Actually. that was what I thought as well. However after speaking with Marty, from Ford Racing..he found out some info. concerning the HC trap, from a Ford engineer, who used to be an SCT tuner. and they later both confirmed, that NO calibration changes were made to the stock programming, after FORD discontinued installing the HC traps, in mid 05.. in addition, I also spoke to Sean, from Murillo Motorsports, who is also an SCT tuner and used to work at FORD, and he also confirms this as well.. he also claims, that unless a critical issue would warrant a programming or calibration change of any kind, especially during the middle of a production year..its FORD's policy to avoid making any un-necessary changes, mostly because of additional programming expenses involved.. and when it comes to Ford managment..it doesn't surprise me, in the least bit.. LOL... As to why K&N requires the HC trap.. there are only 2 reasons I can think of that would possibly make any sense.. 1. would be for emission concerns, meaning covering thier butt. and 2. the combination of removing the HC trap, and installing a high flow drop in filter, may cause the air fuel ratio, to go lean beyond the 5% adjustment range..other than that, I really have no other reason, I can think of, that would possibly make any sense..Anyway, hope this helps answer some of you're concerns..
What you guys are saying basically makes sense. The whole thing boils down to the rate at which air flows through your MAF sensor. If that is not appreciably changed, your stock PCM can handle it. Anywhere outside of the 5% range mentioned is going to require re-tuning. My experience was with an AFE CAI. It did not require a tune. No codes or safe mode problems. It did seem to do some good, but even 5 or 10 HP is hard to feel in the SOTP dyno I have. What really helped was the tune from Paul's High Performance in an SCT Xcalibrator-2. Yes, if you add the cost of the CAI ($300) and the SCT ($385) that's a fair chunk of money. But, I can tell you that combo really performs. It is a whole new car. Little if any throttle lag, super responsive, great WOT shifts with the auto, very smooth at low speeds, gas mileage hasn't dropped, I think it was a great deal. I don't know what the HP gain is, but it is significant. Even my SOTP dyno had no trouble figuring this one out.
I was also looking into the AFE kit as well, in fact..you may find this info. very useful..I spoke to Eric Bajza, who is the Sr. project engineer for AFE, and also asked him, what the difference in comparison between the AFE and the K&N.. and he informed me that the reason why the AFE does not reqiure the HC trap. is because the MAF housing design, is 73mm. which is smaller compared to the stock housing, which is 79.5mm. Therefore because of the smaller than stock housing size, the PCM range remains well within the 5% adjustment area.. where on the other hand..the K&N housing is either about the same size as stock or is just slightly larger, which is then just enough to go outside of the 5% range, unless the HC trap. is installed, which in this case does seem to make sense..Anyway, thats how he explained it all to me..So hope you find this helpful...:SNSign:
But the question is then, is it worth the risk of reprogramming the ECU? If its hooked up to a programmer it gets a code in there. Ford can pull up the code and BOOM voided warranty. Even if the stock program is put back in it still shows there was some fiddling with it. The only way I thought to get rid of it is to unplug the battery and let it sit. But then THAT sets off a code too. I'm confused though. I have some mod money set aside and have no idea what to spend it on!
This is why, you should have a custom tune performed by a reputible tuner, such as doug@bamachips.com, brent@brenspeed.com, lidio@alternativeauto.com, ken@mdmotorsports.com and finally sean@murillomotorsports.com...these guys really know their stuff and will provide you with a custom tune, thats tuned for you're specific application..as for the programmer itself..the SCT tuner has the ability to read and troubleshoot codes, and will take you step by step to get rid of them..as for Ford knowing that you reprogrammed your computer..all you do is..1. return the stock program. 2. disconnect the battery 3. reconnect the battery, after an hour or so...4. drive the vehicle for about 50 miles and Ford will never know, that you changed anything..and even if for the sake of argument they did find out...they have to prove that the performance tune and or the aftermarket part, was responsible for causing any damages to you're vehicle...There's a law called the Magnuson-moss act. that prohibits Dealers from denying warranty claims, due to the use of aftermarket parts..So you really have nothing to worry about..Anyway, hope this helps and good luck to you..
