Possible CCRM problem.

Discussion in 'SN95 V6 Mustang Tech' started by ohsnapimadude, Aug 15, 2009.


  1. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    Alright i'm not the most advanced in car technicalities. As i'm only 19 and no time to study on this but i figured i'd ask some experts. (Before i ask yes i've been searching on google and forums for awhile now on this before i posted) I have a A/C problem, What feels to be kind of a lean problem, and now overheating (Possible to running lean) Engine sounds lean now too! I'm afraid to drive my car again too. I'm willing to buy a new CCRM if it could solve my problem. Everything happen in that order.

    1. A/C started to stop working. (Works on full blast and through Fog vents only)
    2. Rad cooling fan only kicks on every so often and not enough to help cool down engine.
    3. Engine running lean and getting VERY hot because of it. The very air in the engine bay is almost enough to hurt your hand!

    75k miles. 3.8L Automatic.

    Also my CCRM isn't showing any numbers on it? Do i have to take it out to find the numbers? Also do i have to disconnect the battery to do so? I believe there are pins that are always hot correct?

    Also on top of all that. I keep my car maintained and should be tuned up and it is getting horrible gas mileage. I have to run 93 Octane just to keep her running good and get 180 to a tank while i've heard people getting way more. My car feels more sluggish then ever. If i put in 87 Oct it drives even more sluggish. Oil is Synth 10w-30 and not that old. Could the CCRM cause all of that from the relays?

    Please help! ;_;

    Are the numbers on the CCRM per year or every single car have a different set of numbers?

    ~Vince
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  2. MustangLX-5.0

    MustangLX-5.0 Founding Member

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    First, your A/C stopped working because the PCM is disengaging the compressor due to overheating. It does this to avoid any more strain on the engine which would in turn cause more overheating. This does not sound like a CCRM issue. My guess is the CCRM is working fine. The overly lean problem and very hot engine is most likely being caused by one of the catalytic converters getting clogged up and creating too much back pressure. This in turn would cause an excessive lean condition and also would bog down the engine. Overheating will cause the engine to run very lousy as the combustion chambers get way too hot to burn fuel efficiently. Check your converters when the engine is running...matter of fact, find a real dark area outside at night and run the engine. When it starts feeling way too hot under the hood, look under the car and see if any of the converters are starting to glow red.

    Just as a rule out...check your coolant level. make sure the resevoir is at the proper fill line. There is also the possibility that the thermostat is not opening causing your overheating problems. The fan will only turn on if the coolant sensor detects the temp getting hot enough. Ifthere is an air bubble trapped near the coolant sensor, it may read incorrectly and not always engage the fan when it should. Have you changed your coolant lately? What does the temp gauge read?
    #2
  3. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    Well the thing is everything seems to be pointing towards the CCRM in my opinion because of everything i've read.

    First the A/C only going through the fog vents i read can be caused by the CCRM. The A/C Works fine otherwise. It works on full and puts out cold air! Also the engine isn't hot until a bit of running. It doesn't run lean right away.

    Also the CCRM apparently controls the Fuel Pump Relay which in failure could cause the engine to run lean correct?

    The temp gauge only yesturday started reading really hot. Not redline but near A and L in "Normal". Normally is stays steady in the center. Miles is at 75k so i don't think i need a flush yet but i may need to add more coolant if it's being used up. I dont think i need a flush just yet.

    I was hoping its not the Thermostat but when i had a Dodge shadow i worked on with a failed thermostat the fan didn't turn on at all unless the switch inside was turned on to vent. In my mustang it IS turning on just not enough to keep it cooled down. So it "could" be the thermostat failing but i dont know since the thermostat would control my A/C problem as which points to the CCRM. I could try the thermostat first if it's not too expensive and mostly accessible to replace. Never changed it on my mustang yet. Willing to give it a shot if you really think that's it.
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  4. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    Update: Changed Thermostat and did not only do nothing but made the problem worse. The thermostat is opening fine but the gasket isn't holding a seal worth of ****. After it starts getting hot it starts spilling out a little at the bottom of the gasket.

    Not only that but the rad won't pump now and now the car is overheating within 2 mins.

    I should've not touched the thermostat. It's got to be something else electrical related.

    Now not only do i have to fix this thermostat leak now i have to fix that and why the rad won't turn on so the car actually GETS coolant.

