How useful are these supporting-role engine components?

[SadbutTrue]

I’m building an, ideally, 400 hp 351 that will rev to 6000 rpm, designed for 99% street. Little to no actual racing, just spirited onramp sprints. AFR 185/Stealth/appropriate cam/yadda/etc. I want the engine to last a while. I also don’t want to waste money. I was planning on getting better than OE pushrods, lifters, bearings, etc… but there are several components, some of which I’m not sure what they do, that some use to help with this longevity. I’ve also heard most of them described as unnecessary, useless, or even counterproductive in some cases. So, could someone tell me if any of these components below would be worthless/damaging, unnecessary, or a very good idea with my setup?

1) Aftermarket, SFI approved harmonic balancer (I usually hear stockers are good to 6k… does that mean I’m golden or that I am pushing it?)
2) Windage tray (don’t know what this does)
3) Stud girdle
4) High volume water pump or water pumps with impellers (never heard anyone attest to these actually helping in keeping the engine cool)
5) High capacity oil pan (I would think this is unnecessary for my purposes)
6) High volume oil pump (heard that this can actually be harmful… which would be important because I believe I already have one)
7) High performance gaskets (I believe Fel-Pro has two lines, and I also think I heard someone say on here that the higher-end ones were actually worse…)

If these (or others that I don't know about... let me know, please! i want to do this right) a good idea, even if unnecessary, and won’t break the bank, I’ll probably just get it. But itd also be useful to know if they'd be completely worthless or if the parts could actually work against me. If they are, indeed worthile, if you could recommend a specific company/part # it’d be helpful. Also, if there are any compatibility issues with other engine parts… that’d be good to know too.

Don't hesitate to ask if you need more details on the engine setup or what I want to do with it, let me know. Thanks a lot!

 

[mrmustangman357]

going to 6000 rpm, the stock rotating assembly will be fine. I would have he stock rods shot peened and arp bolts used in them. check all your tolerances. for a sreet motor, the engine won't see 6000 rpm ALL that lot , so a stock balancer would also be fine IMO. I would put the cash into a good set of hypereutectic pistons and that would sum up the bottom end. oh yeah, a stock oil pump would work fine. you really need the premium stuff when you rev the motor over 6k, which you wont do i take it. I'd go with a good set of AFR 165cc heads, a roller hydraulic cam made for the combo, and buy the stuff the cam maker recommends. I'd use a performer rpm air gap intake manifold from edelbrock, along with a decent 750 mech secondary holley. you would easily do 400 hp, if not 440-450 depending on cam selection. my 351 was identical except trick flow heads, and laid down 440 hp and 480 lb ft of torque all over the powerband.:Track:

 

[SadbutTrue]

going to 6000 rpm, the stock rotating assembly will be fine. I would have he stock rods shot peened and arp bolts used in them. check all your tolerances. for a sreet motor, the engine won't see 6000 rpm ALL that lot , so a stock balancer would also be fine IMO. I would put the cash into a good set of hypereutectic pistons and that would sum up the bottom end. oh yeah, a stock oil pump would work fine. you really need the premium stuff when you rev the motor over 6k, which you wont do i take it. I'd go with a good set of AFR 165cc heads, a roller hydraulic cam made for the combo, and buy the stuff the cam maker recommends. I'd use a performer rpm air gap intake manifold from edelbrock, along with a decent 750 mech secondary holley. you would easily do 400 hp, if not 440-450 depending on cam selection. my 351 was identical except trick flow heads, and laid down 440 hp and 480 lb ft of torque all over the powerband.:Track:

As far as balancer goes, you seem to echo the sentiment i've heard in the past... stocks fine if its a street motor revving to 6k. I am having balancing issues with the engine as it is (though I have an old engine and I set my new t5 to 28 oz, there's a bad vibration once the car gets up past 3k... especially in 1st... thats another issue though).

I'm surprised your 351 laid down that much power... my poor t5 is gonna eat it in a week (well, hopefully not that fast, but i was planning on it breaking and shipping it off to gforce or astro). I was planning on getting DSS's budget forged pistons. The engine wasn't rebuilt that long ago, so the bores are probably fine, but it'll get a hone at least, and bored if needed. I was gonna sk the engine builder how much he'd charge for a roller conversion. If reasonable I'll definitely go for it. And yeah, i forgot to mention ARP bolts. Excuse the noob question, but what does 'shot peening' the rods do? :-x

Are windage trays (what does that do?!), stud girdles and high-flow water pumps worthwhile?