No sir that act doesnt exist according to Ford Motor Company. If they think you've modded your vehicles, good bye warranty.
Well excuse me sir.. It was you that asked for advice, therefore I attempted to provide you with best possible solution available, However if you feel that I'm so full of BS, along with the majoirty of other members in this forum, who will also confirm what i had mentioned, concerning the maguson-moss act..which by the way.. is a federal law, that was passed by congress in 1975...Then perhaps you shouldn't be asking for advice, to begin with..I was only trying to help you..However if you don't wish to take my word for it..then by all means..ask any of the other members, in this forum..and they will confirm everything I had mentioned, and if you still have any doubt...then don't purchase a cold air kit, that requires a computer retune..its as simple as that. and again, I don't know who told you this to begin with, but I'll say this again..Ford cannot void your warranty, unless they can prove that the combination of performance parts, and or computer tune was responsible, for causing damage to the part or parts, that are under warranty....otherwise if that were the case..they could void your warranty, for just adding a K&N air filter, which by the way..is also considered a performance modification, as far as FORD is concerned, but the fact is..they cannot, its illegal..And Ill give you one last bit of advice..if your dealer is being this unreasonable towards you..then I would consider, finding another Dealer who will be willing to work with you..and not against you..And if you're still worried about Ford finding any codes..you just return the vehicle back to the stock program.. then disconnect the battery.. then reconnect it after an hour, and most important..make sure that you drive the vehicle for at least 50 miles, before taking the vehicle in for serivce..and if you follow each of these steps..there will be no code, for Ford to find, and that is a fact...I know this through my own personal experience, and any experienced SCT tuner will also confirm this, as well...
You don't owe me apology, because you did nothing wrong...its me that owes you one, and I'm sorry for misunderstanding you..the fact is, if I had realized that it was Ford you were directing you're frustration towards, instead of allowing my foolish pride, to get in the way..I would have never took what you said in the wrong way to begin with. So once again please accept my apology, and if there's anything I can assist you with.. just let me know...
Here's a CAI that requires no retune http://www.wmsracing.com/wmsweb/05hvi.htm btw, Ford can void the warranty on your vehicle if the causal part for the failure is found to be a modification. The purpose of this communication is to clarify the warranty coverage on vehicle modifications. All Dealer Principals, Service Managers and Parts Managers are requested to: Timing: Review this information with all affected dealership personnel. June 2, 2003 FORD OF CANADA'S POSITION ON VEHICLE MODIFICATIONS The purpose of this communication is to clarify Ford of Canada's policy on vehicle modifications. For vehicles that are not modified, the warranty policy is clear--we back our products within the guidelines of the new vehicle limited warranty, which is designed to protect the customer from defects in workmanship and/or material. However, in the case of vehicles that have been modified, the modifications may affect warranty coverage. This is because damage or failures of the new vehicle components CAUSED by modifications to the vehicle are not defects in "factory supplied" workmanship or material. STATEMENTS OF COVERAGE Ford states clearly in the Owner Information Guide provided with every new vehicle in the chapter "What Is Not Covered Under this New Vehicle Limited Warranty?" "Damage Caused By: • • Non-Ford parts installed after the vehicle leaves Ford of Canada's control. For example, but not limited to, cellular phones, alarm systems, and remote starting systems." And also in the chapter "Other Items/Conditions Not Covered by this arranty" W “Examples of other items that are not covered are: Non-Ford parts of your vehicle that are installed by body builders or manufacturers other than Ford; or damage to Ford components caused by the installation of non-Ford