to it for less..it's not gonna happen.
I'm not gonna pit my production castings with portwork against a set of heads that have valves relocated,and welded ports.That's not a practical real world comparison,and nobody in a sane frame of mind would run those "super heads" from Tim on a daily driver.They're desinged with a S/C in mind for dyno numbers and race cars-not daily driven cars.
And now you're comparing heads from a TURBOCHARGED engine with those setup for a N/A engine.
That's Absurd.
JL

I wasn't comparing anything. My point was you can make power with crappy heads so using your friends car with a fully built engine and a T-trim makes no sense. The fact is he would make more power with ported PI heads. This is at the core of this discussion. You feel that ported non-PI heads will work better than ported PI heads and that has yet to be proven by any of the people that have been building SOHC engines since 96. There are probably 100:1 if not 1000:1 ratio of modified mustangs to T-birds and you are basing the performance of your car vs a few others that may or may not have similar mods to form a conclusion.

As far is Tim is concerned, he has significantly more experience dealing with REAL numbers and not unsupported theories than probably you or I will ever have.

Do you think he is inventing the wheel with his 10K engine? Many of us have had engines built before him.

I believe you are incorrect with your statements regarding non-PI heads. Many of us that have had the funds to deal with the best in the business with the 4.6 would have gone that route well before you became a member.

 

[JohnnyLangton]

The fact is he would make more power with ported PI heads. This is at the core of this discussion. You feel that ported non-PI heads will work better than ported PI heads and that has yet to be proven by any of the people that have been building SOHC engines since 96

It's true,and I've been told several times(by people that have more experience with these engines than anybody on earth)...
"You can't fix stupid-you just beat them at the track,and leave them wondering"
I'm done-no matter what I type here-you'll manage to twist it into another way to argue.It's no wonder Stangnet has a repuation as being the riceboy Mustang forum.
One more thing..I NEVER said that ported Non-PI's were better than Ported PI's-in fact they're so close in actual real world performance that it's just a matter of what you have-and how you want to work with it.
JL

 

[Marc99GT]

It's true,and I've been told several times(by people that have more experience with these engines than anybody on earth)...
"You can't fix stupid-you just beat them at the track,and leave them wondering"
I'm done-no matter what I type here-you'll manage to twist it into another way to argue.It's no wonder Stangnet has a repuation as being the riceboy Mustang forum.
One more thing..I NEVER said that ported Non-PI's were better than Ported PI's-in fact they're so close in actual real world performance that it's just a matter of what you have-and how you want to work with it.
JL

At the end of the day, we have a difference of opinion and there is nothing personal about it. I have gone faster with a GT on the stock longblock than many will go with P&P PI or NPI heads. I'm quite satisfied with my accomplishments with a Windsor SOHC.

"Stangnet has a repuation as being the riceboy Mustang forum" That was an unnecessary comment because people have a different opinion than you. Some people here actually have some experience going quick and fast N/A and using forced induction.