351w in a fox?!?!?!

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by 10seclx, Sep 4, 2003.


  1. 10seclx

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    I was just wondering exactally what is involved with putting a 351w into a fox??
     
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  2. ironmedic

    ironmedic New Member

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    um take the old engine out and put in the new one.

    gonna need new parts like 351 swap headers, new oil pan, and a couple others (forgot). you may need a new hood as well because of the deck height.
     
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  3. Justang_87

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    there is a bunch of crap to switch...first youll need the longblock...cause the only things that can be switch are the heads, and some other misc peices...you need motor mounts, hood, dist, and few other parts...if your serious on what you want...then let me know and ill give you the list to do it :flag:
     
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  4. hllon4whls

    hllon4whls BANNED
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    Winner!

    What he said and you need some new brackets because of the increased width of the 351. Unless you are going to make a drag car or a no comforts street car.

    393 or 408 is a hard combo to beat. Makes it worth the trouble to put the windsor in there.

    There is a lot of info on 351 and 460 swaps in this forum. Do a seach.
    The onlything that I find expensive is the headers. 1 3/4 coated headers will run just under $500.
     
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  5. 10seclx

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    okay as for the header, I don't need as I am doing a custom turbo kit for it. and the hood I already have a 4" cowl. I can get a 351 from a friend, if I give him my 302, I thought this was a GREAT deal! it si shorblock for short block, as I have performer heads, and a supervictor intake(useless with 351). when you say motor mounts, what do you mena, what exactally needs to be done, as I have a set of custom solid mounts, would those work??
     
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  6. keith1991

    keith1991 New Member

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    Here's what a fellow stanger posted not too long ago:

    351W Conversions, Every Nut and Bolt

    This Water Box was supposed to be Part II of How To Make Your Mustang Hook, but with the introduction of the new 351W Sportsman shortblock we have been bombarded with the same question from dozens of people: "What do I need besides the shortblock?" The traction trilogy will continue shortly.

    We have been doing 351W conversions for a fairly long time and are a big fan of the extra cubes and additional strength offered by a 351W over a 302 or 302 stroker. Be sure to check out several stories in the Water Box Archives to understand why we like them so much. But we have never sat down and listed all the miscellaneous parts you need for a complete conversion. Usually people think all you need is the oil pan kit, a lower intake and headers. While these are some of the major parts, there are dozens of lesser parts that are just as important.

    We have tried to list every single necessary component we can think of. While some of you may have sticker shock after adding up all the individual parts, it's important to remember that many of these same costs are encountered when building a healthy 302 or 302 stroker. If you already have a lot of money invested in quality 302 parts, a 351W may not seem attractive. But for those that do not have to take a loss on expensive headers and a ported lower intake, a 351W conversion may make more sense than a 302 stroker considering the extremely affordable $1695 price of a Sportsman Shortblock and the fact that it is several times stronger than a stroked factory 302 block.

    The parts list below makes the assumption that a pair of quality heads, roller rockers, roller lifters, adequate fuel injectors, at least a 65mm throttle body and upper intake are already owned. You'll also need to hold on to your stock water pump and timing cover. If your 302 is pretty much a virgin, you'll need to buy these major components, but you would have to have done the same for a 302 build up. No one ever said that horsepower was cheap. Smokey Yunick once asked a customer "How fast do you want to spend?"

    In some cases, you may be able to substitute other parts than the ones we have listed that will raise or lower the total you come up with. Also note that some of the parts are not necessary depending on your combination. An 86 - 93 conversion uses almost all the same parts as a 94 - 95 conversion, so prices will be nearly identical. Also left out of the equation are motor mounts that lower the engine a bit, while not absolutely necessary, they help provide extra hood clearance. HPM "drop solid" mounts are a nice piece and drop the engine 3/4".

