i've been meaning to ask this for a while now but keep forgetting. when i was the "bone yard" a couple of weeks ago there was an older t-bird that had a, if i read the label on the motor correctly, a 400ci motor. what's the scoop on those motors? are they the same dimensions as a 351? i have yet to read anything on here where they are being used in mustangs. are they hard to get parts for? anyone know anything about them? just thinking back, i think the sticker actually said 351M/400 Family or something like that???? not 100% sure anymore, i waited too long to ask about this motor.
400 or 351
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400 cleveland (modified)
this statement is SO far from the truth it scares me..
my name is Rowdy, a friend of Fastdriver's. we met in iraq and chatted engines every night instead of fighting bad guys..
anyway, the cleveland has a 9.2" deck height with just a tad under 2 3/4" main bearings. the winsdor has a 9.5" deck with 3" bearings.
they both have a 4" bore and 3.5" stroke. the windsor has large bearings, so it has more resistance than the cleveland for higher revs. of course, most know about the canted valve design of the cleveland and its superior flow to anything ever made (except maybe boss 429 heads or 426 hemi's, but they arent small block).
introduce the ford 400. the 400 shares the cleveland design with the front timing chain and whatnot and bolting accessories. there are 2 main differencs. the 400 uses the 3" bearing as does the windsor, but the block was redisigned and extended to the 10.3" deck height as the 460 big block is. so u get small block bore with big block stroke capabilities. tim myers makes (or distributes) 4.250 stroke kits for these engines making a 434 stroker. they are topped with cleveland heads, so you have a WIDE selection of HIGH flowing heads.
now, here is the kicker. presently, there are only a couple of intakes made for this beast...luckily, there is a small adapter...
Intake Adapters
that allows you to bolt any (within reason i guess) 351 WINDSOR intake to this stroker beast. this means the ground stomping torque of a 4.25" stroker combined with the smooth idle and torque ranges found with fuel injection.
another difference between this block and other small blocks is the fact it has its own style engine mounts AND it bolts to big block transmissions. they were heavy duty and used the c6 extensively in the big station wagons and trucks.
parts are a little pricy, but alot of companies are starting to come back to making cleveland parts. here is another thing about them, they use the same distributor as the big block.
reason they were considered dogs was ford dropped the compression and went through tough times with their emmissions back then and the motor couldnt run with 8:1 and smog heads.
now, about the head style.
if you want alot of knocking and pinging, the standard 2v (american) head is there. they came with 2.05 intake and narrow cross section in the intake runners, which wasnt bad...but they had crappy combustion chamber design. the 4v (302 boss or 351 c HO and CJ jet) head has outstanding combustion chamber (quench) but they came with 2.19 intake valves and the ports are SO large, they really support 408 stroker motors better cause they can suck a volkswagon down the intake.
we stopped building the cleveland in 74 with the 351m/400 running till around 80 i think, but australia didnt stop production until WAY later and they redesigned the head locally to take merge the 2 designs...closed chamber quench chambers, AND the 2v intake runners. there are web sites i can show you that sell australian 2v heads (great cross sectional area in the runners, closed quench chambers, canted valves and 2.05 intake/1.65 exhaust valves) for like $500 USD a pair. they are cast iron and look bone stock but provide MASSIVE low end torque. put them under the grinding wheel and clean em up a lil (or more as desired) and watch them perk up.
the 400 uses cleveland heads, pan and exhaust, big block distributor (same as 460), so if u wanna build a nice long stroke for the mustang, 4.25 stroke gets filled REALLY freaking fast through cleveland heads, ESPECIALLY under a moderate 5 lbs of boost.
the 400 ford is in NO WAY a slouch. my dad and i built on back in 84 i think with flat tops, a good cam and good dual plane intake/exhaust and stuck it in his 80 bronco. in 4 wheel drive, we smoked all 4 tires quite a few feet before the big 35's bit into the pavement and lunged forward (breaking our necks in the process..i just got out of the cast 2 weeks ago..lol)
think about what you want..long stroke for ass stompin torque or shorter stroke and smaller bearings for high revs?
