500 horses possible
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300bhp/ton
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ever heard of sarcasm??Word_Life said:
But, that aside I'll stand by my claim. A BBF would likely be the cheepest and easiet way to get 500bhp n/a in a Mustang. The 4.6 ain't gonna do it by a long shot.
Even a full out race engine will struggle, the 5.0 Cammer setup for Trans Am racing only manages just over 600bhp but that's an engine without any auxilary devices (air con, exhaust, possible even power steering).
It also is designed only to be kept in the high rpm range and will have almost no bottom end. Is running racing fuel (not sure of the octane, but I guess 114 or so), and the engine is probably only designed to run for a 1000 miles or so between rebuilds.
As a technical achievement, yes a 4.6 could be built to produce 500bhp n/a. It would however not be streetable (even in the most remote sense of the word), in fact it might not even be trackable (if that's word??). And it certainly would not be reliable.
A 4v n/a unit I can see making 75-80bhp/litre and still be streetable. Which is about where the 5.0 Cammer falls in from Ford Racing.
On a 4.6 that would be 4.6 x 75 = 345, 4.6 x 80 = 368bhp.
Given time and a lot of money, a 'more modern' engine should be able to produce around 100bhp/litre, but although this would give you good top end BHP you would loose out in low end grunt.
You simply can not have both, hence engines like the BMW M3 unit, TVR 6 cylinder engines and Ferrari V8's, they all produce around 100bhp/litre but have a much lower torque in the low rpms.
Remember hp = torque x rpms / 5252
So to increase hp you need to:
a) increase toque at the same rpm (larger displacment can do this, either in capacity or FI)
b)move the PEAK torque higher in the rpms although the actual number remains
c)a combination of both
So you could have an engine produce LESS torque but at a HIGHER rpm and it will produce more power. Than an engine producing MORE torque at a LOWER rpm.
The modular engines, only have 'acceptable' specific output, combine this with a comparitivly small displacement. Means you will always be compromised in output.
The easies way to get more power is to increase the engine capacity, this is done via FI, as all FI does is fit more air into the same space.
i.e. Larger capcity for the same displacement.
All things being equal, if you have 1 atmosphere of boost above standard atomspheric pressure (commonly recognised as 14psi or 1bar), your engine know has double the capacity as it know is able to hold twice the amount of air, although it's physical dimensions (displacment) as not changed.
A 4.6 running 1 bar of boost, would be the same as running a 9.2 litre n/a engine, all things being equal. Or course all things are not equal and there are plent of limiting factors.
But none the less, a STOCK 4.6 produces 260bhp, if you simply added 14psi of boost (with an intercooler) it would affectivly double the HP to just over 500bhp.
Word_Life
Banned
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=515518300bhp/ton said:
read. it's not hard to get 500RWHP, you just need the money.
Randy Haywood (548/439 STD*) 5.4L, Ported '00R's/Cams/Sheetmetal Intake/Carb/RG. N/A HP Champion.
Boss 330 (520/440 STD*) 5.4L, Ported '00R's/Cams/PSR/RG.
Mike T. @ Modular Performance (510 STD*) 5.0L, Ported FR500/PSR/Cams/RG.
Joe Hutchins SHM 5.2/5.3L (475) Ported B head/Cams/Kinsler IR intake/RG.
Shawn Johnson (454 STD*) 5.0L, Ported C Heads/Mod Perf Cams/Custom Intake/Carbureted/RG.
300bhp/ton
New Member
Word_Life said:
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=515518
read. it's not hard to get 500RWHP, you just need the money.
Randy Haywood (548/439 STD*) 5.4L, Ported '00R's/Cams/Sheetmetal Intake/Carb/RG. N/A HP Champion.
Boss 330 (520/440 STD*) 5.4L, Ported '00R's/Cams/PSR/RG.
Mike T. @ Modular Performance (510 STD*) 5.0L, Ported FR500/PSR/Cams/RG.
Joe Hutchins SHM 5.2/5.3L (475) Ported B head/Cams/Kinsler IR intake/RG.
Shawn Johnson (454 STD*) 5.0L, Ported C Heads/Mod Perf Cams/Custom Intake/Carbureted/RG.[/QUOTE]
Apart from them being STD and nt SAE numbers which we'll over look.
None of them are 4.6's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And are you really trying to tell me they are all perfectly streetable and well behaved without having any reliability issues. Oh and all running 91 ocatane, as that's the highest COMMON fuel grade available to everyone.
No!
These are specialty engines built for one purpose and would have cost plenty of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
And if you check back I never siad it wasn't possible, I indicated it wasn't feasable. A subtle but vital distinction.
300bhp/ton
New Member
Word_Life
Banned
what do you think the 5.0 is? I mean you CAN NOT bolt on 5.4L heads to a pushrod 302.300bhp/ton said:None of them are 4.6's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
^ course you didn't.300bhp/ton said:And if you check back I never siad it wasn't possible, I indicated it wasn't feasable. A subtle but vital distinction.