    Part Price
    SVO Sportsman Shortblock $1695
    Oil Pump $35
    Oil Pump Shaft $15
    SVO Oil Pan Kit $145
    GT-40 351W Lower Intake $309
    SVO 351W Dampr $269
    Stock Type 351W Dampr (Brand New) $189
    ARP 1/2" Under Cut Head Studs $139
    Mac Shorty Headers $189
    Mac Long Tube Headers $289
    Correct Length Push Rods for Hydraulic Roller $85
    Flexplate for AOD or C-4 $80
    10.5" Steel SFI Flywheel - 28 oz balance $249
    Air Conditioning and Power Steering Bracket $60
    Power Steering Only Bracket $50
    Truck EFI Distributor $189
    Steel Distributor Gear $35
    Modify Vortech/Paxton/Powerdyne Bracket $175
    H.O. Fibertrends Hood with at Least a 1 1/2" Rise $385 + paint
    Complete Fel-Pro Race Gasket Set $159
    Motorsport or other Hydraulic Roller Cam $229
    SVO Timing Chain Set $69
    Magnecor Spark Plug Wires $69
    Oil, Coolant $20 - $45
    Labor to assemble 351W, R&R engine, tune $800 - $1200


    We've tried to be absolutely as thorough as possible in listing all these parts. But depending on particular combinations you may still need one or two things. It's impossible for us to foresee everything with so many possible combinations.

    So now you know what you're in for if you decide to take the plunge and install an engine that has a better rod ratio than any 302 stroker and offers the strength of an A4 block.
    _________________

    302 Strokers vs. 351W Conversions

    The one constant that can be seen throughout the performance industry is that fast is never fast enough. It's all too common for an enthusiast to add all the bolt-ons, pulleys, gears headers etc. Then add better breathing cylinder heads, an intake and a supercharger, turbocharger or nitrous. Now, they're standing around scratching their heads saying "What next?" As the old adage goes, "There's no replacement for displacement" and suddenly an engine with more cubic inches is the answer for the horsepower addict.

    The two most popular methods for increasing the displacement of the late model Mustang is a stroked 302, usually displacing somewhere between 321 and 347 cubes or a 351W conversion. The purpose of this installment of the Water Box is to examine both options and offer some insight into which is the better choice for the average enthusiast.

    Increasing the stroke of the stock 302 can yield substantial performance increases without affecting overall derivability or the car's current manners. Since it's visually impossible to tell that your 302 may actually be a 347, the extra stroke offers an element of surprise to unsuspecting competitors.

    While stroking a 302 has many benefits, it also has some shortcomings. Perhaps the most important point to consider is that the late model 302 block is structurally weak and prone to substantial flexing. In mild applications, block strength is not as important a concern as it is with higher horsepower levels (425 or more). To build a high horsepower stroked 302 that will not suffer constant head gasket failure and the threat of coming apart, a Motorsport A4 block is a must. The A4 block is the end all for head gasket problems and can safely channel 1000+ horsepower, it's the kind of block that engine builders dream about. The problem is cost. Add $500 - $750 in machining to the $1600 price tag of the bare block and it quickly becomes cost prohibitive for the average enthusiast. A stroked 302 can be reliable using a Mexican 302 block (which is much stronger than late model 302 blocks) but they're becoming more and more difficult find.

    Now let's focus on 351W conversions. We've built and installed dozens of 351W's in late model Mustangs and the results are very positive. The 351W is the answer to many of the 302's weaknesses. Even a late model 351W block ('79 - present), which is the weakest of all 351W castings, is significantly stronger than any production 302 including pre '81 302 blocks. The blocks are so much more rigid than 302's that while trying to squeeze every last hp out of our 351W '88 LX at Maple Grove, we detonated the engine hard enough to brake 2 pistons. Breaking pistons may sound like a tragedy, but it showed how well the 351W keeps head gaskets in place, all we were using were Fel-Pro 1011-1's, they weren't high tech head gaskets. If it had been a late model 302 block, we would have easily blown 4 sets of head gaskets during the weeks leading up to Maple Grove.

    The 351W also offers a more desirable rod ratio compared to a stroked 302. And let's not forget that a 351W can be stroked (but that's a different Water Box altogether). But perhaps the greatest benefit over a stroked 302 is the cost. A 351W shortblock directly from SVO is only around $1300. If you're looking to build a 351W from scratch, you should have no problem finding a good core at a salvage yard, and the final cost - using good steel rods and quality forged pistons will still be roughly the same as stroking a late model 302, but the 351W will be much stronger and more reliable.

    Now you're asking, what are the drawbacks to a 351W conversion. Well, you'll need a cowl or other raised hood with a 1 1/2" rise, a new lower intake manifold, new headers, one modified front dress bracket, and a new oil pan which can be purchased from SVO with a pick-up for only $135.00. A 351W can also give away the element of surprise to suspicious onlookers, but the vast majority of people fail to notice the difference in deck height, especially with an EFI engine that has a lot of accessories, plumbing and wiring.