Anything else I'm missing?

 

[D.Hearne]

With your build and plans, skip it all except the high volume water pump. And you can buy this locally at your favorite parts house. Look for a "Police", "Taxi", or "HD cooling" pump. Same pump housings used, just with a larger impeller. At a fraction of the cost of the aftermarket HV pumps. I use Felpro's std gaskets. Steer clear of their "Print-O-Seal" gaskets. The "POS" initials are commonly misinterpreted as something else. With good reason too.

 

[bnickel]

why are ya bagging on the print-o-seals D? i've used them almost exclusively on all the motors i've built and never had a problem with any of them.

your original afr 185, stealth and matching cam combo sounds like a good one to me. you could probably get away with the 165's if you use a mild enough cam or go with the competition ported 165's, otherwise i'd stick with the 185's. i was plannning on using the comp ported 165's on my eventual long rod 351w but mostly because i was going more for overall efficiency/longevity/economy rather than just power, sounds like you're wanting power more than efficiency/economy. i ended scrapping the plans for the AFR's altogether though and have since decided to run a set of FRPP x-305 heads with 64cc chamber and pedestal mount rockers so i can use a set of 1.7 cobra roller rockers and keep the compression down to around 10:1 and be able to use my original 69 block and the KB hypereutectic pistons for the shorter 9.48" deck height block. this will be going in my 69 cougar eventually and i'll be relying on the proceeds from the sale of the 69 GT coupe after we take out the down payment for a house which will eat about half of that money so the budget will be pretty tight and the FRPP heads are about 600 bucks cheaper than the 165's.

 

[CraigMBA]

1) Aftermarket, SFI approved harmonic balancer - don't need
2) Windage tray - I'd use this, buy the Ford one
3) Stud girdle - don't need
4) High volume water pump or water pumps with impellers maybe
5) High capacity oil pan don't need
6) High volume oil pump don't need, hurts horsepower
7) High performance gaskets I don't have an opinon other than the intake gaskets are a lot different within the FP line so if port obstructions are a concern, you might want to ask AFR what they recomend

I think you might be suprised how much more than 400 wheel HP you make with the combo you're talking about.

 

[D.Hearne]

why are ya bagging on the print-o-seals D? i've used them almost exclusively on all the motors i've built and never had a problem with any of them..

I've had and seen others who had failures with them. The failure I had was with small block head gaskets. The others were FE intake gaskets. I find the std Felpro gaskets work better(expanded graphite small block head gaskets, the Permatorque blue head gaskets, etc.)

 

[69gmachine]

If you have a 40 year old harmonic balancer, it either needs to be tossed or rebuilt. The elastomer wears and allows the outer ring to move. I would get a new, better than stock replacement, but that's just me.

 

[Hack]

You should match the oil pump to the engine clearances and usage. If you are running stock clearances, run a stock oil pump. High volume and high pressure oil pumps just wear out the distributor gear more quickly and/or possibly pump the pan dry with no benefits in a nearly stock application.

I wouldn't get a girdle or large oil pan for your intended use, either.

If you have extra money I would consider a roller cam and roller rockers, though. Oil just doesn't have the additives that it used to, so IMO there is a good benefit to a roller cam. You can buy additives for the oil and many people are not having problems with their flat tappet cams, but I still think a roller cam is not a bad idea.

I agree with new harmonic balancer, but I wouldn't spring for an SFI approved one.

 

[D.Hearne]

Balancers ? I have a 40 year old on my 331. Still going strong after all these years. Have a freind with a 94 Mustang GT, he's already had to replace the stock balancer that slipped. Seen one other of about the same age group that slipped too. Seems to be pot luck with this deal.

 

[SadbutTrue]

Summit sells some pretty cheap SFI balancers. I'll probably just get it and not worry about it. What does a windage tray do (figured i'd try one more time before just googling it)? Thanks for the tip re: the P/I water pump Hearne... you always seem to know some obscure tips and tricks of the trade...

on that note, does anyone know what might be causing that vibration I mentioned (i think in this thread)? basically, especially in 1st gear, there is a bad vibration as the car gets above 3k. Its not nearly as noticable at speed, but its really bad pulling away from a stop in 1st. I took a lot of care to put the 28 oz balance on my fidanza flywheel, and my 351w is an early 70s one (72, i think), so that should be okay right? What else could cause it?

