Cam Timing Question

[67coupe]

Everything sounds fine with the cam timing. I'm mainly concerned with dizzy timing and the adjustment of the valves.

I think you understand how to fix the dizzy timing. I'm also starting to think you might have some valves slightly open by the sound of how the rockers were installed.

You should adjust valves in firing order as this follows the cam. 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

1) Make sure valve to be adjusted is on the base circle of the cam. Rotate the engine in its normal direction of rotation (clockwise) and watch the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder. When the exhaust valve begins to open, stop and adjust that cylinder's intake rocker arm.
2) Install rocker and HAND tighten bolt.
3) Set torque wrench to 18 lb-ft. With torque wrench starting at the 12:00 position, tighten the rocker bolt.
4)

A - If you reach torque before 90* of rotation, remove shims until torque is reached between 90* and 1 full turn.
B - If you reach torque between 90* of rotation and 1 full turn. This rocker is adjusted correctly.
C - If you do not reach torque prior to 1 full turn, add shims until torque is reached between 90* and 1 full turn.

5) Continue to turn the engine, watching that same intake valve/rocker you just set. It will go to full open and then begin to close. When it is almost closed, stop and adjust the exhaust rocker arm on that particular cylinder. Loosen the exhaust rocker arm and follow the same procedure described before in steps 2 thru 4 to adjust this rocker arm.
6) Both valves on this cylinder are now adjusted, and you can move on to your next cylinder and follow the same procedure again.

There may be some initial valvetrain noise when the engine is first fired up but once oil pressure has stabilized and the engine heats up, it should quiet right down to a normal level.

 

[LaserSVT]

67Coupe, you are my hero! I was worried about Strype and I have a hard time explaining that stuff. Glad you can be of help to him!

Strype, wish you would of found a friend thats more knowledgeable for that job. It was a big job you undertook for a n00b.
The little I know about roller rockers has more to do with push rod lengths. Are you sure you have the right length push rods? The roller on the rocker should be about dead center on the valve tip. If its too far forward then your push rods are too long and that would keep you from building compression too.
Also, stop trying to start the engine until you have the valves lashed properly. Last thing you need is to break a rocker or bend a push rod. Get a manual and read its instructions.

The fuel problem is what also worries me. Either you have a couple stuck injectors or leaky fuel fittings. If you have an injector leaking on the passenger side badly then I could be spraying into that head with no cover then mixing in the oil. You need to check for fuel puddling on the plenum.
Could be a faulty regulator too

 

[Strype]

Thanks guys I'm gonna go against your rocker advice just for the moment because the fuel is worrying me too. Here's what I did when I got home...

Rolled the motor around (from the alternator LOL), and watched each rocker arm in sequence of firing order. So like 67 Coupe said, it's NOT the cam out of time.

My neighbor and I found TDC on the #1 and stabbed the dizzy in. Wouldn't crank. I rolled the motor around again and at the exhaust stroke the dizzy was 180 deg away from the 1st plug wire. She should be close enough to crank.

Question- Does the first plug sit before or after the #1 stamped on the bottom of the cap???

At this point I start thinking. The ground shakes and after I get done talking with a friend and watching the Apache Longbow circling overhead (ADHD) I remembered that the asshat who sold me the injectors said "One of them is different because it is new. I thought I had a stuck injector but it ended up being something else."

*light bulb*

I looked but never saw an aftermarket or newer injector. Ten bucks says he found his old one, took the new one and shipped me that piece of crap he didn't trust. That would explain the hissing noise I heard by the intake when my neighbor primed the pump. That would explain my loss in fuel pressure. That would explain the gas in the oil pan, because a cylinder is sitting full of gas and it's seeping passed the ring overnight.

Then there's the issue of the gas in the exhaust...

Well the timing was WAY off. As I said before, my buddy stabbed the distributor at a 9-10 o'clock position. It was supposed to be at 1-2 o'clock. That's damn near 180 out. I'm just taking a leap of faith here, but I bet that the spark plugs were firing so far out of sequence that the exhaust stroke was dumping gas into the exhaust. This would explain the backfiring out of the intake and maff as well.

Now for the rockers. We tested a couple of them and sure enough they were at 20 ft lbs and were not over a full turn. I will FOR SURE go back through them, but for now here's the plan:

a) Timing is close now. Depending on whether the 1st plug is before or after the mark on the underside of the cap. We had the rotor pointing spot on the 1st plug wire though. The car is close enough to crank I think.

b) Fuel pressure loss. I am about to go outside and take the upper plenum off and replace the 24lb injectors with the stock set that I am 100% sure work.

c) We had the stock valve cover on the passenger side sans the baffle, but we didn't grind out the ridges. I didn't see any marks on the valve cover or the rocker arms, but I will pay close attention to the #1 cylinder now. I do not believe the rockers hit but it's a possibility none the less.


