ford come back

Discussion in '2005 - 2014 S-197 Mustang -General/Talk-' started by chefster, Jul 15, 2006.


  1. Gorilla68

    Gorilla68 New Member

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    A long response - sorry but I had to vent a bit

    You are apparently a union guy so i will ask you, do you think ANY non union jobs would provide all the health benefits, drug & alcohol rehabs and retirement plans the unions demand? not to mention the fixed hours, double overtime clauses, and granular job specificities so you as a worker do 1 and only 1 job? so the next guy can do another job and only that job? so now there are 2 guys doing 2 jobs that maybe 1 guy could do both things??? in privatized industry, you would be told to get off your butt and do both things and maybe a few more so the company can stay competitive and you get to keep your job. these are tough times. either you run lean and mean or you get f'd by competitors.

    you union guys have to make a living, that's fine. the economy sucks so you need to make a certain amount of dough to stay alive, we get it. we have foreign cars imported every day being made by people making 50 bucks a month if they are supervisors. back in the USA, the unions say guys at this level get this much and 4 weeks paid vacation and he cannot be fired without a hearing and all the other perks and demands. I'm not talking out my butt, I have many friends in unions including one of my bros who just got back from iraq, so I am sympathetic. I'm not bashing, just speaking logically.

    how can US industry compete unless we shut out the rest of the world? for what it's costing US companies to make one car, our friends in mexico, korea, japan, hong hong and elsewhere can make 4-5 cars just solely due to lower overhead. how can management NOT see that and see the short term solution is to move manufacturing offshore? they have people to answer to, the shareholders. Or maybe they should keep the comapny running inefficiently to spare the jobs of the people that are, in their eyes, costing too much, always asking for more, and unwilling to bend on the things they want? A lot of this is echoing some of your points earlier in the thread. And yes - historically, unions are the reason there are labor laws in place.

    to be fair - I agree with your take on management. there are too many chiefs and not enough indians at the top rungs of management, and as I said in my post, they make decisions at glacial speed. too many people = diffused accountability. nobody wants to make decisions on their own so it becomes a 14 month group process to order blue bic pens instead of black. if the blue pens suck, it was EVERYBODYS fault - so it was nobody's fault. Often times these people get promoted to an inverse level to their ineptitude. I deal with these C-Level managers in my work in advertising. they are mostly idiots.

    as far as overpriced, the GT I ordered is a little overpriced at around 30K. I'm no cheapskate, for the record. I got almost every option they offered. the v6 at 19K is fair. this also relates to another part of my later post as to why is there a 10 grand difference between the base model and the supremo model? it is a bit much, no?

    as for the GT500 @ 20K over - I love stangs but for the money, I'd rather get a vette or an old porsche or some other car I've always wanted.

    as far as the blazer - I wanted a small sporty 2 door SUV. I got the ZR2 model with the high suspension and big tires, it looked pretty mean with the brushguard and the step rails. is it too much to ask that a $28,000 vechicle last for 3 years and 34000 miles without screwing up? I swore I'd never buy an american car again, especially after leasing a toyota 4runner that has had NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER, but here I am waiting to take delivery on my 'stang and i am stoked about it. I hope I am not disappointed.
     
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  2. bakorexer

    bakorexer New Member

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    I greatly agree with your statement!
    I have seen too many companies shut down and leave California due to the strong arming of these unions. Majority of all the imported cars from Japan are being manufactured for less and the profit margins are greater due to not having a union. Toyota for example is another one of the manufacturers that are still being productive and making gains each year even though the U.S. has placed higher taxes and tariffs on them. Toyota started the "think mean, operate lean" attitude and allowed other companies to bid on assembling the automobiles here in the states. It is only obvious that unions are suppressing the competitiveness as well as the productivity. I sir greatly agree with you, as the company I work for has been forced to out source a lot of our business based upon environmental issues as well as union disputes, which continues to stifle production and profitability; but I also live in California, the same state that the union spent more in propaganda in the last election that both of the candidates did in the last presidential election. Go Figure.



     
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  3. Schlitz-420

    Schlitz-420 New Member

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    That's funny, I have to do a variety of jobs in my position as well as train and supervise. Yes i think some jobs would provide the above mentioned benefits, the casino where i live provides better benefits than i have and i am in a union. I have never heard of double overtime and my hours are not fixed other than which schedule of many one is assigned.

    If you look back up i said the same thing, the UAW in Michigan has given unions a bad name. We agree.

    They have to do what they have to do in their opinion but i think that when these things happen union contracts should be voided if they are unreasonable and are going to cause the necessary changes in moving labor. At the same time management should not be able to make stupid deals that are shortly thereafter untenable thus requiring drastic changes in labor costs in order to stay competitive. I hate the WTO and would rather pay more for what i buy in order that American's made it.

    I felt like it was a good deal and I paid $28K for mine (too much). I said I think the GT500 is a great car for sticker, not with the markup.
     
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  4. Rock36

    Rock36 Member

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    I think there are some gross generalizations in that statement with the only thing to back it up is that you have a friend in the Unions. Schlitz-420 pointed out some false assertions himself.