300bhp/ton said:
300bhp/ton
New Member
Yeah, but by that logic the new LS7 Z06 engine is the same as my Ls1 in my Z28?Word_Life said:
Or how about the BMW 4 cylinder engine from their road cars, which then became the basis of the 1st turbo charged F1 cars in the early 80's. The block it's self was said to be the same as the road engines, of course there where plenty of changes to the rest of the engine as stock the road cars had ~120bhp and the turbo'd race engines where near a 4 figure number in out put.
I mean it all depends where you draw the line and say one thing is the same or different.
Persoanlly I wouldn't say a bored and stroked, or simply larger CC engine with likely block changes and reinforcements, better water and oil passages and/or different materials, with totally different roating assemblies, heads and all other associated parts can really be considered the same engine.
You may be able to say it's loosely based on, but not the same.
Here, I'll make a little clearer for you should I:Word_Life said:
300bhp/ton said:
mattkimsey
I've compiled a list to recap this thread:
hotmustang331
Active Member
300, this is about if its possable to get 500HP out of an 03 GT. Ok, an 03 GT has a 4.6 (he wants to stay mod obviously)...you CAN MAKE A 4.6 INTO A 324CID MOTOR AND PUT 4V HEADS AND ALL THE WORKS ONTO IT.
And about the LS7 thing...its the same. Someone asks, " IS IT POSSABLE TO GET 500HP OUT OF MY LS1, WHAT DO I DO?" A REAL answer could be to bore and stroke the LS1 into a 427CID monster and throw on HUGE heads and a big cam....ITS STILL AN LS1! The factroy has to call the LS7 something different...it cant call it an LS1 if it changes it too much, but its the same base design and it can be done by anyone.
SO WORD_LIFE's point still stands...Now the 5.4 IS a different block design so I couldnt really count them....its funny lol, just what I said it would take to get 500RWHP (ported 00 cobra Rs and big cams ect) is EXACTLY what it took to get there...the FR500s are also GREAT heads but still dont hold a light to the Rs...nor do the 5.4 navi heads. SO a 4.6L based block can make 500HP, just need ported FR500 heads, big cams, 11-1 CR, and every bolton....it WOULD be streetable also and you could pull the timing and make it run 91. It would make 500HP, but probably not 500RWHP.
Bottom line, buy a forged SB and slap a novi 2000 on it....much easier.
And about the LS7 thing...its the same. Someone asks, " IS IT POSSABLE TO GET 500HP OUT OF MY LS1, WHAT DO I DO?" A REAL answer could be to bore and stroke the LS1 into a 427CID monster and throw on HUGE heads and a big cam....ITS STILL AN LS1! The factroy has to call the LS7 something different...it cant call it an LS1 if it changes it too much, but its the same base design and it can be done by anyone.
SO WORD_LIFE's point still stands...Now the 5.4 IS a different block design so I couldnt really count them....its funny lol, just what I said it would take to get 500RWHP (ported 00 cobra Rs and big cams ect) is EXACTLY what it took to get there...the FR500s are also GREAT heads but still dont hold a light to the Rs...nor do the 5.4 navi heads. SO a 4.6L based block can make 500HP, just need ported FR500 heads, big cams, 11-1 CR, and every bolton....it WOULD be streetable also and you could pull the timing and make it run 91. It would make 500HP, but probably not 500RWHP.
Bottom line, buy a forged SB and slap a novi 2000 on it....much easier.
next time I see Boss330, I'll be sure to mention to him how EASY it would be for me to get 550rwhp out of a 5.4 if I was spending the money he was.Word_Life said:
Quick tip: I wouldn't say **** like that to guys that build their own motors, and he didn't just slap together that motor in one build. He had a bunch of fabbing and trial and error to get there.
300bhp/ton
New Member
well for starters, the LS7 is a different block to a LS1.hotmustang331 said:
Plus if you want 500bhp from an ls1 all you need is bolt on's and a radical cam like a Trex. It might be a bit peaky but it'll still be streetable.
yeah, but a 4.6 is a 4.6 and a 5.4 is a 5.4, a 4.6 is NEVER a 5.4hotmustang331 said:SO WORD_LIFE's point still stands...Now the 5.4 IS a different block design so I couldnt really count them....its funny lol, just what I said it would take to get 500RWHP (ported 00 cobra Rs and big cams ect) is EXACTLY what it took to get there...the FR500s are also GREAT heads but still dont hold a light to the Rs...nor do the 5.4 navi heads. SO a 4.6L based block can make 500HP, just need ported FR500 heads, big cams, 11-1 CR, and every bolton....it WOULD be streetable also and you could pull the timing and make it run 91. It would make 500HP, but probably not 500RWHP.