One other thing, I can hear compression when the motor is turned by hand. When the exhaust valve is opening up I hear a release. I don't know if I heard it from one cylinder (i was standing by #1) or others. I had my mind on timing. I'll run it around again and see if I hear this at every cylinder as it goes around.

So let me know if my plan is any bit bad

I really appreciate the help gentlemen.

Off to change the injectors before bed time

 

[jikelly]

Sounds like you are on the right track.

 

[Strype]

Thanks keep your fingers crossed. I'll redo the rocker arms too while I'm doing the injectors and change the oil.

Yeesh.

Anybody know how to tell the difference between motor oil/gas in the exhaust and new exhaust coating/gas in the exhaust? It looks black/brown but I just changed the oil.

That has me worried...


Can a rotor button pointing 100-180 degrees in the wrong spot cause oil in the exhaust? It's just enough to soak up with a paper towel but it's coming out of both sides of the h-pipe it appears. It's like pure gas with a brown oil mixed in with it.

 

[67coupe]

My neighbor and I found TDC on the #1 and stabbed the dizzy in. Wouldn't crank. I rolled the motor around again and at the exhaust stroke the dizzy was 180 deg away from the 1st plug wire. She should be close enough to crank.

Question- Does the first plug sit before or after the #1 stamped on the bottom of the cap???

At this point I start thinking. The ground shakes and after I get done talking with a friend and watching the Apache Longbow circling overhead (ADHD) I remembered that the asshat who sold me the injectors said "One of them is different because it is new. I thought I had a stuck injector but it ended up being something else."

*light bulb*

I looked but never saw an aftermarket or newer injector. Ten bucks says he found his old one, took the new one and shipped me that piece of crap he didn't trust. That would explain the hissing noise I heard by the intake when my neighbor primed the pump. That would explain my loss in fuel pressure. That would explain the gas in the oil pan, because a cylinder is sitting full of gas and it's seeping passed the ring overnight.

Then there's the issue of the gas in the exhaust...

Well the timing was WAY off. As I said before, my buddy stabbed the distributor at a 9-10 o'clock position. It was supposed to be at 1-2 o'clock. That's damn near 180 out. I'm just taking a leap of faith here, but I bet that the spark plugs were firing so far out of sequence that the exhaust stroke was dumping gas into the exhaust. This would explain the backfiring out of the intake and maff as well.

Now for the rockers. We tested a couple of them and sure enough they were at 20 ft lbs and were not over a full turn. I will FOR SURE go back through them, but for now here's the plan:

a) Timing is close now. Depending on whether the 1st plug is before or after the mark on the underside of the cap. We had the rotor pointing spot on the 1st plug wire though. The car is close enough to crank I think.

b) Fuel pressure loss. I am about to go outside and take the upper plenum off and replace the 24lb injectors with the stock set that I am 100% sure work.

c) We had the stock valve cover on the passenger side sans the baffle, but we didn't grind out the ridges. I didn't see any marks on the valve cover or the rocker arms, but I will pay close attention to the #1 cylinder now. I do not believe the rockers hit but it's a possibility none the less.


One other thing, I can hear compression when the motor is turned by hand. When the exhaust valve is opening up I hear a release. I don't know if I heard it from one cylinder (i was standing by #1) or others. I had my mind on timing. I'll run it around again and see if I hear this at every cylinder as it goes around.

So let me know if my plan is any bit bad

I really appreciate the help gentlemen.

Off to change the injectors before bed time

Good work. Sounds like you're making progress.

Timing sounds close enough. Might have to turn the dizzy a few degrees while trying to start.

The factory #1 mark tells which terminal the #1 plug wire connects to. Looks under the cap to find the actual "terminal" corresponding with the mark. This is where the rotor should point. I like to have the leading edge of the rotor at this terminal. So, just slightly before.

I was going to suggest installing the factory injectors. Do you have a 19# or factory MAF.

If you do have an injector hung open, then yes, it will dump lots of fuel into the cylinder....ending up in the oil pan and in the exhaust system. Also, since the dizzy provides injector timing, a dizzy that's 180 out might send some gas into the exhaust system (squirt fuel during overlap), too.

From you pics, looks like you have tall valve covers. Clearance shouldn't be a problem.

Other than that....plan sounds good.

 

[67coupe]

Now for the rockers. We tested a couple of them and sure enough they were at 20 ft lbs and were not over a full turn. I will FOR SURE go back through them, but for now here's the plan:

So, you loosened a few rockers, hand tightened, and then checked the torque?