 

[SoCalCruising]

69Gmachine was trying to tell you tht it is likely that your (presumably) old balancer elastomer ring has slipped and is causing the vibration. That's a pretty good guess.

A windage tray keeps the oil in the pan away from the crank. Often, the crank counterweights rotate into the oil, causing some drag. Windage trays usually help at higher RPMs (>4000, maybe) and with shallow pans. If you run a 7-qt pan with 5 qts in it, the oil sits low enough to not be much of an issue. It's a definitely maybe for you, if you use a stock pan. "Maybe" meaning that any benefit will be marginal.

Pioneer makes a decent, low cost balancer.

The roller cam conversion isn't cheap. If you can buy Rotella, or other oil that still uses the old additives, then it will be quite a bit cheaper to stick with your flat tappet cam. At your hp number and use, a roller won't make much difference in performance.

 

[D.Hearne]

If it were an engine balance problem, it would do it in all gears at the same rpms. And to answer your other questions: Windage try keeps the crank from whipping up the oil in the pan. I've used these on FE motors (it's a simple install there, it just sandwiches between the oil pan and block. Never bothered with a small block. Main girdles stiffen the bottom of the block by tieing the main caps together. Shot peening the rods, relieves the surface stress imparted in polishing the rod beams. If you don't polish the rods, you can skip this operation.

 

[mrmustangman357]

the balance issue might be in the axle, driveshaft, or tires. at that speed, put the clutch in and put er in neutral, if the vibe goes away its definitely in the motor.

Rods fail when they develop stress risers on the surface of the rod. these local spots lead to cracks and eventual failure of the rod. shot-peening releases the stress in the rod so cracks do not form. ARP bolts are almost always a requisite for a performance build

 

[woodsnake]

The balancer on the front of the engine is one of those things most people ignore until it comes apart.
THese guys have a good line of products;

http://**********************/pro-products-powerforce-dampers-windsor-351-393-408-418-427-c39.html

As far as your engine build goes, I don't think you need to worry about "H" beam rods, stud girdles, and high volumn oil pumps. If you were buidling a Cleveland motor, then HV oil pumps are a MUST.

If you were planning on spending all your drive between 4-8, then yes, you would need all top end stuff. But if sounds like you are planning to build in the idle to 6000 RPM range, where all good street motors live. I'm pretty sure it is not possible to build an engine too well, but it sounds like you are on the right track.

 

[Hack]

snip . If you were buidling a Cleveland motor, then HV oil pumps are a MUST.
snip

I disagree. The same logic applies to a Cleveland as any other motor. If you are staying under 7K rpm, use a std. volume oil pump. If you are using stock clearances, use a std. volume pump.

 

[D.Hearne]

I disagree. The same logic applies to a Cleveland as any other motor. If you are staying under 7K rpm, use a std. volume oil pump. If you are using stock clearances, use a std. volume pump.

The Clevelands loose oil pressure in the right side lifter galley. The HV pump helps here. I wouldn't run a Cleveland without one either.

 

[Hack]

The Clevelands loose oil pressure in the right side lifter galley. The HV pump helps here. I wouldn't run a Cleveland without one either.

So all the Cleveland engines that Ford sold in the 70s lost pressure on the right side lifter bank? That would mean they didn't last very long. Yeah I believe that.

Sorry, but Cleveland oiling myths are a real pet peeve of mine.

 

[bnickel]

So all the Cleveland engines that Ford sold in the 70s lost pressure on the right side lifter bank? That would mean they didn't last very long. Yeah I believe that.

Sorry, but Cleveland oiling myths are a real pet peeve of mine.

just because you've never experienced them doesn't mean they aren't true. i know from experience that a lot of cleveland "myths" are in fact true and not myths. oiling system problems and notoriously thin cylinder walls due to core shift both as well as weak connecting rods too. you can call BS all you want but those in the "know" really do know

 

[CraigMBA]

So all the Cleveland engines that Ford sold in the 70s lost pressure on the right side lifter bank? That would mean they didn't last very long. Yeah I believe that.

Sorry, but Cleveland oiling myths are a real pet peeve of mine.

My mom had a 400M in a 74 Mercury Cougar that Ford rebuilt under warranty six times with this problem. My dad did it three times before he fixed the problem by adding another external oil line and installing oil feed restrictors.

A buddy of mine commented that the only thing those engines were good for was as anchors or for scrap.

So yeah, they are all myths. But only in your mind.