Stock ford 24# MAFs

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by ddonaca351, Sep 19, 2009.


  1. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    Didn't the late model n/a cobras run 24# injectors... (like late 90's)

    Did they have the same voltage range as the earlier 19# meters. 0-5 basically

    Yeah I know I can change the voltage range in the twECer, but I'm trying to think of ways to troubleshoot my idle issue and eliminate variables...

    ( yes they run a different connector on the maf, but a jumper is easy to make... )
  2. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    The output range on the Cobra MAF (F1SF) is the same as most all Ford MAF sensors... Including the stock Fox 5.0HO MAF (F1ZF).


    You mentioned before that you have a C&L meter.
    What part number is the sensor in the C&L? The p/n should start with one of the 2 above numbers... if it came from a 93 Cobra or 5.0HO engine.


    Sponsored Ad

  3. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    No, I'm not asking about a 93 cobra sensor.

    I mean like a late 90s n/a cobra. (quad cam 4.6)

    They came with 24's, right?

    But wern't they like 80mm or thereabouts... same as lightning but with different cal.

    Still same voltage range?
    :shrug:
  4. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    Not sure where you're trying to go with this then???

    Yes,
    They all work on a 0-5v range, but the actual values within that range won't match up...

    But to use any of the MAF meters you have mentioned on YOUR car, you would need to know what the MAF Transfer is..... Have you found the Transfer as well as the physical MAF?

    Pulling a sensor from its original housing, and placing it in another housing will void out the MAF Transfer for it though....

    Again... I'm not really sure what you are thinking of doing here???
  5. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    (sigh)

    ...you don't need to know "where I am going with this", all that is required of you is to answer the question.
    :nice: ;)

    But since you asked...

    Ok I run a 73mm CnL, not exactly known as the worlds most accurate meter :rolleyes: I mean they use a diff tube dia to *kinda aproximate* the right reading to the cpu for a given airflow... (and it pegs on the datalogs at redline anyhow )

    A factory meter (or a pro-m for that matter) would have a more accurate cal, and there-by better resolution at low air levels (idle - off idle).

    So I can get a stock late modle n/a cobra maf, then it's just a mater of inputing the maf transfer and using a jumper on the harnes.

    viola: 80mm maf cal'd for 24's with more accurate / better resolution and higher maximum air flow.

    Clear as mud now?
    :rlaugh: :flag:
  6. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    I was kinda worried you might try something like that.
    I can assure you it won't work the way you're thinking.


    The sensor and housing are a matched set.
    It isn't the 'sensor' that is calibrated for 24's, it is the Housing/Sensor/ECU that are calibrated for 24's.
    If any one of those 3 things changes, then the 'calibration' is wrong.



    If you try to run the mis-matched MAF sensor/housing setup you described above, you would have to create a MAF Transfer from scratch.
    Not impossible, but it would be much easier to get a better MAF.


    What part sensor part numbers do you currently own for the C&L setup you have?
    What size/color sample tubes do you have?
    Once I know what parts you already have in your possession, then it will be easier to find the best solution for you.
    That 73mm C&L shouldn't be pegging out a 306 though.... My 408w didn't peg my 73mm C&L...




    That brings up another question though...
    Are you changing your injector slopes when you load the MAF Transfer?

    Would you be willing to post the majority of the changes you have made?
    Or email me your tune? (I probably won't have time to look at it until this weekend though)

    jason
  7. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    (sigh)

    Yes, I know how injection works, that was covered when I was graduating PIT, getting an ASE cert in f.i. & emissions cont and working as a factory line tech... :nice: :rolleyes:

    I have no intention of mixing and matching a sensor with a diff housing... and never implied that I did, where exactly did you get that??? :shrug: :nono:

    I intend to (as stated above) put a *hopefully 80mm* late modle MAF : i.e. a complete unit... from a whatever, that came with 24#ers in place of my CnL.

    I was asking (and still am) what larger diamater, late model, factory ford mafs, came on cars equipped with 24#s

    I was hoping that perhaps a late modle n/a cobra or lightning, might have come with like an 80mm maf and 24# injectors from the factory...

    The best solution for me would be to please answer the question...
    :rolleyes: :nonono:
  8. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    ...crickets crirping...