Anybody know how to tell the difference between motor oil/gas in the exhaust and new exhaust coating/gas in the exhaust? It looks black/brown but I just changed the oil.

That has me worried...


Can a rotor button pointing 100-180 degrees in the wrong spot cause oil in the exhaust? It's just enough to soak up with a paper towel but it's coming out of both sides of the h-pipe it appears. It's like pure gas with a brown oil mixed in with it.

I doubt you're seeing oil. Its probably a mix of gas and carbon from the exhaust system.

 

[Strype]

So, you loosened a few rockers, hand tightened, and then checked the torque?



I doubt you're seeing oil. Its probably a mix of gas and carbon from the exhaust system.

Yes we took 3 loose and reinstalled them. I'm going thru all of them tonight. I have (supposedly) a 24lb sampling tube on the maf but the same asshat who sold me the injectors told me this. There are no part numbers. I will change the sampling tube back to the 19lb as well I'm g lad you mentioned that. Mr. ADHD here would have forgotten.

Exhaust is all new from header to h-pipe. The mufflers back are old. Could still be from where it connects to the old... Hmm...

Lots to do lots to do.

I have the fuel lines on the intake disconnected and I just have to replace them with the older injectors and put the plenum back on.


QUESTION FOR ANYONE-

Is the schrader valve on the return line or on the feed line. The feed line goes into the front of the rail, and the return line connects to the FPR correct? Which one is larger. I have read where jrichter said the larger line is the return and other places say the larger line is the feed. I trust jrichter of course to be correct, but for safety's sake does anyone know if the schrader valve is on the FPR line or the feed line???

I can't tell what was done from my pictures.

 

[Darkwriter77]

Larger line almost always = pressure (feed) line. The Schraeder valve will be on the pressure line, as that will tell you how many PSI you're getting from the fuel pump to the rails - otherwise, it'd be kinda useless as a diagnostic port if it went by all the injectors first and THEN let you take a reading (too many variables between the pump and gauge).

 

[Strype]

Larger line almost always = pressure (feed) line. The Schraeder valve will be on the pressure line, as that will tell you how many PSI you're getting from the fuel pump to the rails - otherwise, it'd be kinda useless as a diagnostic port if it went by all the injectors first and THEN let you take a reading (too many variables between the pump and gauge).

Tanx I can't wait to get home and work on this thing. If it works with the stock injectors somebody is getting his butt kicked thru paypal

 

[gt40_2003wes]

howd it turn out for ya this evening strype?

 

[Strype]

Put the stock injectors in and 3 started spewing gas from the lower intake where they sit

The lower is cracking the bottom caps on the stock injectors

*suicide*

 

[Strype]

I quit!

 

[Darkwriter77]

Unless this MUST be done within a certain time frame ... step away, take a break, and come back to it when you're ready to deal with it. Getting all riled up and pissed off at it will only make it harder for you to figure out what's going on with it.

 

[Strype]

Unless this MUST be done within a certain time frame ... step away, take a break, and come back to it when you're ready to deal with it. Getting all riled up and pissed off at it will only make it harder for you to figure out what's going on with it.

It also results in screaming and cursing followed by a 20 month old running into the garage saying, "Da da??? Da da??? Da da???"

 

[cheese_05_70]

well im new to this thread but I read through it. My first impression was you need to slow down a little bit. You talk about so many things at one time. Focus on one problem at a time.
Ok did you ever get it timed correctly? Like they said they run nasty and smell like fuel and pop if they are 180 out.

And you can go on ebay and buy the caps for your injectors and all the o rings from Mr. Injector for like 16$ shipped.

Hope this helped I have chased my tail on my HCI and it is finely running right and I love it. I put a E cam in mine.

I would get it running right and then worry about the fuel coming out of the exhaust and change the oil right away but thats just me.

Colby

 

[FastDriver]

I'm bored, and I like you. So, I'm going to throw some stuff out there that will hopefully help you a little. Most of it was probably covered, and I don't intend to step on the toes of anybody else that's already been helping you. I just thought that maybe hearing some of the stuff from a different perspective might help to clarify some things or maybe bring out a couple of different details that you haven't already heard. So, here goes:

Fuel
- The FPR is on the return side. On that line, the opposite side of the injectors will be the feed. From that, you should be able to look at and determine where the valve is. I believe that the schrader is on the feed, but that isn't necessarily so. Fuel pressure is constant in the line between the fuel pump and the FPR. A drop in line pressure anywhere along the way affects the fuel pressure of the system throughout both on the feed and return lines (before the FPR).

Unfortunately, my fuel system is so far from stock that I cannot just run out and check the schrader valve's position for you, but I don't honestly understand why this is important. As long as the pressurized line from the fuel pump runs to the injectors before the FPR, it is right.