    So, for the average enthusiast who wants more cubic inches without going broke, a 351W conversion is a better choice than stroking the inherently weak factory 302 block. Both will make approximately the same power, and cost roughly the same, but the 351W will be more reliable and much stronger, unless of course you opted for the A4 block. But don't misunderstand the purpose of this article. We are in no way saying that stroked 302's are unattractive, we've built several and all have worked out well. But when stroking a 302, we have always used Motorsport A4 blocks, so they're not a budget oriented project that the average enthusiast can undertake.
    _______________

    351w Swap Info.

    Written by: Mat Peirce aka MAT88GT

    This is an ongoing article and will be updated frequently. If you would like to see more questions answered feel free to contact me

    Will it fit?

    The deck height of a 351w is 9.480" for 1969-1970 blocks and 9.503" for 1971 and up blocks compared to the 8.2" deck height of the 302w block. This equates to a taller and wider motor. There have been many people who have squeezed 351's under the stock Mustang hood, but chances are at least a 1.5" cowl hood will be needed for the 351w combination. The motor mounts on 351w and 302w blocks are interchangeable.
    Can I reuse any 302w parts on the 351w?

    There are many interchangeable parts between the Windsor blocks. The 351w uses a wider intake than the 302w, but you can use a cobra upper with a 351w specific lower intake. Timing covers, water pumps, and several of the accessory brackets are interchangeable. You do need a FMS power steering and a/c bracket in most cases. Cylinder heads from a 302 can be used on a 351w block by drilling the head boltholes to accommodate the larger 1/2" 351w head bolts. The 302w fuel rail can be modified to fit the 351w by extending the rail crossover tube.
    Will my 302w balancer work on my 351w?

    The 351w uses a 28oz/in imbalance that is the same as early 302's. You can use a 28oz/in 302 balancer on the 351w.
    What is needed to use the serpentine belt setup from a 302 on a 351w?

    The 302 alternator bracket can be utilized on the 351w, along with the reverse rotation water pump along with the air conditioning and power steering brackets. The crank pulley requires a 3/8" spacer available from FRPP between it and the balancer for proper pulley alignment.
    What do I need for exhaust on the 351w?

    Swap headers are a must for a proper 351w installation. There are many suppliers of 351w swap headers and matching intermediate pipes including: Hooker Headers, Hedman, BBK, Mac, and Kooks. Most 351's will benefit from a 1 3/4" primary tube size.
    What parts are a must have for a 351w installation?

    First, you need an oil pan and matching pickup to mount the 351w into the Mustang that will clear the K-member. Moroso, Miloden, Canton, and FRPP all make exceptional 351w Mustang swap oil pans. Note that the FRPP version is a 5-quart capacity design while the others are 7 quarts. Crown Vicorias and Grand Marquis also have a dual sump 5-quart oil pan that will fit the Mustang K-member. Second, an intake is needed. If you are using EFI Edelbrock and TFS make intakes for EFI equipped 351's. You can also use a FRPP Cobra upper with a matching lower, or a 351w truck lower with stock EFI Mustang upper. For carbureted applications there are many companies making 351w carburetor intakes such as: Edelbrock, Holley, Weiand, and Offenhouser. You will need a 351w specific distributor. MSD and EFI equipped 351w Thick Film Ignition distributors will work with the Ford EFI EEC. Any points, Duraspark, or MSD distributor will work with a carbureted combination.
    What block should I use?

    All pre 1994 factory 351w blocks are non-roller designs. Blocks produced before the early 1980's used a two-piece rear main seal. Ford trucks and vans produced after the mid 70's use a stronger rod design often referred to as 'Football' rods because of their football shaped bolt heads. 1969-1970 blocks had a lower deck height (9.480") and provide more compression from the factory. These early blocks also have a stronger thick wall casting design and are often thought of as the strongest factory 351w block. Keep in mind that all 351w blocks are considerable stronger than the factory 302w block. If you need an exceptionably strong 351w block design FRPP and Dart both offer aftermarket 351w blocks in many varieties.
    How do I install a roller cam in my 351w?

    The easiest way to use a roller cam in the 351w is to find a F4TE casting number block from 1994 and later F-series trucks and E-series vans. If you happen to have a block produced before 1994 you can retrofit a roller cam quite easily. The first option is using 5.0L hydraulic roller lifters, retention spider, and lifter link bars with a reduced base circle hydraulic roller camshaft. This method requires machining the lifter valley to accept the spider bolts. Second, Comp, Crane, and Crower make retrofit roller lifter that will allow the use of any off the shelf 5.0L style hydraulic roller cam to be used in a non-roller 351w block. Any flat tappet 351w-302w flat tappet camshafts will work with the correct corresponding firing order.
    What vehicles should I get my 351w from at a junkyard?