    :shrug:
  9. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    I hope you understand that I am doing my best to answer the INTENT of your questions.
    Also, please understand that I have been on this board for a while, answering some pretty silly questions... and helping guys to not make silly mistakes.... EVEN WHEN THEY DO KNOW BETTER.
    If you are insulted by anything I have written, then I apologize. That was never my intent.

    To answer your question, regardless of intent....
    The 93 Cobra came with 24's.
    It's only 70mm though...


    Now to get into intent...
    It doesn't matter what injector size Ford used the MAF meter with, as the Ford calibrations don't work that way.
    Maybe you already know that, and I am misreading your question again?




    Hope that makes sense,
    jason
  10. strtrcr50

    strtrcr50 New Member

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    If you are inputting the maf transfer, it is immaterial what injectors were on the car that the MAF matches up to. If you are going that route, I'd recommend a 90 mm Lightning MAF. If you need a transfer for it, let me know.
    LMAF for $100
  11. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    Yes I understand your frustration... after being a member on here and eectuning for years, I can honestly say I feel your pain. :)

    Yes I understand the two are independant cal's, but it is helpfull (imho) to gain other insights from the factory tune by looking at injector timing, high and low slopes, decel fuel shutoff, etc, etc, etc... that is why I would like to know which ones came with an 80 or 90mm MAF and stock 24# injectors. :shrug:

    But please, stop trying to answer what you think is the intent of my question and just look at what is written on your screen. :eek: The intent of my question is EXACTLY what I typed in. I am wondering what late model fords came with a large diamater MAF and 24s from the factory.... I am not a woman, I dont say one thing and mean something else... :rlaugh: :nono:

    How about the late model cobras like 96-98? Didn't they have an 80mm and 24s?

    How about lightnings, I got one reply on another board telling me they had 24s but I thought they were much larger than that (like 36 or 42).

    As I mentioned, I am not asking about a 93 cobra... I am wondering about late 90's and up (like 96-98 cobra or lightnings maybe or ???)

    What I am asking ( please just answer the question, not what you think the intent is behind it... ) what late model fords, if any, came with factory 24s and an 80 or 90mm MAF? :shrug:

    That is why I was asking did any late model fords (late 90's+) come with an 80 or 90mm MAF and 24# injectors from the factory? :shrug:


    Dave
    :nice:

    I searched on here, google, eectuning, fordfuelinj, etc.. and can't find much in terms of what came stock on what.
    :nonono:

    Seriously guys, it's not that complex of a question... stop overthinking it, stop trying to read my mind and just answer the f-ing question. :rlaugh: :nice: :rlaugh:
  12. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    Ok,
    I've had enough of tip-toeing around your arrogance.

    You are the typical internet know-it-all, who expects everyone to bow down to your every desire.

    You came here looking for advice on your tune. You didn't take any advice given.
    Why should I continue to try helping? You are a waste of my time, because you are dismissing everything I say.



    No... there is absolutely nothing that you can REQUIRE me to do.

    If you have a problem with what I am saying, then go somewhere else.
    You came here, and asked me a question.
    You don't get to require anything of me.
    What authority do you think you have?

    If you are so smart/experienced, and have been certified in EFI by ASE, then why are you on an internet board asking remedial questions?
    Oh, but I'm sure you can change tires really fast after graduating PIT.

    Seriously,
    If you have all this training/experience & are certified in EFI, then why is fixing your own car so difficult for you?
    Maybe because you really aren't that bright... or maybe because you have trouble taking advice from others.... arrogance will do that to a guy.

    You can't get your junk to run right, and are expecting someone here to wave a magic wand and fix it for you.

    I have offered you advice.
    Instead of you being appreciative, you have been condescending and rude.


    Good luck finding the answer on your own.
    I'm done trying to help you.

    The really retarded part of this is. It doesn't matter what the injector size was. I've told you this several times, but I guess you are too dense to listen... or maybe you figure that all those 'certifications' make you above taking advice?

    For being so well trained, you really are having a pretty tough time understanding something this basic.


    Again... WTF do I owe you?

    I get on this board WHEN I FEEL LIKE IT!

    If you don't like my schedule, then you can kiss my @$$.

    No,
    The best solution for you would be to take your car to a shop, and pay someone who's qualified to fix it.

    You don't listen to advice given, and you feel you know more than everyone else (you even told us how much training/certs/experience you have).

