Mustangs in Germany?

[GusinCA]

My friend who lives in Germany told me he sees quite a few Mustangs there now.

A long time ago, seeing an American sports car was unheard of there.

Are they mostly V6's? What are the big differences, I wonder (besides yellow turn tail lights, I assume).

Any convertibles? If so how do they get around the mandatory roll bar law?

 

[walter]

Probably most of them are bought on post and sold to civvies or kept by expats. I dunno about lighting over there but I was intrigued when I saw the Top Gear review of the GT500. The rear taillights had reverse lights in the middle of each light. It reminded me a lot of the Bugatti EB110's taillights.

 

[GusinCA]

According to my buddy, they are for sale from the local Ford dealer.

I'll see if I can get some more info from him.

 

[LV51FER]

There are plenty of importers of the Mustang here in the UK and in other European countries. They all have to pass a single vehicle type approval test to bring them in line with European lighting regulations but as a single import, they oftendon't have to comply with every safety regulation as the FMVSS certification is taken to meet equivalent European specifications.

The lights on the GT500 were aftermarket units and are red stripe outer (light/brake) middle white (reversing light/orange indicator bulb) and inner red (high intensity fog light). Most people tend to put an orange bulb in the reversing light and hang an extra reverser underneath, along with a fog light because you then get to keep the "3 bars lit" appearance instead of a single bar.

As you can see here, mine has LEDs mounted on the stock lights and a fog light slung underneath:

 

[GusinCA]

Very interesting!
But it doesn't sound like they are for sale from the Ford dealers, right?

 

[LV51FER]

No, that's right. Ford won't offer a warranty and in the UK, LHD means it's not a practical proposition so the importers clean up. At $2 to the £, the Mustang GT is still a bargain even after adding 10% import duty and 17.5% tax and paying up to $2000 to convert the lighting.

To sell the Mustang officially, Ford would have to go through the expensive process of passing the Mustang through all the european crash tests for type approval.

Even if they did that, they have a quandary because the Mustang sells for much less in the US than the sporty Fords sell for in Europe. A Ford Focus ST, for example, in top spec, would be the equivalent of about $40000 so offering a Mustang at that price level might seriously affect their Focus sales. The only solution is to price the Mustang much higher at $60000-$80000. Then, of course, people would look at the price and import their own.

 

[GusinCA]

Why is that? Why are the same cars twice as expensive in the UK as in the US? Even a basic car like a Golf GTI costs twice as much, seems like either they make 2x as much money in the UK, or drive half the car, with twice as much for gas. I just don't see why it has to be such a hige disparity. Is it all taxes or something?

 

[shooterm1]

Why is that? Why are the same cars twice as expensive in the UK as in the US? Even a basic car like a Golf GTI costs twice as much, seems like either they make 2x as much money in the UK, or drive half the car, with twice as much for gas. I just don't see why it has to be such a hige disparity. Is it all taxes or something?

Its because there's no competition there .....

Dealer territories are massive and they are exclusive.

Worse still is the price fixing, with institutionalized collusion on pricing across all brands.

Its all stacked up against the consumer to keep the price of driving a new car very HIGH.

Just be glad that you live in the good ol' USA

 

[ruffy]

There are at least 5 major Mustang Clubs in Germany with cars ranging from the classic 1964 to the 2008 model and all the variations ie Boss, Bullitt etc. Until recently a German couldn't buy one from their local Ford dealer so they flew to the USA, bought the car and shipped it back. Once on German soil they didn't some minor mods so the car met german regulations. Also you can get an exception because it is made in USA, but that exception costs a few dollars. I put my '97 on the German system and all I had to do was add a rear fog light, and etch the chassis number under the hood into the frame. I got exceptions for everything else including the tail lights. Most people prefer the V6 because gas, insurance, and road tax is so expensive in Germany. Insurance and road tax is partially based on the HP of the engine and how many cylinders, but there are lots of V8's to be seen. I saw a new 2006 Mustang GT at a dealer in Mannheim about a year ago selling for 27000 Euros and change, which would be around $40,000.00 at current exchange rates and the car only had the standard features, no options. The reason anything coming from the US is expensive is tax. You want to drive a car made outside of Germany thats fine but, you gonna pay through your nose to do it. Buying, shipping, and converting any car from the USA is much cheaper and thats what most people do.