    Ford produced many vehicles which used 351w motors including, but not limited to, the following... Mustangs Fairlanes Galaxies Cyclones Torinos LTD's Crown Victorias Grand Marquis Rancheros Cougars F-series trucks E-series vans Broncos
    What about a fuel system?

    The 351w is defiantly going to consume fuel at a higher rate than a smaller motor and you should upgrade the stock fuel system to provide for this thirst. EFI equipped Mustangs should use at least a 190lph in tank fuel pump and 24+ pound injectors. Many carbureted Mustangs use a Holley Blue pump or equivalent, which requires slight modifications to the stock in tank fuel pick-up to function properly. An adjustable fuel pressure regulator should be utilized with both EFI and carbed systems.
    _______________

    To help you identify your engine, both the 302 and the 351W have six valve cover bolts. The 351C, 351M and 400M have 8 valve cover bolts. The easiest way to tell a 302 from a 351W is to measure across the intake bolts. The 302 is approximately 71/2 inches wide, the 351 W will measure out at 91/4 inches. The distributor turns counter-clockwise on all Ford V-8s, so that won't help you.
    ________________
    351w swap headers
    351w intake (or just the lower for what you've got)
    fuel rails - modify your stock ones or buy a kit like that Mallory one in the Summit catalog.
    All the sensors will come over (except the low oil in-the-pan sensor)
    The timing cover bolts tight up off the 302
    The motorsport pan kit works well so long as you use a Std. oil pump (no High volume)
    If you want oil pan rails (like you have on the 302), get 'em from a '95 Lightning at your Ford dealer
    The front sway bar doesn't fit anymore - I think one off an SN-95 would solve the problem (brackets and all)
    For a distributor, I used one from an '88 Truck 5.8L and swapped the distributor gear for the steel one off the 302 one.
    The A/C and Power Steering bracket is cheap from FMS (for a fox car)
    cut the smog tube on the back of the heads and lengthen it with a length of silicone hose
    you'll have to lengthen the vacuum line that goes to the fuel pressure regulator by about 1"
    You'll need to find a hood that'll clear your intake. I use the TFS intake and my 4" Cobra 'R' hood still hit by the throttle body. Some of the cowl / Cobra 'R' hoods are wider at the base of the windshield - this is your BEST FREIND.
    _________

    351 Mustang Parts List
    Parts to order from Ford Motorsport
    Description Part Number
    Lightning Shortblock (Roller Ready) M-6009-B58
    Cobra Intake Kit, 351W (6) M-9424-D50 Upper, M-9461-A58 Lower
    Cobra Intake Center Bolts Get these from PPI
    Intake Manifold Bolt Kit (8) M-6002-A50
    Oil Pan Kit, 351W M-6675-A58
    Crank pulley spacer M-8510-B351
    Crankshaft damper M-6316-C351 or E8TE-6316-A3A (E8 part is used on '95 Cobra R)
    Shorty Headers ('79-'93 / '94-'95) M-9430-A58 / M-9430-R58
    Header Gaskets M-9448-A302
    Accessory Bracket (A/C / A/C delete)(9) M-8511-B351 / M-8511-A351
    Hydraulic Roller Lifters(1) M-6500-R302
    Flywheel 28.2oz imbalance (5sp only) M-6375-A302
    HD Clutch Kit (5sp only) M-7560-A302
    Shorty Headers (79-93) M-9430-A58