    Further proof of your lack of understanding.
    It seriously took you 6 weeks to create a basic tune?
    Switching over to X3Z should be an afternoon project, but I guess if a guy has no idea what he's doing it would take a little longer.



    When you get right down to it Dave,
    I don't owe you anything.
    Since you are an unappreciative, condescending, arrogant, idiot..... I'm done.

    Good luck with your car, you are going to need it.

    jason
  13. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    Dave,
    If it is such an easy question, then someone with your level of training, certifications, and massive experience should have no trouble finding the answer on your own.

    I mean really, you are ASE certified, right?
    You are a factory Tech, right?
  14. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    Just checked your profile and you haven't been on the board since the 26th....


    But if I don't respond to your questions within a few HOURS, then I'm a jerk???

    WTF?





    You get the problems sorted out?
  15. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    1. I didn't come on asking advice on a tune, I came asking what late model fords (if any) came with a large dia MAF (like 80 or 90mm) and 24s from the factory.

    2. I got out of the industry in 90' when I went in the military (hence my lack of knowledge about the late model stuff... hence the question) I've done multiple searches for some kind of listing of what came stock, but all I seem to find are buku threads by people with idle problems, blower installs, etc...

    3. I never said you were a jerk, I was surprised that noone had answered yet (hence the "crickets chirping" remark... ) It is frustrating to keep asking a simple question and noone can actually answer it... :shrug:

    4. No it doesn't take 6 weeks to build a basic tune (that's not what I said) it takes me about 6 weeks to build a COMPLETE tune... fine tuning : injector timing, ignition timing, accelerator pump functions (like plenum volume, etc...), etc, etc... a BASIC tune takes all of an hour or two. But a basic tune does not have factory level drivability and fuel economy. And again, I didn't ask your advice about a tune in this thread... just (what I though was) a simple question about original ford equipment.

    5. As I have explained, yes I know the injector size is not *directly* tied to the MAF, but I like to gain insight from other parameters of the tune which are interrelated to how the system works as a whole package. (hence my Q about factory equiped big MAF, 24# fords)

    6. If you don't know the answer, just simply say you don't know and I'll continue to look elsewhere again. Not a big deal. :rolleyes:

    7. Question still stands for anyone else on here... know of any late model fords (like, late 90s or newer) that come from the factory with an 80 or 90mm MAF and 24# injectors?

    Thanks,
    Dave
  16. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    The arrogant and condescending comments weren't in your last post, and I appreciate that!


    3.
    Again... if it was such a simple question, then it would be easy to find the answer. If I knew of a resource that listed MAF sizes, injector sizes, and correlated that with the ecu catch code & fully hacked .bin file.... then i would gladly share that with you.

    Even if you do find a vehicle that had a 80mm MAF and 24Lb injectors... what are the odds that the .bin file has been explored well enough to find all the MAF and Injector settings? not that good...

    The best direction I can give you is this...
    Ford did use 24's in some of the F-series trucks equipped with 460's... not sure of years. I have no idea what size the MAF (it may have even been SD, and it may have been batch fire) was, and I have no idea if the .bin for that vehicle has been 'hacked out', or even what the ecu catch code was.


    4.
    The reason for suggesting the X3Z as a starting point, was so that you could utilize the Decel Fuel Shut Off strategy that is utilized in the X3Z (and not used in the A9L).
    Most of the 'fine tuning' you spent 6 weeks working on, could be transferred directly to the X3Z tune.
    MAF Transfer wouldn't change from what you have now.
    Injector slopes wouldn't change from what you have now.
    Injector timing wouldn't change from what you have now.
    The main Ignition timing tables wouldn't change from what you have now.
    Accelerator Pump functions wouldn't change from what you have now.
    (you could also achieve the same thing by loading the DFSO settings from the X3Z into your current A9L tune... I suggested starting with the X3Z, as it would be easy to miss one of the DFSO settings...)

    Even if you didn't transfer your parameter settings though, simply running a basic tune with the X3Z's DFSO settings would tell you if that is where the problem lies.....


    5.
    There are no guarantees that the same philosophies where used to program other Ford vehicles with 24's. For example, compare the injector settings between A9L and X3Z. You will see that some pretty fundamental differences exist in HOW Ford set up these injector settings.
    The A9L and X3Z are the same Strategy, and there are profound differences.
    We can't expect that comparing 2 different strategies will yield anything useful....