    Someone PLEASE help!! My blood pressure is sky rocketing i haven't gotten a single break for weeks on end and my bloody 3 year anniversary is this wednesday, I use my car for work and i still have no car....-_-;;
    #4
  5. MustangLX-5.0

    MustangLX-5.0 Founding Member

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    Ok, sorry I did not get to this post sooner.

    The t-stat housing can be a pain to seal sometimes if there is corrosion on either the housing or the intake manifold where it seats. Pit marks can form from corrosion and prevent the gasket/o-ring from keeping a good seal. I had this problem for awhile. I lightly sanded the area on the intake manifold to clean off any corrosion. In some cases I had to sand a little harder because of heavy chalky buildup. I also wanted the surface smooth and clean. Did this on the t-stat housing but not a whole lot could be done because the pitting was pretty bad inside. I had to run blut rtv sillicone all around the mating surfaces and then bolt it up. After bolting it up, I waited about 2 hours before I refilled with coolant , bled out the air through the bleeder bolt then ran engine and checked for leaks. All was good. If the pitting is too severe on the t-stat housing..like it was the very last time I had to remove it, I had to replace it with a new housing.

    Ok, now dont go blowin your own gasket trying to fix your car. I know this ****'s a damn pain in the ass! First, you WILL have to remove the t-stat housing again, and this time make sure its cleaned off, then apply blue rtv all the way around on the mating surfaces. Make sure you installed the t-stat in the correct direction (it says which side faces toward engine) then rebolt the housing back to the intake. Make sure to let it sit at least 2 hours before you go dumping coolant in, so it can have time to set and dry. After adding coolant, you will need to bleed the air out of the system. This may be why it is now getting hot in a couple of minutes. Just above and behind the thermostat housing is a short metal tube with a white cap on top and a sensor on the side. Remove the bolt on top and allow air to escape. Squeeze radiator hoses a couple times to force air bubbles up. Add coolant to this point, wait for air bubbles. Keep doing this till no more air bubbles come up and till you can no longer add coolant without overflowing it. Put the bleeder bolt back in and tighten it. Now run the engine for a minute (no more) then shut it off. Once again remove bleeder bolt and try and get more air out and top off with coolant if neccessary. It is a good idea to remove the radiator cap while the bleeder bolt is out. Doing this allows the air to easily escape, and you can also keep a tab on the radiator fill level. After repeating, bolt it back up and run engine for a minute.

    Try this as a way to rule out the CCRM. Run the engine. On top of the engine just above and behind the coil pack, there is yet another metal tube with a sensor attached to the very top. Unplug this while the engine is running. A few seconds after unplugging it, the cooling fan should turn on. If the fan turns on after unplugging , your CCRM is NOT at fault. If it does not turn on...then Its safe to assume the fan relay inside the CCRM isn't functioning properly. Note - Make sure you dont get the 2 sensors confused. The one on the left with at least 2 wires and mounted on the top is your Engine Coolant Temperature sensor. The tube on the right with the bleeder bolt on the very top and a (one wire) sensor on the side ..this sensor is your coolant temp sender, that is, the signal to the temp gauge. Make sure you unplug the 2 wire sensor on the left to test the fan...NOT the gauge sender.

    You say your AC works but only blows out the defroster ducts? If you turn the switch to Max or Normal A/C, does air blow out the vents? If air blows out the vents, is it cold and does all 4 fan speeds work? If air never switches away from the defrost ducts, a vaccum line running along the very top of the firewall in the engine compartment is to blame , most likely disconnected. If the interior fan only blows on high speed but not any of the other 3 speeds, then the blower motor resistor under the pass side dash is to blame.

    With the engine running, turn the heater on to full hot. After the engine has been running, does it blow out HOT air? Try doing this after a few minutes of engine run time to see if the temp drops. If the air from the heater feels cold at first then gets hot as you increase idle speed, air pockets could be in the heater core.

    Reply when you get this done. I'll try and help as much as I can.
    #5
  6. MustangLX-5.0

    MustangLX-5.0 Founding Member

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    What year mustang, i forgot to ask?

    And, just curious but how do you know for sure it is running lean? Do you get a check engine light? Have you put a code scanner on it? Might be a good idea to do so if you havn't already. If you have to, get a ride from someone to Advanced Auto Parts and "borrow" a scanner. They will charge you a deposit fee, but you will get the $$ back once you return it.
    #6
  7. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    ok dear god im glad you responded. Im in the process of removing my water pump to check that gasket i was so mad. I have the pulley off, the fan pulled, the rad and resv. drained, and got to the ignition coil brace. I can simply stop here and put it back on then put my belt back on.