 

[SpartaPerformance]

Mustangs are for sale in Europe just as they are here same trim packages and all, in fact they are pretty popular...even British car magazine Top Gear rated the current car very well even made it's "Cool" wall on the border of the "Super Cool" section. Europeans are smart they like American made products.....cars appliances etc... not like us looking for Chinese made junk cause it's cheap.

 

[GusinCA]

It sounds like they are still pretty rare though, right?

A dream of mine has always been to take my new 08 GT convertible to Europe and tour for 3-4 months. Is this easy to do? Do you need special plates, or do you just drive it onto a ship in Los Angeles and pick it up in Rotterdam a few weeks later? I have a few close friends in Salzburg (I speak the language fluently) and they want to see the car in person someday (they're all motorheads, just like the rest of us).

 

[ruffy]

It sounds like they are still pretty rare though, right?

A dream of mine has always been to take my new 08 GT convertible to Europe and tour for 3-4 months. Is this easy to do? Do you need special plates, or do you just drive it onto a ship in Los Angeles and pick it up in Rotterdam a few weeks later? I have a few close friends in Salzburg (I speak the language fluently) and they want to see the car in person someday (they're all motorheads, just like the rest of us).

No, Mustangs are not rare in Germany, perhaps in winter, but not in summer. Sure you will see more BMW's, but if you hang out where the ponies run wild you will see lots of them.

It is very easy to drive in Germany. You can drive in Germany with your USA plates. All you need is to purchase what is called border insurance. It's about 70 euros for a month of coverage. Each country you visit while in europe you would have to buy insurance again. Check with your current insurance company they might can help you out. You will need an international drivers license, actually you really don't but it is a good idea to have it. Many of the driving laws in germany and elsewhere in Europe is different from the US. Would hate to see you get into an accident just because you didn't know the rules of the road. AAA should be able to help you with that. You will also need marine insurance just in case the boat sinks. Bremerhaven is another port you can ship to, many Americans use it.
BTW Salzberg is in Austria and is quite a drive from Rotterdam (actually I don't think you can ship to Rotterdam anymore, check it out) or Bremerhaven and you would also have to buy a autobahn sticker to drive on their highways. Since there is no actually border control between Germany and Austria, you could get away without Austrian insurance if you don't have an accident. Good Luck

 

[Steel]

Hi all
I'm italian and live in northern italy .
Every spring I make a 6 days holyday to germany in the stang covering about 2000 miles through italy , austria , germany and back - just to get to Leipzig at WGT concerts .
I met some of stangs , italian and german drivers , during my journeys .
In fact , maybe by chance , the most of them were V8 , not six bangers . In my opinion , if you buy a stang , get a V8 since you wont regret it .

Even if it is 2 years that I drive this car around , it's still a headturner .
No issues so far , and in my city is full of good workshops to keep her going perfectly .

Ciao

Gianluca

 

[GusinCA]

WOW!

That is some amazing information. Back in the day (the 80's and 90's) you hardly ever saw an American sports car in Europe.

Thanks again for the excellent information!

When I get to the point of actually doing this trip, I'll post again far in advance and maybe we can join in a European Mustang Meetup!

 

[LV51FER]

Why is that? Why are the same cars twice as expensive in the UK as in the US? Even a basic car like a Golf GTI costs twice as much, seems like either they make 2x as much money in the UK, or drive half the car, with twice as much for gas. I just don't see why it has to be such a hige disparity. Is it all taxes or something?

It's a variety of things. The 17.5% tax is only a small part of it. Historically, European manufacturers have never used big engines in anything but top of the line cars. So traditionally, you had small cars and small engines and big cars and big engines. Makes sense on smaller and narrower European roads.

As a result, most European engines are expected to be small and efficient to fit in the smaller cars. In recent years, safety regs have meant all cars have grown considerably but technology has meant that small engines have been developed to maintain performance but also fuel efficiency. Important when you pay over $6 a gallon.