you can build a nice stroker out of the 351c block or the 400m block. the 400 m would require the intake adaptor, but would allow you the use of SEVERAL thousand intake choices from the 351 windsor so all your factory fuel injection could "in theory" bolt right up (minor porting required to match the intake-head) and all the technology in distributor design will modernize this engine (when stolen from the 460).
now, you can build a windsor for cheaper, but if u tried to match the stroke, your rod ratio would be on the ragged edge. the 400 has .800" taller decks which swallow stroker cranks and still leave you with a good ratio so no unneccessary strain on the side of the block (wasted torque and wear).
back in the mid evil times, one of the last and best swords ever made was a "hand and 1/2" sword. it had the balanced blade of the long sword but the hilt of a 2 handed sword...and it was called the "bastard sword". well, i think this engine fits that bill.
you want a budget truck engine or muscle car pusher? get that 400 block, bore to 4.030 to unshroud the valves, buy the 351 2v aussie heads for $500 and clean em up, stroke it to a 434 with tim myers help and fuel inject it through a windsor intake. you would have great intake charge, 2.05X1.65 canted vlavles, 4.25 stroke, fuel injection and computer programming.
hell, put a nice thump cam or some low revvin monster torque cam and hold on. you wanna put an ati procharger on it? lord help u if u do...
change to a 114 lsa cam with stout duration to take advantage of the cleveland head, throw a centrifugal or turbo on it to fill the cylinders at high revs and itll idle like stock, but have gobs of power in reserve.
all this power, and it only weights 125 lbs more than a 302.
(i forgot, it uses the cleveland cam and lifters i am pretty sure)
i hope this info helps make a decision. if not, you are informed on some forgotten ford history. =)
this statement is SO far from the truth it scares me..
my name is Rowdy, a friend of Fastdriver's. we met in iraq and chatted engines every night instead of fighting bad guys..
anyway, the cleveland has a 9.2" deck height with just a tad under 2 3/4" main bearings. the winsdor has a 9.5" deck with 3" bearings.
they both have a 4" bore and 3.5" stroke. the windsor has large bearings, so it has more resistance than the cleveland for higher revs. of course, most know about the canted valve design of the cleveland and its superior flow to anything ever made (except maybe boss 429 heads or 426 hemi's, but they arent small block).
introduce the ford 400. the 400 shares the cleveland design with the front timing chain and whatnot and bolting accessories. there are 2 main differencs. the 400 uses the 3" bearing as does the windsor, but the block was redisigned and extended to the 10.3" deck height as the 460 big block is. so u get small block bore with big block stroke capabilities. tim myers makes (or distributes) 4.250 stroke kits for these engines making a 434 stroker. they are topped with cleveland heads, so you have a WIDE selection of HIGH flowing heads.
now, here is the kicker. presently, there are only a couple of intakes made for this beast...luckily, there is a small adapter...
Intake Adapters
that allows you to bolt any (within reason i guess) 351 WINDSOR intake to this stroker beast. this means the ground stomping torque of a 4.25" stroker combined with the smooth idle and torque ranges found with fuel injection.
another difference between this block and other small blocks is the fact it has its own style engine mounts AND it bolts to big block transmissions. they were heavy duty and used the c6 extensively in the big station wagons and trucks.
parts are a little pricy, but alot of companies are starting to come back to making cleveland parts. here is another thing about them, they use the same distributor as the big block.
reason they were considered dogs was ford dropped the compression and went through tough times with their emmissions back then and the motor couldnt run with 8:1 and smog heads.
now, about the head style.
if you want alot of knocking and pinging, the standard 2v (american) head is there. they came with 2.05 intake and narrow cross section in the intake runners, which wasnt bad...but they had crappy combustion chamber design. the 4v (302 boss or 351 c HO and CJ jet) head has outstanding combustion chamber (quench) but they came with 2.19 intake valves and the ports are SO large, they really support 408 stroker motors better cause they can suck a volkswagon down the intake.