parts." Ford of Canada will be updating the 2004 model year Owner Information Guide with additional language to clarify this information to owners. TYPICAL MODIFICATIONS THAT MAY CAUSE WARRANTY DENIAL Some non-Ford modifications that may cause damage to the vehicle for which warranty protection might be denied include: Power chips or unauthorized re-programming of the powertrain control module that modify the original Powertrain calibrations, supercharger or turbo-charger installations, under drive pulleys to engine front accessory drives, transmission "shift kits," low restriction air intake and filter systems, low restriction exhaust systems, Nitrous Oxide systems (gas engines) and Propane systems (diesel engines), final drive axle ratio changes, aftermarket wheels, alterations to fuel systems and wiring harnesses. WARRANTY DENIAL Although the installation of these non-Ford parts and after-market modifications, by themselves, will not void the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, failures of the vehicle's engine or transmission or other components that are the result of these parts and/or modifications may result in a denial of warranty for the Ford component that failed or damage that results. For complete details on nonreimbursable conditions consult Warranty & Policy Manual section 3A. DEALER INSTALLATION AND MARKETING OF THESE COMPONENTS, PROVINCIAL REGULATIONS Provincial environmental regulations, such as Ontario's Drive Clean Program, may make it illegal to install devices on or to disconnect, remove or alter the emission control system of a vehicle so that it cannot perform the function for which it was intended. Dealers who are installing power enhancement and unknown performance enhancing devices should make customers aware that the addition of these devices may cause failures of drivetrain components that may not be covered under the Ford New Vehicle Limited Warranty and may even be illegal. Dealers are recommended to check their own provincial regulations for the standards and penalties that apply in their province. Ford of Canada strongly suggests that dealers do not install or market components that may cause damage to the vehicles components. EFFECTS OF MODIFICATIONS ON PRIOR APPROVAL Engine and Transmission assembly replacements for which Ford of Canada is participating in the repair (New Vehicle Limited Warranty, Service Part Warranty, and After Warranty Adjustments) require prior approval by the Warranty Hotline Powertrain Prior Approval Team, with the exception of ESP and Company-Approved After Warranty Adjustment (CAAWA) which require approval from the ESP department and the NACRC respectively. The Prior Approval Representatives are skilled and knowledgeable about the various kinds of non-Ford parts (and any parts – Ford or aftermarket - designated for "off road use only") and modifications that can potentially affect engine, transmission and other vehicle systems. Where evidence of such part or modifications exists and the failure or damage is the result of such part or modification – Warranty coverage will likely be denied for the repair.
I believe that I've pretty much covered, what you've just posted, concerning what conditions FORD can void a factory warranty, and I did confirm in my reply to another member that if it can be proven ,that the aftermarket part and or combination of re-programming the power module, is responsible for casuing damage to factory drivetrain components, or causing failures..then YES even according to the Maguson-Moss act. FORD can void the factory warranty..However in my reply to the member in question, he was concerned and was told that if FORD even discovered that an aftermarket part, was installed, and or any re-programming of the power module was performed.. his warranty would be voided, and in this case.. According to the Maguson-moss act..Ford cannot legally void a factory warranty, for just simply installing an aftermarket component, and that was the issue, I had addressed in response to this particular member's concern..As for Ford of Canada's policy.. I can't comment one way or the other, but then again..thier policies, in this matter.. aren't the issue of concern here, all I can address are the laws and policies, concerning the U.S..Anyway, just wanted to voice and BTW..clerify my intended purpose, for this post..