    Germany has some very strict labor laws and everything you criticize, but yet they have successful automotive industries. Perhaps it is thier nationalized health care that shifts the burden from the automotive industry, but you also seem to be the type who would go against a nationalized health care system too. So how are thier automotive companies successful with unions and more severe labor laws?

    If you point to Germany's quality product, advertising, and styling then you are ignoring the assertion you just made about unions choking the industry. Since, again, Germany achieves their quality product under strict labor demands.

    Furthermore I'm sure any supervisor making only 50 dollars a month also lives in a country where 50 dollars goes a long way. Comparing that to an American salary isn't fair.

    Based on the context of your posts I going to assume you look at this in a generally negative light. Personally, I would love to return to the time when there were no child labor laws, no safety standards, no OSHA, no sick leave requirements, etc. (sarcasm)

    Last time I checked Japan HAS labor unions sometimes known as trade unions.

    In fact they have the JAW, Japan Automobile Workers Union, very much like the UAW

    So once again, the same issue.....Japan has a successful automotive industry even though they have AUTOMOTIVE LABOR UNIONS.
     
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  5. Schlitz-420

    Schlitz-420 New Member

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    Clue me in, what was false?:shrug:
     
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  6. Gorilla68

    Gorilla68 New Member

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    Listen guys - for the record - If you read my posts in this thread (yes all 3 of them) I bash management just as much as unions. I'm arguing that there has to be changes on both sides of the fence to produce REAL change. Union guys will pound their chests and say the union is right, management will say they are right...stalemate. open mindedness and innovative thinking is what's needed to turn it around. better product (aesthetically and structurally), lower price points and better marketing. unfortunately it's usually a "choose one of the above" scenario.

    As I recall, this thread was more about how to fix the problem and not so much about unions being good or evil.
     
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  7. bakorexer

    bakorexer New Member

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    :nice: couldn't have said that better myself!


     
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  8. SVTdriver

    SVTdriver Founding Member

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    And yet you didn't say anything about the post that disputed the previous post you made.
     
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  9. chefster

    chefster New Member

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    Hey ,I imagine the Chinese labor will go through the same fights our labor unions went through years ago,and things will start to equalize. My dad [he's almost 90]says godbless the UAW[because thats when things got better]and godbless Ford for giving me a job. I guess you had to be there to really understand how industrialization changed the pressures on the little guy and how the unions was a direct opposite and equal reaction to the big action. Every thing has its time and life cycle. Go Ford
     
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  10. bakorexer

    bakorexer New Member

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    You are correct, there are Japanese Unions, but in the U.S. they avoid our unions by having other companies compete and bid on the assembly because our unions have been micromanaged to the point of death. Secondly you are comparing Apples to Broccoli, very completely different countries, labor laws, and competitive work forces. Japan has a stronger work ethic then we in the states do; they work longer and harder shift’s for less money; Do your homework. American union workers have a lazy mentality for the most part, I have worked with many union workers and can only say 1% of the ones I met are hard workers, and the rest have that stupid sense of entitlement. No need to get butt hurt because you apparently are the only hard working American union worker out there, but look around at your counterparts and ask yourself is there anybody out there that would do this job better and for less. Talk about kicking a dead horse. The Union had their day and did a great job, but once you regulated everything possible, what else is there for them to do now? The only thing I can think of is micro manage and line their pockets with your dues.
     
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  11. bakorexer

    bakorexer New Member

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    #51
  12. Penguin

    Penguin Active Member

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    Maybe this will help Ford's comeback. /sarcasm

    Ford is suing companies for use of Mustang name

     
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  13. bakorexer

    bakorexer New Member

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    Yeah, no kidding.. I already signed that petition.
     
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  14. Rock36

    Rock36 Member

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    Yeah I know I am correct that there are unions in Japan. You are the one who said Japan had NO unions...meaning zero unions.

    Go ahead and change your argument and say that Japanese unions are different than American ones. It is much better than what you said before. However I still believe that the bottom line is that unions collectively bargain for better wages and benefits no matter what country you are in or language you speak. Sure there are differences, I never claimed they were EXACTLY the same. But unions are still an obstacle to any company that would rather pay the bare minimum necessary.

    Yes people have pointed to management too, but the focus is clearly shifted to the unions. Gorilla68 did say management was partially to blame, but his posts shifted towards unions, which I decided to comment on.

    Besides I'm not in a union anyway. I'm in the Army, and we are unable to lobby or collectively bargain for ourselves. I am not complaining, I'm just illustrating how I have no union affiliation period and no reason to be "Butthurt". BTW my avatar is a picture of some of my work in Iraq, that was fun. :flag:

    Schlitz-420: I was referring to when you said you are union, but yet do more than one job. The other guy complained that union workers don't do more than one job.


    Anyway my whole point is this. US companies could be successful in spite of the existence of unions. Yes they could benefit from changes in unions and/or management, but this thread has transformed more into a anti-union thread instead of talking about things American companies could do in terms of fresh ideas and products. I think Gorilla68 said some great things about advertisement, quality, perception, cool factor, etc, but then it all turned into this unions suck rant which to me is usless to talk about. The unions aren't going anywhere anytime soon or ever, but there are many other things American companies have the ability to change and develop.
     