    I'll tell you exactly what i did which made me think this was to blame. First off you have to put stuff on the gaskets to seal them? I was never ever told this so i dont know. (Noob moment???) The contact surfaces are all scraped and clean of all old gasket residue. The thermostat is seated correctly. It started to leak after i thought i fixed the problem for the 5th time. Is there a sealer i can get to try this before i go replacing my water pump and water pump gasket? Im going out of my mind paranoid as i gotta finish this by tomorrow afternoon! God life hates me right now i just want to make my girl happy on our 3 year and do something nice for her for a change and my car blows up in my face.

    Ill worry about the CCRM later as the first issue i gotta fix is the thermostat, and coolant leak. (note this wasn't like this until i changed the thermostat!!)

    Also my A/C works on 4 only. Blows cold and through the defrost.

    1, 2, and 3 do NOT work but the A/C still condenses.

    Never found a blown fuse....First thing i checked! ;_;

    My Vaccum lines look old but not enough to leak? Could my EGR crap out and cause that? Is there a way i can delete it just to test? I tried cleaning out my EGR with electronic cleaner because it was somewhat gunked up. Is there a preferred method to clean it? I might be the cause of that.

    Dont have a scanner yet sorry. Dont know current codes.

    No Check engine light.

    Lean is a theory since i know how engines sound when they are running and how it feels. Used to do engine tuning for nitro cars and that was a key element to prime running was balancing lean and rich on the carb.

    Save me before i fully dissemble my engine ;_;

    Thank you SOOOOOOO much for responding. Im forever grateful.
    #7
  8. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    Well i feel noobish. The blue RTV explains why the previous gasket was stuck on so good and was BLUE. -_-;;; god this whole day probably could've been avoided due to my noobish nature. Well hope to god i didn't blow anything up! pray i can finish this tonight. I'll run it like you said to do and let it sit overnight. Then continue work tomorrow morning and hope i can use the car for the day.

    Finished reinstalling all the parts i removed, now i just gotta let it sit for 2 hours since i finished the radiator hose manifold sealing with blue RTV. I'll be back out at 11 to dump in some coolant.

    Did i mention i love you? In the most non-gay way ever!
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  9. MustangLX-5.0

    MustangLX-5.0 Founding Member

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    Wait..your water pump gasket is leaking? I thought your t-stat housing was after you had put it back together? just checking. And no, you don't always need to use RTV sealant. I just reccomended that for the t-stat housing as they are prone to leaking easily. The o-rings dont always seat well and all it takes is te slightest surface irregularity and bam..it starts leaking. Anything that is on the engine and under some kind of pressure from fluids, I use RTV sealant. Only thing you cant use that on are head gaskets. But thats a different story..

    If your pump is leaking, putting something in the coolant to try and seal it is NOT a good idea. Once you do that, you risk clogging your radiator up .or worse, your heater core. If its not leaking bad, then I wouldnt worry about it right away, if you dont have too far to drive. If you are replacing your pump, use blue RTV sillicone sealant on both sides of the gasket surface. It has a metal gasket. I did my pump in 01. Put a small amount all the way around on the pump mating surface, then put the metal gasket on top of that and align the bolt holes. Next put a small amount of rtv on the top side of the metal gasket. Again, clean gasket mating area on timing chain cover. Before you put it together, its a REALLY good idea to apply anti-seize compound to the far right bolt that has the nut on it. This is a fairly long bolt that reaches well into the engine block. You use the anti seize compound on the threads (just a little) to prevent this bolt from ever getting rusted into the hole and snapping. Torque all the bolts to spec. A hhaynes manual will have the spec torque listings. Oo iI can give them to you. You should have a torque wrench for this job (guess torquing is not a good idea for a water pump seal).

    Go ahead and check your oil. Check the dipstick and look for any milky white stuff or a lot of bubbles. Just to make sure your HG is not leaking. It seems to be heating up too fast. is your radiator cap overflowing into the resevoir easily? I don't think a lean condition would cause this bad of overheating. Get the coolant leak fixed and bleed the air out like I mentioned earlier. It doesn't take long.