So what you get in Europe as a fast car is a turbocharged direct injection petrol unit. A 2.0 can put out over 200hp and being smaller and lighter than a Mustang, handles the European roads better in most cases.

The other thing is that in Europe you get a hierarchy in the car model line-up. The little economy cars get the basic interiors and a top of the line Golf interior will be way better than a Cadillac in terms of build quality. Accordingly, Europeans don't really understand modern American cars because they think a 4.6 will automatically be a gas-guzzler and won't accept the cheap interior you get on a basic Mustang (they slag off the top end one so what chance have you got). I myself am happy to trade off the interior for the performance and uniqueness of a muscle car.

In days gone by, Ford used to sell the most mid-size sedans in Europe in the shape of Cortinas and Sierras. They were spacious and reasonably priced but suddenly the 3 series BMW caught and overtook all the big players and so it became clear that what the market was demanding was a small luxury saloon with impeccable build quality which Ford have been forced to pursue. That costs money and people now have far higher demands. The 350Z interior for Europe had to be upgraded from the cheaper American version. We never got the basic Monaro (your GTO), only the more expensive HSV. When they siold the Camaro her in the 90's, it had to have leather Trans Am seats and a whole raft of options as standard.

The Mustang therefore is incomprehensible to most people. It is big, fairly cramped and has a basic interior, even with the upgrades. The plastics are cheap and because it has a V8, that tends to get highlighted because of the import duties and the fact they can only compare it to expensive V8 cars.

Certainly in the UK, any car producing more than a set level of CO2 now also attracts a $600 a year road tax ( a little car costs as little as $70). Imports are currently exempt as there is no official CO2 figure to rely on but it's still nearly $400 a year. So they don't sell the Mustang officially, it has to be imported. It would doubtless be cheaper if Ford did sell it here officially but it would just cost them money as it would take sales away from cars like the Focus ST which is already cost-effective.

 

[GusinCA]

Makes sense.
Here the story is completely different.
The Mustang is the best seling sports car in the world by a margin of at least 2 to 1. The reason is it's popularity in the US.
Now, granted the 4.6 liter engine is inefficient by European/Japanese standards. Normally a high performance Euro/Japanese engine 2/3 that size produces similar power with better mileage.
But, that same engine also operated under much higher stress and pressure, and since gasoline is "only" $3 per gallon here, the big, lazy, torquey V8 is a popular choice. It doesn't have to work as hard to do what it needs to. The demands are simply different.
Also, we aren't taxed based on displacement, power, or CO2 emissions, so those are less important to consumers as buying criteria.
Size is also an issue.
The Mustang is a big car. People don't believe it when they see that it's just as long as a Ford Explorer and very heavy. It's just not a light wieght little sports car. Compared to the average Euro-Japanese car, it's a huge car. But, in this land of SUV's and larger cars (and not such great drivers) I'm more comfotable in a car with some significant mass. I know mass isn't the only decider in an accident, but it makes a difference in deceleration values. The car the wieghs 1/2 as much will be accelerated backwards in a perfect crash.
The interior is "cheap" compared to similar cars overseas, but it has gotten so much better than it was in the previous model. My fully optioned interior is more than adequate for my puposes. But let's not forget one of the real big pieces of the puzzle, price.
For the money (in this country anyway) there is nothing that matches the Mustang's performance and looks for the money. If this car were sold in Europe, through Ford dealers, at American prices, watch the doors crash down. People there want something different, something cool. Many of the cars on European roads look exactly the same, and this car stands out (as will the Camaro and Challenger - wow!).
My father, who was born in Austria, moved to America, but then brought his Oldsmobile back to Europe to tour for a few months, loved every minute of it.
I'd love to do the same someday, but I'll bring plenty of Euros for gas...

 

[LV51FER]

I'm not so sure the doors would crash down. In the 90's GM sold the LHD only Camaro and C5 Corvette here in the UK. They were very cheap compared to the competition, even fully specced but they bombed. The issue was the LHD and the size of the Camaro in a country where supermarket parking spaces are designed for small cars.