For those of you, who may be interested.. I found this thread on the The Mustang Source Forum, that goes into furthur detail about the factory warranty issues.. its an article written by Joe Bradley, who is manager of Ford's Warranty Analysis Department..I'll have to copy and paste the entire interview, due to my browser won't allow me to, include a hyperlink.. sorry for such the long thread.. Modifying Warranty Awareness Know that when you modify your vehicle, you may also be affecting warranty coverage Editor's Note: A recent article in the SVT Enthusiast discussed the pros and cons of changing engine drive pulleys to help enhance power and performance. The story noted that one of the drawbacks to such an aftermarket modification is the possible effect it would have on the owner's New Vehicle Limited Warranty. When SVT's own Tom Scarpello read the story, he felt that the whole vehicle modification vs. warranty issue is one that deserves a little more than a cursory explanation, especially to performance-savvy SVT vehicle owners. So he asked Joe Bradley, the Manager of Ford's Warranty Analysis department, to add a little perspective on how certain vehicle modifications can affect the service life of some factory parts or systems, and how that may subsequently affect the factory vehicle warranty. The following is Joe's report. By Joe Bradley As you might expect from the company that formed SVT, the Ford Motor Company has many employees who are true performance enthusiasts -- folks who love and care for their personal high-performance vehicles as much as or more than the next guy or gal. Many of us, in fact, are true "weekend warriors" who can be found at the local drag strip or road course on Saturdays and Sundays, and tinkering under the hood during weekday evenings getting ready for the next event. As automotive enthusiasts, we certainly can appreciate performance machinery. That said, as Ford employees we all want to do the right thing for our customers as well as for the Ford Motor Company. That is precisely why it is important to have a concise, easy-to-understand policy with regard to Ford warranty administration. For vehicles that are not modified, the Ford warranty policy is clear – the company backs its products within the guidelines of the new vehicle limited warranty, which is designed to protect the customer from defects in factory workmanship and/or material. However, in the case of vehicles that have been modified, one needs to understand that the modifications may affect warranty coverage. This is simply because any damage or failure of new vehicle components or systems that was caused by modifications to the vehicle are not defects in "factory supplied" workmanship or material. To illustrate this point, let's consider a small sample of vehicle modifications and see how they might affect factory components or systems: When it comes to changing the factory engine drive pulleys, there are some powertrain system and component concerns that deserve consideration. One would be any electrical and/or charging system problems that arise because of reduced alternator operating speed caused by the installation of underdrive pulleys. After all, the performance and serviceability of many system components are based on certain design parameters that include operating speed. The same goes for problems stemming from higher cooling system temperatures because of reduced water pump flow caused by the installation of underdrive pulleys. Increased underhood temperatures caused by owner-induced changes to a factory design-specification part can have a detrimental effect on any number of powertrain components or systems – some that may have long-range implications. And things can get even more serious when supercharger pulley changes are made, including head gasket leaks and piston and connecting rod failures. Also possible is piston damage due to detonation from improper air/fuel and timing modifications. The installation of any non-factory forced induction system can also cause problems. Base engines modified with aftermarket superchargers, turbochargers or nitrous oxide injection systems may indeed bring about some power gains, but they can cause piston, connecting rod and/or crankshaft failures as well. Other parts of a vehicle's factory-spec drivetrain are also susceptible to damage when engine torque and horsepower is increased. Performance chips or other power-enhancing devices increase torque loads on the driveline and can force failure of the transmission and/or rear axle. The latter problem can be especially true when owners switch to wider tires or racing slicks in an effort to increase traction. Even non "go-fast" aftermarket accessories such as remote starters, alarms, supplementary gauges and audio equipment can cause electrical system service problems if they are installed incorrectly or have improper connections. When it comes to fairly evaluating the possibility of a warranty denial, there's one simple rule of thumb to follow: Although the installation of non-Ford parts and aftermarket modifications, by themselves, will not void the Ford New Vehicle Limited Warranty, failures that result from these parts and/or modifications may result in a denial of warranty coverage for such failures or damage. The bottom line is, Ford Motor Company wants each of its owners to enjoy their product to the fullest extent – and that includes performance vehicles. But dealer service technicians have seen, and continue to see, that modifications may cause the original design to fail. The addition of aftermarket parts is a risk that each and every vehicle owner must evaluate for themselves. All that's needed is a reasonable dose of common sense. When and if you modify your vehicle, please consider whether the modification may cause another component to fail – and if it does, recognize that warranty coverage for that failure or damage will likely be denied. Here is the way I see it. 1) From a strictly legal stand point it "can" void your warrantee on most drivetrain components. 