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  15. bakorexer

    bakorexer New Member

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    First of all you misinterpreted what I was saying about Japanese unions, I was comparing U.S. domestic sales, which Japan does not have a union here to thwart their profits; only tariffs, and taxes. Japan is manufacturing there cars in the U.S. now to avoid these financial obstacles. Japanese unions have no bearing on our market, only there own in Japan. Sorry I didn't explain it well enough, but the article I attached covers every point and explains specifically what the issues that are stifling success for our domestic car manufactures, and majority of those issues is union caused. Enough said...
    Secondly I too served in the military and salute you for your hard works and efforts. Keep it up, you're all in our thoughts and prayers. HoooRahh!
     
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  16. bakorexer

    bakorexer New Member

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    First of all you misinterpreted what I was saying about Japanese unions, I was comparing U.S. domestic sales, which Japan does not have a union here to thwart their profits; only tariffs, and taxes. Japan is manufacturing there cars in the U.S. now to avoid these financial obstacles. Japanese unions have no bearing on our market, only there own in Japan. Sorry I didn't explain it well enough, but the article I attached covers every point and explains specifically what the issues that are stifling success for our domestic car manufactures, and majority of those issues is union caused. Enough said...
    Secondly I too served in the military and salute you for your hard works and efforts. Keep it up, you're all in our thoughts and prayers. HoooRahh!
     
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  17. bakorexer

    bakorexer New Member

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    sorry for the double post! slow computer.
     
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  18. Schlitz-420

    Schlitz-420 New Member

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    Right on, that illustrates the fact that perception is not always reality. I have to do whatever my boss tells me or I have a problem. Sure I can pull out my contract but do that too many times and they will get rid of you anyway. Besides there is a little clause in my job description: other duties as assigned. That means they can make me do just about anything they want for a given period of time before I can cry and insist they add it to my job description, which only makes it legal that I do it, it does not make me any more money. I just got off work @6pm and my out time was 4:30pm, but I needed to install some new HP switches and my boss preferred that I come in late and stay late, he did not give me an option, that is how he wanted it done. This is why I wigged on Anthony when he started bagging unions making it sound like we are all lazy idiots that can't accomplish anything and just sit around all the time, then we have contractors come and save the day. Most of the contractors that do things for us are not the most adept and usually have to return to fix mistakes they make. At the same time many are highly skilled professionals that do a wonderful job.

    While this thread has gone in a somewhat bad direction the original idea was what Ford could do to be more successful. I think that labor costs have to be looked at across the board in all areas of business in this country. I think we all also need to buy American whenever possible and do what we can to provide more American goods. Unfortunately we cannot start businesses as easy as we once did. Try getting a patent that sure is an expensive pain in the _ss. Unemployment insurance, Comp insurance, health insurance, malpractice insurance....these necessary evils (are they?) are straddling many a business. Even if you make a product of good value and can keep your labor costs in check, some competitor from Malaysia or elsewhere will outprice you. Look at those tacky magnetic ribbons people put on their cars; a company that made something else out of the same material came up with it after 9/11 and after a short period of time (6 months I think) they were seeing them from China and a variety of other countries, so they had to stop making them as it was no longer profitable. It always seems to comeback to labor in the end but there are ways around this. We need to pull out of the WTO and use tariffs and other measures when needed to protect our markets from dumping. Yeah steelworkers make a decent wage, but was it fair for Asian steel to be dumped on our market for less than it cost the company to make it in an attempt to defeat their competition and later raise prices? I think no. The current tax system also benefits a company when it moves labor and finance offshore, that is insane! I better shutup as this is a book now but I think we all need to shop at mom and pop businesses more, we need to examine how much our neighbor's ability to earn a living means versus our need to get a 21" Daewoo TV at Wal-Mart for $69. It’s funny, we all know anything cheap always has a catch, but when it comes to us saving money we seem to forget about that.

    BTW, thank you ever so much for your service Rock36, and to all other AD and Vets on this forum. I am very proud of you guys and wish there was more we could for you while you are "over there". I also think we should make a chain of Stangs and run over the holy rollers protesting soldiers funerals, they should be drawn and quartered!
     
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  19. Rock36

    Rock36 Member

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    Gotcha, I understand your point now. :nice:

    Thanks for all everyones support too. I wasn't trying to wave my service in anyones face, I just wanted to point out I wasn't defending unions because I was in a union. Thanks again for the support though! I'm positive there are plenty of other service members, past and present, on this site that appreciate the support too.
     
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  20. shooterm1

    shooterm1 New Member

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    From my prespective, the #1 thing that Ford needs to do is to trust their young designers right now .........

    Within that framework, they also need to look at cars that are already selling well in Europe and elsewhere and bring them over to the US Market FAST!!!

    They also need to reconstitute the SVT group!

    and last but not least,,, whip their Dealers into line (as someone else said above)
    and force them to be more of an asset to FoMoCo and less able to put their own interest in front of Ford's.

    each one of these points as their own strategies and targets for success.

    but the bottom line is that no one thing will accomplish Ford's resurrection alone.
     
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