The same would apply to the Mustang in the UK. Lots of dreamers but not so many willing to buy. That's obvious because they are already relatively cheap even as an import - around the same price as a low-end BMW, Mazda RX8 and $10k cheaper than an optioned 350Z. Still most people rely on the myth of gas-guzzling (it's not bad actually and at least as good as most performance cars like the RX8 and Subarus) and they're just afraid of them.

They have introduced the Corvette C6 back into the UK and Europe and it chugs along but not even the Z06 has set sales alight. This is despite the C6 being vastly cheaper tan the 911 which continues to set new sales records. I guess when you're lookuingt o buy a V8 and can afford a Corvettte, you can also afford more expensive stuff. Cadillac are also chugging along with no real incentive to ditch the BMW/Merc hierarchy until they improve the interiors.

There is also the question of marketing. The Vauxhall VX8R is sold here as RHD as it comes from Australia but it is marketed as a cut-price M5 at the equivalent of $70000. I'm sure they could sell it for less but why should they when it costs so much less than the competition anyway. It still doesn't sell in any great numbers and the reason is that people here have been conditioned to consider large cars as anti-social or unnecessary luxuries.

In most cases, a family will have just one new car and inevitably it is a practical car like a mid-range hatchback that's cheap to run and service or, to impress the neighbours, a small BMW with the badges taken off....or not, depending on the person. the other popular car is the small 4x4.

About ten years ago, there was a furore over the fixed high prices of cars in the UK and as a result, prices dropped but sadly, the only result I've seen arising from that is increasingly poor and cheap interiors that aren't a patch on the older cars - so they're cheaper in price and cheaper in substance and you still get what you pay for.

The good thing is that you will never pay more than list price for a car, often less and if you pay list, you get stuff thrown in to sweeten the deal. The garages are all franchises controlled by the manufacturer so there's no gouging, just a waiting list for new and hot models although these don't last long as other manufacturers bring out new and improved models to out-do each other.

Thse strange thing about the Mustang is it is a very high profile car here and many would like one but would never buy one. In a sense, I think the retro-styling works against it in Europe because it's harking back to an era we never had so it's a bit "out of context" so as part of a European model ranmge, it would look a bit odd. The Vauxhall VX8R looks pretty much like other Vauxhall fodder so is far more logical. It would make more sense to change the front and rear body panels on the Mustang to make it look like a Ford Capri (our "Mustang" from 1969 to 1986) and launch it in Europe as a replacement retro-styled Ford Capri but it's probably still too big to be a sales success.

Still plenty of imported tangs here though but not so many that you see them very often and enough to remain exclusive and look down on BMWs.

 

[GusinCA]

Yes, you're probably right about the UK, that's a tough nut to crack.
The LHD and the large dimensions are a hindrance there.
But places like mainland Europe would be perfect for it. It is certainly no larger than the BMW 5 series, and uses less fuel than some other high performance cars costing twice as much (if it were sold at US prices).
The other main difference between the older Vette and Camaro of course is the quality. Most people will never get over the reliability and quality issues a decade or two ago, but the new Mustang is a totally different animal and shouldn't even be compared.

 

[ruffy]

WOW!

When I get to the point of actually doing this trip, I'll post again far in advance and maybe we can join in a European Mustang Meetup!

Send me a PM, I might be able to meet up with you. I usually do 2 or 3 car shows in Germany. Also check out http://www.mightymustangs.net a mustang club in Germany which is mostly made up of American soldiers and airmen. They are a great group of people that are always willing to help.

 

[Oxford]

It sounds like they are still pretty rare though, right?

A dream of mine has always been to take my new 08 GT convertible to Europe and tour for 3-4 months. Is this easy to do? Do you need special plates, or do you just drive it onto a ship in Los Angeles and pick it up in Rotterdam a few weeks later? I have a few close friends in Salzburg (I speak the language fluently) and they want to see the car in person someday (they're all motorheads, just like the rest of us).

hi, thats interesting, i guess almost every european Mustang owner dreams of cruising the USA for 3 to 4 month! I was lucky and had the brand new convertible in 2005 to drive along the westcoast for two weeks. Thats were the Virus got me, i guess.
Schoenen Gruss aus Deutschland