2) Ford has laywers on staff, so in a legal exquisite feeling release of liquid waste product match you are going to lose. Legal or not, fair or not, the legal clout Ford could bring to bear will put the burden of proof on you. 3) The Magnasun-Moss act ( the one every preformance adder quotes) was originally written to prevent manufactures from voiding the warrantee on your car if you chose to use NON-Manufactures consumable parts like: Oil, Filters, Brakes, shocks, etc... It was NEVER written or intended to cover parts that are installed primarly to increass hp and torque. I doubt that the law would hold up in court when the components were installed mainly to add HP. 4) Look at it this way: Lets say you break somthing in the Transmission after installing the tune. The Ford lawyer asks: Does this device add HP and Torque to the engine? To avoid purjury you answer "Yes"... You just lost the case.... 5) However, if you have a good dealer who does preformance mods you probably have nothing to worry about. A Tune is not all that major of a modification and unless it is done incorrectly, I doubt any resonable person would think it would be responsible for breaking somthing... Now, if you sho up at the dealer with DOT Drag radials and numers written on the windows,..... well... You are on your own.... heck, not only did I still have numbers on the window, I still had my helmet in the back seat! LOL! Each dealership is different... The dealership I go to is amazingly cool with my mods... Like I said the service writer goes to get the car's milage and says "Why do you have a helmet in your car" wink.. wink.. The dealership went on to replace my TPS for free even though my Zex kit was still spliced into the TPS wire! But on the other hand one guy posted that his dealership gave him a hard time about the popping front noise... tried to blame it on his aftermarket muffler! LOL! I was at a car show this summer.. Got to talking to a guy who worked for Chrysler as a Factory Rep... his sole job was to look at warranty claims... We were talking about me using Nitrous... He had seen numerous cars that had blown motors that he knew were the result of a power adder that had since been removed but said since there was no way he could actually prove that it was the cause the failure so they fixed it... I agree though that tuner is a pretty safe bet....Notice that he basically said that Ford follows low (Magnuson-Moss Act) in regard to warranty process. If you did something that broke the car, and they can prove it, you are on your own. As you should be. If they can't prove it, or you didn't do anything, it is covered. Also, the Magnuson-Moss Act is a WARRANTY act. Not just a "consumables" act. There is a lot in there regarding consumables (mainly because dealers were doing the "if you don't have use change the oil at xyz intervals with our oil/filter/etc, then your warranty is void!" kind of crap), but it also goes into general warranty protection. Including modifications. And yes, Ford DOES have a lot of lawyers. There is also provisions in the act that force things to arbitration instead of the courts too. I have had the service department scrupulously search to find the tune on our car and they cannot find it with ANY of the 3 types of scanners they use to update the computer or reflash with. As in every time this issue comes up we find again that the results are highly subjective to the dealership at which you service your vehicle and at what lengths if any that they are willing to help you when it is or isn't a FORD problem. As scrming has posted we have the same luck with the dealer we use, they always are there to help. But 9 miles away at another dealer they would laugh and say "We have seen your wife tear the crap out of that car at the dragstrip, no way will we replace anything unless it is a recall or TSB. Even with that you will only get one chance." Both dealers know we race and spray but one is proud to claim that they sold us the car and do warranty work. This isn't to say that if we spit parts out of the oil pan that they would help me get a new engine but they might chance it, and if the Ford inspector showed up the worst case scenario I would have to pay them for what they have already done. Fair gamble IMO.
To sum it all up, is all about the air flow, those that say the dont need a tune dont flow much more than stock.
TUNE GET A TUNE, YOU WILL NEED IT...YOU WILL BE HAVING CODES COMING ON ALL THE TIME IF YOU DON'T. DIABLO PREDATOR IS GREAT