we stopped building the cleveland in 74 with the 351m/400 running till around 80 i think, but australia didnt stop production until WAY later and they redesigned the head locally to take merge the 2 designs...closed chamber quench chambers, AND the 2v intake runners. there are web sites i can show you that sell australian 2v heads (great cross sectional area in the runners, closed quench chambers, canted valves and 2.05 intake/1.65 exhaust valves) for like $500 USD a pair. they are cast iron and look bone stock but provide MASSIVE low end torque. put them under the grinding wheel and clean em up a lil (or more as desired) and watch them perk up.
the 400 uses cleveland heads, pan and exhaust, big block distributor (same as 460), so if u wanna build a nice long stroke for the mustang, 4.25 stroke gets filled REALLY freaking fast through cleveland heads, ESPECIALLY under a moderate 5 lbs of boost.
the 400 ford is in NO WAY a slouch. my dad and i built on back in 84 i think with flat tops, a good cam and good dual plane intake/exhaust and stuck it in his 80 bronco. in 4 wheel drive, we smoked all 4 tires quite a few feet before the big 35's bit into the pavement and lunged forward (breaking our necks in the process..i just got out of the cast 2 weeks ago..lol)
think about what you want..long stroke for ass stompin torque or shorter stroke and smaller bearings for high revs?
you can build a nice stroker out of the 351c block or the 400m block. the 400 m would require the intake adaptor, but would allow you the use of SEVERAL thousand intake choices from the 351 windsor so all your factory fuel injection could "in theory" bolt right up (minor porting required to match the intake-head) and all the technology in distributor design will modernize this engine (when stolen from the 460).
now, you can build a windsor for cheaper, but if u tried to match the stroke, your rod ratio would be on the ragged edge. the 400 has .800" taller decks which swallow stroker cranks and still leave you with a good ratio so no unneccessary strain on the side of the block (wasted torque and wear).
back in the mid evil times, one of the last and best swords ever made was a "hand and 1/2" sword. it had the balanced blade of the long sword but the hilt of a 2 handed sword...and it was called the "bastard sword". well, i think this engine fits that bill.
you want a budget truck engine or muscle car pusher? get that 400 block, bore to 4.030 to unshroud the valves, buy the 351 2v aussie heads for $500 and clean em up, stroke it to a 434 with tim myers help and fuel inject it through a windsor intake. you would have great intake charge, 2.05X1.65 canted vlavles, 4.25 stroke, fuel injection and computer programming.
hell, put a nice thump cam or some low revvin monster torque cam and hold on. you wanna put an ati procharger on it? lord help u if u do...
change to a 114 lsa cam with stout duration to take advantage of the cleveland head, throw a centrifugal or turbo on it to fill the cylinders at high revs and itll idle like stock, but have gobs of power in reserve.
all this power, and it only weights 125 lbs more than a 302.
(i forgot, it uses the cleveland cam and lifters i am pretty sure)
i hope this info helps make a decision. if not, you are informed on some forgotten ford history. =)
1991notchbackLX
Active Member
^^Check these ariticles out about the 400 M boat anchor
How We Got Over 500hp from Ford's 400M Engine - Hot Rod Magazine
Installing A 400M Short-Block Into A 351 Cleveland Stroker Engine - Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords Magazine
How We Got Over 500hp from Ford's 400M Engine - Hot Rod Magazine
Installing A 400M Short-Block Into A 351 Cleveland Stroker Engine - Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords Magazine
fastdriver......all i can say is WOW
thank you for the GREAT info!! i printed your response so i can read it several times. the thing that catches my attention right away is the deck height. with that thing even fit under the hood of a foxbody?? with an extra inch of deck height, it seems like there might a big issue of getting it to fit? i'm in the process of reading the articles that mercurycapri posted so i do apologize if this question is answered somewhere in there.
