Front Brake Cooling

[91 Black Hole]

HI All,

I have a 91 LX Coupe that I am using for HPDE and TT. As I am progressing up the intermediate ranks I am needing to have to add cooling to my front brakes. I am using factory front discs with Hawk HP+ pads. I have MM Koni yellow coilover kit, MM caster camber plates and a stock K member for my front suspension. I tried drilled and slotted rotors with the results that can be expected.

I am not in a position at this time make a brake upgrade but am going to budget for that in the future. For now I would like to use blank rotors and add cooling until I can afford the upgrade. I feel that even after I upgrade the brakes I am going to need cooling ducts anyway and it is something I can afford to do at this time.

I have been doing web research and can't find any easy solutions so I realize I am going to have to fabricate something myself. I have pretty good fab skills and feel this is something I can accomplish. I am hoping someone here has done this before and give me some helpful hints on how to proceed. Much easier to learn from others than to use the "learn how not to do it method".

The beginner thanks the pro's in advance!

 

[AeroCoupe]

If you are running the fox brakes you are SOL. You could install SN95 V6/GT brakes pretty cheap and they are waaaay better than the Fox junk. When you move up to the SN95 brakes then if you need cooling Kenny Bell has some that are legit.

FRONT Brake Ducts for 1996-2004 Mustang and Cobra

The Front Brake Duct Kit helps reduce front brake operating temperatures for improved rotor and brake pad life. Cooler brakes have less fade from high temperatures and provide more positive stopping power. This kit is a must-have system for the demanding conditions of open-track driving or road...

kennybrown.com

 

[General karthief]

What is HPDE?
Pardon me I'm older
Sports car racing league or class?

 

[AeroCoupe]

High Performance Driving Event

HPDE - National Auto Sport Association

NASA gives you and your car an easy, safe, and affordable way to get on the track! No speed limits, no pedestrians, but best of all-no tickets.

drivenasa.com

Watched a brand new Porsche go over the tires in the bitch at Hallett a few years back. Insurance paid for it and the goof ball was at the next event in Houston with his new one. Terrible driver.

 

[91 Black Hole]

Thanks for reply aerocoupe. I saw that and am thinking I might fab something similar. Also looking at kit from foxbodybrakes.com that modifies fix front spindle and allows use of 13" cobra front brake rotor with seperate hub. Just don't like using a drilled rotor on track. Do you know anything about it? You seem to have a lot of knowledge about these cars.

General, there are also hpde that include instruction. I like those and the fact that they tend to be non competitive events, mostly. You do have to watch out for the nuts also like aerocoupe pointed out.

 

[Mustang5L5]

The weakness in the fox brake is that it’s a combination rotor/hub and that is no good for heat dissipation. You really want to be done with this archaic design and move to sealed hubs and slip on rotors. Of course, the sealed hubs have their own issue and required a bearing repack with high quality grease for HPDE.

If you are going to swap brake parts, go true SN95 cobra. Otherwise just run ducts to the center inside hat area for now and save up.

 

[AeroCoupe]

Just make the move to the SN95 GT/V6 brakes bd upgrade that booster and master cylinder. Run the 99+ front calipers and some good pads like Hawk HP+ on the track and it will be 100 times better than the Fox brakes. Now if you can swing the Cobra’s then do it but the only difference is faster heat dissipation due to the larger rotors and the rear rotor are vented vs solid which again helps with heat dissipation. I would say most enthusiast won’t experience brake fad in a standard 20 minute session and with adequate time to cool off between sessions. If you are hitting 40 minute sessions or back to backing a couple 20 minute ones and are super aggressive then you could get some fade.

Higher temperature brake pad compounds will also help combats fad.

 

[revhead347]

What is HPDE?
Pardon me I'm older
Sports car racing league or class?

High Performance Driving Event. It's just a get together at a road coarse where the sponsor pairs you up with an instructor who teaches you how to properly push your car amongst friendly competition. No points or competition, just learning.

Kurt

 

[91 Black Hole]

The weakness in the fox brake is that it’s a combination rotor/hub and that is no good for heat dissipation. You really want to be done with this archaic design and move to sealed hubs and slip on rotors. Of course, the sealed hubs have their own issue and required a bearing repack with high quality grease for HPDE.

If you are going to swap brake parts, go true SN95 cobra. Otherwise just run ducts to the center inside hat area for now and save up.

Thanks,

I m going to follow the general advice and upgrade to the SN95 brakes this winter. I added some cooling ducts that I am going to test this weekend. Can you explain your comment on repacking the bearing in a sealed hub? I understand the why, just not the how you do it. From what little bit I have researched these hubs look like they have removable sealed bearings.

I am considering the BAER and FOXBODYBRAKES.com front hub / spindle upgrades. Do you have experience or comments about them?

Thanks

 

[91 Black Hole]

Just make the move to the SN95 GT/V6 brakes bd upgrade that booster and master cylinder. Run the 99+ front calipers and some good pads like Hawk HP+ on the track and it will be 100 times better than the Fox brakes. Now if you can swing the Cobra’s then do it but the only difference is faster heat dissipation due to the larger rotors and the rear rotor are vented vs solid which again helps with heat dissipation. I would say most enthusiast won’t experience brake fad in a standard 20 minute session and with adequate time to cool off between sessions. If you are hitting 40 minute sessions or back to backing a couple 20 minute ones and are super aggressive then you could get some fade.