    The blower only working on high speed and only coming out the defroster ducts..sounds like both a completely disconnected vaccum line and a bad blower motor resistor. There is one specific vac line that controls the duct positions. This is a very skinny black plastic line trailing along the top of the firewall. Look on the vaccum splitter next to the brake booster, where about 4 vaccum lines plug in. The vac line for the duct control is plugged in here. It is labeled as "AC". find it and follow it as far as you can go. Its either broke someplace or disconnected. The blower resister is mounted inside the duct blower motor under passenger side dash. Get on the floor and look up just behind the glove compartment. Look on the front side of the blower motor housing, you'll see a wire harness plugged in, and a couple screws holding on a plate. That is the blower motor resistor. There is a thermistor attached to this as well. Usually corrosion will cause it to fail, and thus, only high speed works because high speed doesn't use a resistor to slow it down.



    What year was this again? I dont recall if you said.
    #9
  10. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    I was over assuming and saying the water pump was leaking because i "thought" i fixed the leak from the Radiator hose manifold but apparently i didn't. It sprayed from high pressure after the thermostat opened. I'll check my oil again but i dont believe i blew a gasket. Mind you this JUST happened and my car was just fine. I caused this. The reason why i'm trying to fix this was because it was getting too hot for my liking while driving. Now it's in non-driveable condition. When testing i made sure not to let it red line so i shouldn't have caused any damage either. I just need to make sure i do this right so i can rule out some problems.

    The A/C sounds like i can definitely fix that. I'll search all my vaccum lines besides my EGR line. I think i know which one your talking about. And the resistor i can most likely find.

    I have a good amount of tools(including swivel sockets which are awesome in this engine bay i can tell!) and have a torque wrench as well if i do ever need to work on the water pump. I was close to taking it off but i didn't. I can test this tomorrow after i fill the radiator and engine full of coolant. I'm going to take my time and make sure no air is in the system. That should fix this problem. It's always good to flush the coolant anyway. It trickled out with no problems and very clean. I think my thermostat was to blame for the previous heat problems.

    The car's year is 1995. OBDII and i found my CCRM number. F4ZF-12B581-CA
    I believe the last digits are CA. Was kinda smudged but is definitely a CA or OA. "Just in case i need to replace it."

    Thank you so much for replying i appreciate it so much. Your helping me cool down and giving me hope that i can fix this.
    #10
  11. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    Problem solved! Complete coolant flush, refilling the rad and purging the air out. It's up to level both in the rad and reservoir. Gasket's holding perfect since i grabbed the Blue RTV. Thanks for telling me about that i had NO idea what that blue stuff was called!

    Temp is running in the middle of the gauge (Normal) As soon as it hits past halfway the rad fan kicks in and cools it back down -phew- CCRM ruled out.

    I fixed the Vacuum leak!! A/C works out the vents again!!!!! It's so freakin hot out as soon as it kicked in i just MELTED in my seat in relief. The hose i was testing broke. I replaced it with a high flow hose and BAM worked INSTANTLY!

    I honestly couldn't care if i don't fix the resistors and i fixed my car BEFORE 12pm!! I met my goal and i'm off to enjoy my day with my girl for our 3 year anniversary. Let's hope nothing goes wrong!!!

    I owe you one Mustanglx-5.0!!!! You really helped me a lot from discombobulating my engine and making my day a living hell ;_; i dont need anymore stress. Thank you so much for the assistance. My determination and your advice paid off and one more mustang remains alive.
    #11
  12. MustangLX-5.0

    MustangLX-5.0 Founding Member

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    Glad you got everything fixed and that your day was not trashed by car trouble. Patience is the key here. If you dont got it, then your gonna lose your cool and it will take forever to get any work done.

    Glad I could help. Never a problem :banana:
    #12
  13. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    Drove a good amount today so far and engine running cool. Got almost hot but that's because it was 90+ out earlier. It's expected. Had a perfectly fine drive home and engine running good.

    BUT.....My odometer stopped at 75,559 and my trip meter stopped working too? What the bloody hell i REALLY need those as i change my own oil religiously and im still trying to fix my gas mileage problem. Do you know what could cause that to stop? PLUS my Check Engine light came on (GO ****ING FIGURE!?) After i fix MAJOR problems in my car....(I had problems in the past with emissions, now this cooling issue and have had NO check engine light. Now all of a sudden i do AND my odometer doesnt work.....

    Otherwise cars running good along with A/C.