thanx again for the post and i would be expecting a PM from in the very near future regarding this topc
from what i've read so far this could be a cool motor to build, if for no other reason than almost nobody else has one. a big downfall to that build would be that....nobody else has one......hmmmmmmmmm
thank you for the GREAT info!! i printed your response so i can read it several times. the thing that catches my attention right away is the deck height. with that thing even fit under the hood of a foxbody?? with an extra inch of deck height, it seems like there might a big issue of getting it to fit? i'm in the process of reading the articles that mercurycapri posted so i do apologize if this question is answered somewhere in there.
thanx again for the post and i would be expecting a PM from in the very near future regarding this topc
from what i've read so far this could be a cool motor to build, if for no other reason than almost nobody else has one. a big downfall to that build would be that....nobody else has one......hmmmmmmmmm
another question.....is the 351M and the 400 the exact same engine other than having a different stroke/crank? so if i decide to go ahead with this motor, it won't matter which one it is correct since i'll most likely end up stroking it anyway?
found the answer to this question in the article......"If you find a good 351M, that can work, too. You will just need to find a 400 crank"
found the answer to this question in the article......"If you find a good 351M, that can work, too. You will just need to find a 400 crank"
Man, all I can take credit for it getting the right guy to chime in with his thoughts. When I saw the thread, I remembered all the conversations we'd had about the 351C and the 400M engines. Rowdy is an engine fanatic, and particularly loves the one off builds with cleveland style heads. He would be an invaluable resource in a project like this.
If/when you shoot me an email, I'll forward it along with your email address to him so he can help you. I wish he'd get an account here, though. The discussion and build would be valuable to have in the archives.
Chris
If/when you shoot me an email, I'll forward it along with your email address to him so he can help you. I wish he'd get an account here, though. The discussion and build would be valuable to have in the archives.
Chris
i just read the first article and DAMN there would be a lot of work on putting this thing together. the article specifically mentioned not wanting to use heads from australia. not sure why, but they chose to use $1800 heads from edelbrock. the end of the article talks briefly about how hard it will be to make it fit into vehicle that is not already set up for a big block. i'd also need a different tranny. things are not looking good for a 400 build 
the last page shows what they spent on the build up.....almost $7000! OUCH!
the last page shows what they spent on the build up.....almost $7000! OUCH!
Rowdy, before you submit the message, it's usually best to copy (CTRL + C) the message so that if it's lost you can simply paste it from your clipboard. Sometimes if I'm writing a long one, I'll type it up in word, which also lets me check my grammar/spelling before I post, but more importantly, it is independent of your internet program.
Chris
Chris
SUX about your response!!!!! if it has anything even close to your first response i'm sure it's something worth reading.
as i was reading through the first atricle i was thinking......this explains why nobody uses this motor for a build! i don't know how long ago those articles were written so maybe there are pieces/parts available now that were not available then. i'll wait to read your response before i make any final decisions but the physical size of the motor and the fact that it's set up for BBF transmissions doesn't seem to lend itself to putting it into a foxbody.
if this motor would not cost a fortune to build and would actually fit my car, i'd SERIOUSLY consider running it just to have something a little different.
the end of the article talks briefly about how hard it will be to make it fit into vehicle that is not already set up for a big block. i'd also need a different tranny. things are not looking good for a 400 build
the last page shows what they spent on the build up.....almost $7000! OUCH!
welcom to the world of cars, if you build anthing with alot of HP, your gonna have to change everything at one point, the trick is trying to just change it ONCE, still havent figured that one out myself.
that's my goal is to build it properly the first time. pretty much everything is getting pulled out of the car and i'm trying to replace it with the "good stuff". i realize there will be complications and things i didn't think about ahead of time, but if i can keep them to a minimum i'll keep my sanity just a bit longer.
the 400, from what i can find, has a square bore/stroke which i'm told is good. this is the reason i'm leaing towards the 408 instead of the 427 stroker. the 427 has an undersquare (bore is smaller than stroke) which is supposedly bad. if you can get an oversquare bore/stroke, that is supposedly the best combination.
the 400, from what i can find, has a square bore/stroke which i'm told is good. this is the reason i'm leaing towards the 408 instead of the 427 stroker. the 427 has an undersquare (bore is smaller than stroke) which is supposedly bad. if you can get an oversquare bore/stroke, that is supposedly the best combination.
ok, update..let me try to repost something without loosing it this time and get it in before i go to iraq.
the 400/351m block is the length of a small block, so it fits length wise where a small block will.