Higher temperature brake pad compounds will also help combats fad.

Thanks again for the reply.

I am going to make that upgrade this winter, just have to research cost and options. I am considering the BAER and FOXBODYBRAKES.com front spindle options. Do you have any experience with or comments about them?

Thanks

 

[AeroCoupe]

A lot of guys run HPDE and NASA AI with stock SN95 spindles and hubs. Repacking the bearings in the SN95 hubs is a pain in the rear and the only reason you will need to do it is if you are generating a lot of heat in the front. With cooling ducts (done correctly) this greatly reduces the heat so its not a prevalent on cars with brake cooling. But since you asked here:

https://www.ffcars.com/threads/how-to-rebuild-sn-95-front-hubs.236928/

How to Repack SN-95 Spindle Hub Bearings

This is how you repack SN-95 Spindle Hub Bearings Contrary to what everyone says or is told, the bearings are not "pressed in". Some are correct to a certain extent when they refer to them as "sealed" I can only speak for the SN-95 Spindles and hubs because that is what I have on my 90. It's...

stangnet.com

 

[Mustang5L5]

Thanks,

I m going to follow the general advice and upgrade to the SN95 brakes this winter. I added some cooling ducts that I am going to test this weekend. Can you explain your comment on repacking the bearing in a sealed hub? I understand the why, just not the how you do it. From what little bit I have researched these hubs look like they have removable sealed bearings.

I am considering the BAER and FOXBODYBRAKES.com front hub / spindle upgrades. Do you have experience or comments about them?

Thanks

SN95 hubs look like this.

This typically slides off the spindle and is a separate sealed unit that can be replaced. Typically these are non-servicable, but they can be disassembled and repacked. Most road racing guys do this because the standard grease cannot handle the high heat and it needs quality grease.


These are the spindles with the hubs removed.

Some of the earlier Baer kits used a Fox-style spindle in which the bearings themselves ride on the spindle and the rotor is a combination outer race and rotor which rides on the bearings.

Your best bet is to stick with a brake system that relies on the OEM 94-04 SN95 type front spindle design. The reason for this is because you will be able to go into any auto parts store, or Amazon, or Rockauto, and be able to buy parts for them. That's the key benefit of a production brake system, especially a popular one.

Some of the aftermarket brake systems use proprietary components like 13" cobra rotors built on a foxbody spindle/hub arrangement. If you need a new rotor, you are stuck and need to order one from the company.

Baer does make both systems although I believe their newer stuff is purely Sn95 spindle derived. Their brakes are fantastic and I am by no means tryig to dissuade you from them in general. But for parts availability and aftermarket support, a standard Sn95 spindle front setup is the way to go.

 

[FastDriver]

Even my old 90s era Baers use the 96 spindle.

Also, thought it was 'High Performance Driver's Education' as in the idea that education with instructors was integral to the event.

 

[revhead347]

As said before, the fix for foxbody brakes is to update to SN brakes.

Kurt

 

[FastDriver]

Do we have any track guys that can attest to the effectiveness brake ducts?

 

[AeroCoupe]

100% work if you are hitting it hard. For HPDE don’t waste your money but if you are going to dedicate the car to CMC, AI, AIX then absolutely. For the general enthusiast better brake compounds will do the trick.

My back ground is a general enthusiast but I pit crewed for my buddy that won the Texas NASA AI championship three years in a row.

 

[slow84lx]

Chosen correctly SN95 brake parts on a Fox using low-cost OEM parts will provide more braking power than you will need on your Fox even in this HPDE course. You can spend a lot of money on the aftermarket brake system but it isn't necessary for this performance level.

Here is some reading material for when you have a minute:

Brakes - The Ultimate 4-lug/5-lug Brake Conversion/upgrade Thread

Starting this thread with the hopes of reducing the number of 5-lug or general brake upgrade threads that have been appearing on the forums since most of the major brake conversion sites have gone down. This thread will be strictly informational, and any off-topic banter or user specific...

stangnet.com

 

[limp]

As said before, the fix for foxbody brakes is to update to SN brakes.

Kurt

 

[91 Black Hole]

Thanks for the replies.

I am going to make the change to SN95 brakes over the winter. I already have a cobra master cylinder conversion from MM and rear 93 cobra discs. LMR sells rear rotors that are drilled for 4 and 5 lug axles so I think I can make them work with new 5 lug rear axles. According to MM it is best that I use 94-95 spindles since I am using the factory K member. Since this is a winter project I will start searching for spindle assy, axles and wheels. Repacking front bearings does look like a pain but doable for me, thanks for the info. Since the car is mostly used for hpde, autox and maybe a time trial I prefer not to use drilled rotors and this will give me better options and parts availabilty.

So if any one has some good used 17x9 5 lugs wheels and spindles and parts I am interested. I also will have a set of 17x8 used 4 lug 95 Cobra r style wheels for sale or trade. Less than 1 year old.

Thanks for all the input, you are all very helpful and I look forward to taking my time over the winter to complete this treasure hunt and project!

DS

 

[AeroCoupe]

Whatever front hubs you get we used to prefer the ones with Timken or Koyo brand bearings. They seemed to last longer and take more of the track abuse.