Bottom line, buy a forged SB and slap a novi 2000 on it....much easier.
But I seriously doubt such an engine is really that streetable. The MG SV used the 5.0 Cammer, it was tuned for 385bhp, which is by no means extreme, but even at this level it was still lacking in low end torque. And was noted as such almost every review.
hotmustang331
Active Member
I know the LS7 is different...just as the aluminum block 4.6 is different from the GTs cast iron block and the 03 cobras cast iron block is different from the GT cast iron block...does that make it not the same basic engine? My point is that the LS7 is essentially the same motor as the LS1...just BEFFED WAY UP. Just as the 03 Cobras iron block is a beefed up version of the GT block. Its still a 4.6 style block, just as the LS7 is generaly based on the LS1s (346CID) motor.
I never said a 4.6 was the same as a 5.4
..I said they were different so i couldnt count them.
I never said a 4.6 was the same as a 5.4
..I said they were different so i couldnt count them.
300bhp/ton
New Member
yeah, but I said 500bhp was near impossible from a 4.6, NOT a 4.6 style block. At a high specific output the 5.4 will get you a lot closer than a 4.6, but not everyone has been saying this.hotmustang331 said:I know the LS7 is different...just as the aluminum block 4.6 is different from the GTs cast iron block and the 03 cobras cast iron block is different from the GT cast iron block...does that make it not the same basic engine? My point is that the LS7 is essentially the same motor as the LS1...just BEFFED WAY UP. Just as the 03 Cobras iron block is a beefed up version of the GT block. Its still a 4.6 style block, just as the LS7 is generaly based on the LS1s (346CID) motor.
I never said a 4.6 was the same as a 5.4
As for the Ls blocks, well they are quite different in many respect.
Sure you can make an LS1 produce the same numbers as the LS6, even up the CR swap the cam over and such.
But in the case of the LS6 the block is different, it is stronger and has better oil ways and a few other changes. All allowing it to take more punishment, I'm sure this was done so they had a better basis for the C5R. The Ls1 block basically won't have hacked it. The LS7 is very different again, sure you can up the ci of a ls1 to 427ci but it ain't an LS7.
Same goes for the mod engines, I'm sure there are subtle differences on the different blocks apart from just the obvious cast iron or aluminium.
hotmustang331
Active Member
Err ok...I know the LS7 is NOT an LS1, the LS2 is NOT an LS1...there are differences from the factory. Im saying that they are the same GENERAL design with some differences, but its essentailly a beefed up LS1...although its not. You know what I mean? My main point is that he can get a BB/stroker 324 motor and it would be a replacement engine...same size block and all. It is a route to getting there with a 4.6 since the aluminum block was originally a 4.6. Same with stroking an LS1 into 427CID...basically the same thing as an LS7 yet its still an LS1. I may have missworded, you cannot call an LS7 an LS1, as its not EXACTLY the same engine...I knew there were block differences, but my statements were CID vs CID capability only.....meaning you can make an LS1 into an LS7 (but not really...just that it would also have 427CID)...but the blocks and other little things would be different, which I dont consider a big deal.
Or, just buy a salvage triton v-10, and put 11 to 1 forged pistons and h beam rods..
Same bore and stroke as a 5.4, just 2 more cyl. , and the salvage engines go on ebay all day for around 1k lpus shipping...
Plus would be quite nasty sounding..
A sohc gt computer would run it, and all you would need is a tune to get to 5.
L.
Same bore and stroke as a 5.4, just 2 more cyl. , and the salvage engines go on ebay all day for around 1k lpus shipping...
Plus would be quite nasty sounding..
A sohc gt computer would run it, and all you would need is a tune to get to 5.
L.
Possable? Yes. Realistic? No.
I read an artical in MM&FF where they made 490 hp. Every part was avaliable except the intake manifold. The intake was huge. It was in the shape of a U and featured two Throttle bodys. With the huge runner length and diameter the intake volocity were good for the Cam and head combination. Plus with the 11 to 1 compression and good tuning it was possable.
As for the octain I have no idea.
SHM makes a 400hp crate 2v I think.
I read an artical in MM&FF where they made 490 hp. Every part was avaliable except the intake manifold. The intake was huge. It was in the shape of a U and featured two Throttle bodys. With the huge runner length and diameter the intake volocity were good for the Cam and head combination. Plus with the 11 to 1 compression and good tuning it was possable.
As for the octain I have no idea.
SHM makes a 400hp crate 2v I think.
billfisher
Active Member
300bhp/ton said:
you are wrong. the easiest way is 5.4L 4v. 500bhp is easy, and there are plenty doing it. with the claimed flow livernois is getting from 3v(282cfm) i will reach it too. you have no idea what you are talking about. A MOD 358 has as many cubes as your "touched by god" LS. more and more are being built. ps. they turn 8200rpm with rods/pistons.
billfisher
Active Member
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