1. if you have a windsor, change the mounts to a big block and cowl hood or motor plate
2. if you run a stick, then change the bell housing and problem solved if not, powerglide..
3. there are kits to run a 460 in a fox body all day long. get the motor plate for this and bolt it to the 400. this will set it for any clearance you need and the big block is the mounts required
4. they make cleveland/fox body oil pans/k members all day..you'll need one of these.
5. the weight diff is not much of an issue, so the springs wont need to be touched.
6. headers are cleveland and readily available
7. cams are cleveland and all over the place
it all depends on what you want. clevors are easy to build. if you wanna be different and kewl (in my book), you can build a 400 for cheep and drop in a mustang. are you goin to run stock motor? power adder? stroke monster? high revs? low rpm neck breaker?
400 Ford: Peformance From Another Aftermarket
outstanding 400 build up for cheep contradicting that other article posted.
assuming you were going to build a stroker whatever to begin with, then the price of the 4.25 stroker for the 400 is moot. heads prices are comparible to other after factory heads but flow MUCH, MUCH more. that is unless you wanna go roller..then itll get a tad pricy.
YouTube - 400 Ford stroker by TMeyer Inc.
488hp 534tq from 2500-5700 on descent build..nothing too crazy.
heads-
CHI makes heads that flow from low (high torque 2bbl heads) to 400 cfm (jon kaase c400's). they have matching intakes and make matching intakes for the 400 as well. for around $1700 a set (plus more for intake) you can have kick ass flow from carb to valve to match your build.
AFD makes really nice cleveland heads
edelbrock makes them,
RHS
2 bbl aussie cleveland for monster torque (iron..use lower compression).
on and on.
here is a thought. build a torquer motor. 434 plus the aussie heads. youll prolly break 600 ft lbs with good windsor fuel inj, one of those thumpr hyd roller cams and a ram air hood.
distributor- same as 460 as stated before
intakes-
AP-34 Intake Adapter Kit
this is for the windsor intake on the 400 so you can do normal fuel inj without worry
or, you can go to numerous companies now who make intakes for the 400. high revs, low end torque..your choice.
there are several companies who make the oil pan to fit a fox body along with the k member.
oil pan, distributor, bell housing, cleveland headers, stroker kit, intake, motor plate, head selection..i think we have covered the basics of engine building.
transmission...if you wanna go fast, you should consider switching to a power glide anyway. trust me, if you throw a procharger or turbo setup on a 434 stroker, you will go fast...glides help get all that to ground without breaking too much traction. and when the only thoughts going through your head are..OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG...you forget to shift
if you are not running a blower, this will make enough power for 2 cars as is.
engine-$150
aussie heads-$500
machine work-same as the rest
stroker- same as the rest
retro roller cam- pricy, but worth it
fuel injection intake-swiped from 351w
intake adapter-$200
cleveland headers- not much more than the rest if any
you will have a stock looking engine (looks like a cleveland), but itll give you whiplash
or*...
if you want high revs and money isnt TOO much an issue..there is a block i am highly interested. its another mutt engine like the 400, but mixes cleveland and windsor components/strengths and weaknesses.
rpm maxx makes a 351w block that is really reinforced, but uses the 351c crank journal bearing size. so instead of the 3", you can have a more rev friendly 2.75"
also, it is available in 4.125 phat bore. i think dart makes one of these too.
you can build a clevor out of this with about 470 cubic inch (with the same stroke) and the cleveland heads. basically, its a windsor block. so you would have to modify the cleveland heads to fit the W, then adapt the intake..but a high revvin 470? ouch.
i have been thinking of getting a 72 ranchero or gran torino and building a 400 stroker setup for a while.
with the ati procharger (f3 maybe) and the powerjection III throttle body...
we're talkin NAS-T...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73Q8cSpEbs
the 400/351m block is the length of a small block, so it fits length wise where a small block will.