    6.
    Not only do I not know... but I have ZERO intention of ever knowing. You may ask WHY I would say that????
    Basically, you won't learn anything from knowing this, which couldn't have been learned elsewhere.
    You would be comparing different Strategies... which makes the comparison the same as comparing apples to oranges.
    You won't even be able to use the 'comparison' feature in Binary Editor to compare the 2 tunes.

    Now, if you have specific questions about the injector settings or other related parameters... go ahead and ask.


    7.
    If you are looking to see what the Injector settings Ford used for 24's, then why would you care what size the MAF was? You agreed earlier that the MAF settings and injector settings weren't directly related, so why ask this question?
    The question doesn't make any sense, as the answer wouldn't tell you anything.





    One of my favorite movie quotes of all time seems appropriate now....
    "What we have here, is a failure to communicate"
    lol

    Good Luck Dave,
    jason
  17. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    Thanks Jason,

    (if ya didn't know, all ya had to do was say so...) :D :rlaugh: :nice:

    Seriously though, I do appreciate the advice... but I think it's worth a look to see what I can see. Besides I've got all winter, the worst that can happen is I wind up not finding anything. Then I'm still no worse off than I was to start with.

    I have started working on an old X3Z that I had run for awhile, several years ago... I'm hesitant about importing too much into it, for fear of duplicating / bringing the problem with me. I'll just start with a... , um... "expanded basic" :D and work from there. Give it plenty of time inbetween changes, to see if it's adaptive related or not. And see if I can isolate which change it is that starts the problem... then figure out why.

    The reason I'd like to look at the other stratagies, is if I look at the package as a whole and compare some of the trends within it (MAF xfer / hi&lo slopes / breakpoints / injector timing / etc... as a group) it may be possible to pick up on why they did certain things the way they did.

    As I'm sure you know, you can alter the hi/lo slopes and breakpoints and make the MAF xfer look wrong, even though it's dead on... I've also found I can get a noticable change in kamrf (at light load cruise) by moving the injector timing around.

    These types of things get me wondering what other interrelations the factory knew about and developed a "work around" for, that we twEECers have yet to discover... Plus it looks like Jon's software and the .bin knowledgebase has grown a bit in the last 2 years... so that may hold the answer too.

    Since the i-net hasn't had much, guess I'll hit up the libraby in town and see what their selection of ford techmanuals looks like. Those should tell what came equiped on the motor. Then its just a matter of downloading the bin to seeing what they did and how they did it... then trying to figure out why. :shrug:

    If I think that I've found something, I'll post up and we can argue about what it means... :ban: :rlaugh:


    And if anybody else reads this and knows of a list of what vehicles came stock, with what MAF and injectors, please post up a link or something.

    Thanks,
    Dave
  18. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    Dave,
    Have you checked out Binary Editor?

    Currently, it seems to be the best developed software available.


    You can download the software for free (but to download tunes it needs to be registered...)
    EEC Analyzer

    I tried using the standard tweecer CalEdit/CalCon stuff, TunerPro, and even PCMX, then found BE...
    BE has been the best I have found.
    Just an option...

    Later Dave,
    jason
  19. ddonaca351

    ddonaca351 Active Member

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    Yeah, I've got Jon's EA on my lap top from a few years ago, before I went away.
    ( think it's a version 1.x.x :rlaugh: he's on ver 3. something now... )

    Even back then his software was a better resource than Mike's stuff.
    ( pretty sad when a customer / fellow tuner gives you better support / tools than the manufacturer does :rolleyes: )

    His new version of EA looks amazing! All polished up, packed with features, ... man the injector timing / camshaft page alone is worth solid gold. :eek: :nice:

    I'm definately going to have to check out his BE stuff.

    ( mail man brought goodies today... :D nice shiny 90mm lightning unit sitting on the kitchen counter, waiting to go in ;) it was a flea-bay score )
  20. vristang

    vristang Advanced Member

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    An LMAF :nice:

    Just a heads up... some guys have had issues finding the right MAF Transfer to use. Apparently there were some variations to the meter calibration over the years...
    There were a couple of older eectuning threads regarding it.

    Keep me posted,
    jason

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