    Parts to order from Ford
    Description Part Number
    Pushrod(1)s F4TZ-6565-C (94 F-150)
    M-6565-A58 5.8L Hydraulic Roller Tappet
    D8OE-6565-A1A 5.8L Flat Tappet
    Timing Chain Cover ('93-down / '94-up) E3AE-6019-A / F1SE-6P041-AB
    Timing Chain Cover Bolts (8) (2) 56126-S2 (3), 56131-S2(4), 56135-S2(1), 56123-S2(2), 388551-S2(1)(Stud)
    Waterpump bolts(8) (2) ???
    Coolant Transfer Tubes(4) F3ZE-9D424-AA
    Distributor, 351W EFI ('93-down / '94-up)(2) D7TE-12127-D / E9TE-12127-CA
    Hydraulic Lifter Guide Plates(1) E5ZZ-6K512-A
    Lifter Guide Plate Retainer(1) F0AZ-6C515-A
    (1)(5)Lifter Guide Plate Retainer Bolts ???
    Coolant Bypass Hose E7SZ-18472-A
    Coolant Hose (Pump to Transfer Tube) ???
    Oil Pan Reinforcement, 5.8, Right Side E7AZ-6A74-C
    Oil Pan Reinforcement, 5.8, Left Side E7AZ-6A74-D
    Oil Pan Bolts 1/4" 390658-S2
    Oil Pan Bolts 5/16" 390657-S2
    Oil Pump Pickup Bolt (7) 357235-S
    (7)Oil Pump Pickup to maincap bolt mounting locknut 382802-S191
    Oil Pump Bolt/Lockwasher (size??) (5) 382951-S
    (3)ECT Sensor F2AZ-12A648-A
    (3)ACT Sensor F2DZ-12A697-A
    (3)Block Plate D9ZZ-7007-A
    (3)Bolt, Flywheel to Crankshaft 1ZZ-6379-A or 39127-S
    Lower Gasket Set E9AZ-6E078-B
    Intake Gasket Set F3TZ-9433-D
    (8)(5)Throttle Body to Intake Mounting Bolts 45357-S8
    Timing Pointer F1TE-6023-BA
    Balancer Bolt E0AZ-6A340-A or 376706-S
    Balancer Washer EDC-6378-A

    Notes:

    Order only if F4TZ Roller Block is used or use flat tappet part number. Motorsport part number probably cross references.
    Not certain about '93-down part number (I purchased second hand, this part might not have signature PIP wheel necessary for SEFI). Change gear for roller cam.
    Same as 5.0, You may be able to re-use, but I elected to buy new.
    These are for Cobra Intake, use stock 5.0 EFI for GT-40 intake.
    Used hardware from hardware store instead of Ford part.
    This is available together as a kit from PPI.
    According to the October 1996 issue of Mustang Monthly, Totally Stainless has Stainless engine dress HW for EFI-specific applications. This may be a good way to not need to strip your old 5.0 of its hardware, and get great looking fasteners in the process. If only I had this tip earlier. Check it out!
    Not needed for SN-95. I've been told the stock brackets can be easily modified.
     
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  7. 10seclx

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    WOW...thanks that is some crazy good info, and I will definatlly use it in the weeks to come, cause I am almost positive I am gonna trade him now! I want that motor so badly now!
     
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  8. 10seclx

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    who has actually done a 351 into fox swap??? what needs to be done to mounts?? someone mentioned mounts but I couldn't find anything about them in the articles?!?!
     
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  9. keith1991

    keith1991 New Member

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    Well judging by what other people say, stock mounts will line up. Here's the thread with the info:

    351 swap info

    Hope this helps. I eventually want to do a 351 swap too, but I plan to move to California and I don't know if the state would like a carb'd 351 in an 88 lx.

    Keith
     
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  10. sinner

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  11. QDRHRSE

    QDRHRSE New Member

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    The longest post ever....

    Wow. How do you follow up a post like that? Is the Alternative Auto website back up?
     
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  12. Iowa91LX

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    The heads have to be drilled out to 1/2". Standard head bolts for the 302 are 7/16".
    The factory motor mounts are not designed to hold up to the power of a 351. If you are replacing them you may as well get ones that drop your motor so the Windsor wont stick up so high. I am using vert motor mounts, and a 4" Harwood hood.
     
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  13. 10seclx

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    very sweet thanks alot!
     
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  14. 10seclx

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    even aftermarket heads have to be drilled out??
     
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  15. Iowa91LX

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    The head bolt holes on TFS and AFR and all others are for 302s. All you have to do is take them to a shop, or do it yourself and enlarge the holes to 1/2"
    I had TEA do mine while the heads were already getting CNC ported and machined.
     
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  16. SPEEDYLIFSAVR

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    That is an awesome informative article . Its definately getting saved for future referance!!

    :nice: Thanks
     
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  17. Darth Menace

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    what about a stock 5 speed and sotck 8.8 rear>
     
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  18. SVTCobraLTD

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  19. SVTCobraLTD

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  20. Boss351

    Boss351 New Member

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    I just had to bump this up since I wanted to thank keith1991 for the info!
     
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