1. if you have a windsor, change the mounts to a big block and cowl hood or motor plate
2. if you run a stick, then change the bell housing and problem solved if not, powerglide..
3. there are kits to run a 460 in a fox body all day long. get the motor plate for this and bolt it to the 400. this will set it for any clearance you need and the big block is the mounts required
4. they make cleveland/fox body oil pans/k members all day..you'll need one of these.
5. the weight diff is not much of an issue, so the springs wont need to be touched.
6. headers are cleveland and readily available
7. cams are cleveland and all over the place
it all depends on what you want. clevors are easy to build. if you wanna be different and kewl (in my book), you can build a 400 for cheep and drop in a mustang. are you goin to run stock motor? power adder? stroke monster? high revs? low rpm neck breaker?
400 Ford: Peformance From Another Aftermarket
outstanding 400 build up for cheep contradicting that other article posted.
assuming you were going to build a stroker whatever to begin with, then the price of the 4.25 stroker for the 400 is moot. heads prices are comparible to other after factory heads but flow MUCH, MUCH more. that is unless you wanna go roller..then itll get a tad pricy.
YouTube - 400 Ford stroker by TMeyer Inc.
488hp 534tq from 2500-5700 on descent build..nothing too crazy.
heads-
CHI makes heads that flow from low (high torque 2bbl heads) to 400 cfm (jon kaase c400's). they have matching intakes and make matching intakes for the 400 as well. for around $1700 a set (plus more for intake) you can have kick ass flow from carb to valve to match your build.
AFD makes really nice cleveland heads
edelbrock makes them,
RHS
2 bbl aussie cleveland for monster torque (iron..use lower compression).
on and on.
here is a thought. build a torquer motor. 434 plus the aussie heads. youll prolly break 600 ft lbs with good windsor fuel inj, one of those thumpr hyd roller cams and a ram air hood.
distributor- same as 460 as stated before
intakes-
AP-34 Intake Adapter Kit
this is for the windsor intake on the 400 so you can do normal fuel inj without worry
or, you can go to numerous companies now who make intakes for the 400. high revs, low end torque..your choice.
there are several companies who make the oil pan to fit a fox body along with the k member.
oil pan, distributor, bell housing, cleveland headers, stroker kit, intake, motor plate, head selection..i think we have covered the basics of engine building.
transmission...if you wanna go fast, you should consider switching to a power glide anyway. trust me, if you throw a procharger or turbo setup on a 434 stroker, you will go fast...glides help get all that to ground without breaking too much traction. and when the only thoughts going through your head are..OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG...you forget to shift
if you are not running a blower, this will make enough power for 2 cars as is.
engine-$150
aussie heads-$500
machine work-same as the rest
stroker- same as the rest
retro roller cam- pricy, but worth it
fuel injection intake-swiped from 351w
intake adapter-$200
cleveland headers- not much more than the rest if any
you will have a stock looking engine (looks like a cleveland), but itll give you whiplash
or*...
if you want high revs and money isnt TOO much an issue..there is a block i am highly interested. its another mutt engine like the 400, but mixes cleveland and windsor components/strengths and weaknesses.
rpm maxx makes a 351w block that is really reinforced, but uses the 351c crank journal bearing size. so instead of the 3", you can have a more rev friendly 2.75"
also, it is available in 4.125 phat bore. i think dart makes one of these too.
you can build a clevor out of this with about 470 cubic inch (with the same stroke) and the cleveland heads. basically, its a windsor block. so you would have to modify the cleveland heads to fit the W, then adapt the intake..but a high revvin 470? ouch.
i have been thinking of getting a 72 ranchero or gran torino and building a 400 stroker setup for a while.
with the ati procharger (f3 maybe) and the powerjection III throttle body...
we're talkin NAS-T...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73Q8cSpEbs
fiveohwblow
Official Member
- Jul 21, 2005
- 2,169
- 145
- 135
fiveohwblow
Official Member
- Jul 21, 2005
- 2,169
- 145
- 135