If you are unable to build line pressure during cranking, then the leak is too serious to leave be. You shouldn't lose pressure within seconds, theoretically, but as long as the line pressure is in the 30 ish range during cranking, it should be enough to start. Either you or a buddy should monitor the fuel pressure while the motor is cranking.

A stuck fuel injector will not prevent the car from starting. It'll smoke like hell once it's running, though. There are 7 other cylinders that would provide the needed power to get the motor running. 5.0s have low tension ring seal, which requires cylinder pressure to be effective. Since it wasn't being ignited when your timing was way out of whack, fuel was pooling around the cylinders and washing down the cylinder walls. Hence, it made it into the exhaust and into the crankcase. Don't worry about a thing. All of that is to be expected. If your ring seal is terrible, we'll figure that out later and deal with it after we get the car running. There are tests that will help us isolate that problem, but first we need to concentrate on getting the motor set up mechanically.

Rocker adjustment
- Adjusting the rockers: The steps listed are accurate, but there is a missing detail in this thread (unless I missed it in my quick skim). You should acheive the torque spec (18 ft-lbs) within 1/2 to 1 turn after zero lash. Previously, it looked like all that was being said was that you tighten the bolt by hand and then torque it to spec within 1/2 to 1 full turn. This is not the case. You must achieve 0 lash, and then torque to spec within 1/2-1 turns. 0 lash is typically determined by lightly twisting/spinning the pushrod with your index finger and thumb while the bolt is tightened. When there is enough resistance to keep the pushrold from spinning (i.e. there is no clearance between the lifter and the rocker) you are at zero lash. From that point you should reach your torque spec within 1/2 to 1 full turn. Be sure that you do not back off any rocker unless the cam is on that lifter's base circle. If the rocker is under spring load, you will likely break it while it is loosened.

If the rocker's roller tip is not centered vertically on the valve stem, the pushrod length is incorrect. Trial and error is one way to check length. The other more preferred way is to buy, borrow, or create a pushrod length checker.

If the rocker doesn't tighten to spec within 1/2 to 1 full turn, then shims must be added or removed to bring it back into tolerance.

Timing
The stamped "1" on the dizzy cap tells you which terminal to connect the #1 cylinder's plug and wire to. That indicator ensures the correct alignment/calibration of the hall effect sensor, which is inside of the distributor's shaft. The sensor's purpose allows the EEC to identify individual cylinders so that it can inject fuel sequentially. That said, even if your wires are not on the correct terminals, the car will still start as long as the spark travels to the #1 plug on it's compression stroke near TDC, and all of the wires are on in the correct firing order. Also, remember that the dizzy spins counterclockwise. So #3's wire should be counterclockwise from #1, and so on.

Chris

 

[67coupe]

Rocker adjustment
- Adjusting the rockers: The steps listed are accurate, but there is a missing detail in this thread (unless I missed it in my quick skim). You should acheive the torque spec (18 ft-lbs) within 1/2 to 1 turn after zero lash. Previously, it looked like all that was being said was that you tighten the bolt by hand and then torque it to spec within 1/2 to 1 full turn. This is not the case. You must achieve 0 lash, and then torque to spec within 1/2-1 turns. 0 lash is typically determined by lightly twisting/spinning the pushrod with your index finger and thumb while the bolt is tightened. When there is enough resistance to keep the pushrold from spinning (i.e. there is no clearance between the lifter and the rocker) you are at zero lash. From that point you should reach your torque spec within 1/2 to 1 full turn. Be sure that you do not back off any rocker unless the cam is on that lifter's base circle. If the rocker is under spring load, you will likely break it while it is loosened.

If the rocker's roller tip is not centered vertically on the valve stem, the pushrod length is incorrect. Trial and error is one way to check length. The other more preferred way is to buy, borrow, or create a pushrod length checker.

If the rocker doesn't tighten to spec within 1/2 to 1 full turn, then shims must be added or removed to bring it back into tolerance.



Chris

Thanks for catching that FastDriver. I thought it didn't sound right. However, I would like to add one more thing. Guess I should stick to stud mount (all I ever used).

When spinning the pushrod while hand tightening the bolt - As soon as you feel resistance in the pushrod, this is zero lash. Stop. Then check torque on rocker arm bolt as previously mentioned.

Strype, with this new information, I would definitely check the valves again.

 

[Strype]

You guys rock- Seriously thank you!

I will be working on her again this evening and I hope to get her cranked. I will be redoing the rocker arms FIRST this time and then I'll seat the fuel injectors correctly. She should be timed perfectly now.

Thank you I'll let you guys know how it went

 

[LaserSVT]

Did you replace the lower yet with BBK? I believe that was their recall was the injector holes breaking stuff