    Advice??
    #13
  14. MustangLX-5.0

    MustangLX-5.0 Founding Member

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    CE light? Only way to read that is with an obd II code scanner. Just "borrow" one from the parts store. or have them come out and plug it in so you can fetch the code. While your at it, pop the hood and look around. Perhaps in all the confusion you forgot to plug a sensor wire back in. Alsso check your vac hoses, even the two plastic hoses for the EGR. One vac leak on a hose and it could trigger a light.

    As for the odometer, does the speedo still work? If so, well the odo is screwed for now. Mine did the same thing at 100,017 miles. Its a common issue on stangs. A plastic gear that spins the odo numbers has a broken tooth and no longer catches the main odo drive gear. It can break at any time...Only fix is to get another gauge cluster from a junk mustang. The mileage will be off and will also be classified as exempt on insurance and title. No big deal. I got another cluster from a GT and put it in mine. Swapped the PCB on back and plugged everything in. I wanted it for the 150 speedo ..and for the odo. Of course..the odo was broke on that one also.....at 160K miles. I heard you can now order that plastic gear online someplace. I'm not sure right off the bat, just google it.
    #14
  15. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    I'll check my Vac hoses since that was the last thing i was playing with.

    Everything on the Gauge cluster works except my Trip/odometer.

    I found this site and i'll just order the gears for it.
    Odometer Gears | 72 Croatan Road | Newport News, VA 23606 | 757.593.3478

    I drove about 75 miles with the broken gauge so i have an idea where it should be. I'll be recording everything down for a good rough estimate.

    Otherwise driving on the parkway last night was perfectly fine. Did 80+ and engine temp was below half all night. She's running pretty good.

    Also i don't know how much the previous owner put into this car but it seems like it's not completely "stock". It seems too fast for what people are saying sixxers are slow. I can haul some serious ass in my car. I know i won't beat everyone on the road but it's definitely faster then a normal OLD 3.8L not the newer 190HP split port. Also what do the stock rear gears come as? I have 2.73's. I'm planning on getting 3.73's. Is there anything lower then 2.73 that mustang comes with? It just feels spunkier then people claim old 3.8's to be.
    #15
  16. MustangLX-5.0

    MustangLX-5.0 Founding Member

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    I think 3.18's but I could be off. You can look at the number on the metal tag attached to the differential, look the number up online and you'll find out what gear set came witht that specific rear end. Allthough, if the prev owner changed gear sets, then this would be incorrect. There is a test you can perform to find out what gears are currently installed. It's 95% accuracy pretty much. First, block the front wheels cocmpletely then place the transmission in neutral. Jack the rear end till the wheels aren't touching the ground. Probably best to be safe and place it on jack stands (dont wanna risk the jack coming down on you). Clean a spot on the driveshaft closest to the edge of the diff. Use (preferably) white paint or marker and put a small straight dash lengthwise on the driveshaft. Do the same on the differential. Make sure both dashes line up. Now rotate one of your wheels one complete revolution ONLY. Take your finger and set it on the very top of the wheel and start rotating it, stop when your finger gets back to where it started. While rotating the wheel, observe the dash on the driveshaft carefully. Note exactly how many times the driveshaft makes a complete revolution per one complete wheel revolution (measure even an eighth of a turn). So for example, if the drive shaft rotates about 2 3/4 turns per single wheel revolution, then your current gearset is around 2.73. Easy
    #16
  17. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    So my car officially hates me. It's my Cam Position Sensor that was shot ok? SO now i replaced it with a new one. 30 mins later boom CEL is back on.
    So thus is it the freakin synchronizer?

    Gas mileage and loss of power is coming from the problem.

    I dont have the best luck in the world do i? lol...
    #17
  18. MustangLX-5.0

    MustangLX-5.0 Founding Member

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    Man, sorry about the problems. I know how that is..cause I've been in boatloads of them :p

    Whenever one replaces a Cam Syncho sensor, the new sensor must be re-calibrated with a special tool. Hey, I was a minor Ford tech..and even I did not have this tool. Hard to get. Just take it to the nearest Ford/Lincoln/Mercury dealer and have them write up service for cam sensor calibration. It'll cost you a little, but thats about the only way your going to get that car running straight again.

    Oh, until you get the new sensor re-calibrated, just unplug the sensor wiring, I guarentee you it will run better with it unplugged. There will just be a slight delay in the throttle response. No big deal.
    #18
  19. ohsnapimadude

    ohsnapimadude New Member

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    That's what i figured......****. Thanks for all the help. I'll have to arrange for it to be done. I'll get a quote at a local shop.

    I really do appreciate the input.
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