Is the 302 too out of date? Obsolete? Should the sn95 guys bail?

[83-88T-Bird Guy]

....If the new car blues are still getting to you and you have a h/c/i + blower car then go out and go big (someone already mentioned this already). I've seen nasty mean 347-363 with a standard blower kit (pullied) reaching 600+rwhp easy. At that point (and if it is a street car) main issues are traction so don't expect a fresh off the showroom floor mustang with minor boltons that is going to get close to you. Whats a new shelby cost these days..something like $60+K? Can you imagine what 1/3 of that amount of money can do for your 302?

So to the original question..should the sn95 guys bail..they can, but everyone has their reasons, but remember this more speed = the ability to dig deeper into your wallet. It doesn't matter if you go with a new stang or keep modding your current one...speed costs and from what I can see it is cheaper to mod what you have instead of going ahead and buying a new car.

I agree.

Every time a new model vehicle comes out, I wonder what it would be like to be the first on the block with one. Then, after that model has been out about 2 years and everyone has one, the newness wears off.

Yes, it will always be cheaper to make more power with a used car than a new one.

 

[Pokageek]

True. There's always a new car. what are u going to do, keep buying new cars? Ok, mod the new ones and so you have bought the new mustang for 30,000+ and then spend $600 on an exhaust that gets you 14 more HP. NOw the chevy motors are underpowered because the new 5.0 just came out with a ton more HP than them.

Personally, I would have bought a 2011 but I still like my bodystyle of stang. It really is a nice looking car..and get this, people think its new..like a new version. Many many many people dont mod these cars anyway and they dont know a new one from an old one. Not everyone is so into cars.

Last of all, dont let your mind run away with you...

1st..u want a MUSTANG, not a Chevy whatever... You dont want to spend a lot of money at one time but you want the car now. You love the sound, the looks, the drive of the car.
THEN..u think its cool to have an edge on other sn95's by adding a CAI or a catback.
THEN.. you set you aim for higher HP to get the power that v8 can really make and do a H/C/I.
THEN.. your happy you can keep up with those out-dated lsx's and NEW cars or maybe have an edge on them with the lighter weight and gears..
THEN.. you start thinking about whipping HIGH $$$ cars and modded rods and add a blower or nitrous or 351w (true to Ford) or dart and replace the whole drive-train.

Its at this level like you say cobramanphil - that the $$$ gets up there for the smallest of mods because you have to beef up other areas of the car. You have to decide how much you like the car to begin with and decide how far into it you are going to go.

 

[nmcgrawj]

oh, boy ... here we go again ...

Had to throw that in there to get a reaction outta people LOL


Wasnt much point of this thread to begin with

 

[revhead347]

I mean how much power do you need?

I believe my Mustang needs about 85hp to safely propel it around town. I would like to have 1000rwhp out of it. But that's just my goal for a streetcar.

Kurt

 

[cantbuytime]

i know this is old but gotta throw in my .02

I honestly have been a hardcore Bowtie rider for 12 years, even though I worked for ford for 4 years..

I had a fox in highschool that ran mid 12's and got tired of being blown out by chevy so i jumped over to the bowtie wagon. i have had more cars then a used car salesman.. But all were Hot rods(as u put it).. I liked having a bowtie and spankin the blue oval all day for about half the price..

My last 700hp toy.. Almost went LS1 but went 502 in it.
http://s580.photobucket.com/albums/ss241/cantbuytime/TRUCK/?action=view&current=tc88_92.flv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVp4yLHxoaI

When i got rid of my gas hogg , i had the choice of LS1Trans-Am or SS, or a SN95 style stang..I didnt go LS1 cause i didnt wanna be the norm or spend the 20k to get the so called Batmobile to the speed i wanted. Plus the electronics and all the other BS.. the price was the driving factor..

5.0 motors are not obsolete, just old.. Easier to work on, cheaper then anything new as far as modding.. yes a 302 is more expensive then a 350 on mods, but come on this the blue oval we are talking about.. less cubes but a nicer car in my opinion.. And yes anyone buying a stock SN95 to smoke a stock LS1 equipped ride, needs a nut check..

I bought the 5.0 for many reasons stated so far:
1. reminds me of my youth
2. cheaper to mod(then newer cars)
3. Nicer car and better platform to work with
4. Its more fun spankin a LS1 bowtie with a blue oval thats cubicly inclined
5. My 95 is just sex
6. 302 aftermarket blocks are not too expensive
7. price$$$$$$$$

Now this #6.. you people need to stop griping about the inadequate structure of a stock 302, break down and buy a $1,300 dart block and get your 700+rwhp with all the boost you want.. i pitty the fool in the ride next to me with a LS1 or modular motor..

I know of 5 different 302 dart blocks producing 800 to 1300 hp.. Its very possible..

i have seen a 94 stang 500rwhp stock bottom end and H/I with 7psi, he got 50k miles out of it before he broke a main..

If you feel its time to get on the chevy wagon then by all means go ahead and take my old spot.. If you want to buy a car that cost 3 to 5 times the price of a 95 5.0 well go ahead, but when i am done with my 8k upgrade i should have far more then 600hp..

My opinion is pick a car and engine combo, then ride or die or ride till you die.. But why doubt your own ride?? i know my measly 226rwhp is crap right now but this time next year it will 3 to 4 times that output making all the bowties cry..

Yeah any fool can add an air filter and a programmer to a newer car and smoke us but real hot rodders build theres from the ground up and dont whine about the other motors being better.. this is a competition and always has been. Expect newer cars to keep improving..

I know, no replacement for displacement. whatever... you take that with a grain of salt.. Why go 351? so you can end up at the peak hp threshold of that block too, more weight, oh and thats not staying to true to the magic that is a 5.0 stang..

play the hand your delt or fold em and get off the table..I am not going to bail on the Blue Oval(the first real hot rod), I am in this army now- I have chosen my side, my weapon and my strategy.

 

[1987LXragtop]

glad you unburied this thread. its the first ive read all the way through in awhile. Yeah its probably out of date but is so easy to work on. Flat head fords are out of date but street rodders still put em in 32s.
I could have stuck with my VW 16vT and smoked all of ya. 300whp in an 1800lb car is great but no one looks at a mkII Jetta and goes "ooo i gotta have that"
Ive had em all GTO, Camaro, Mustang, Monte Carlo...
I love the sound of a v8 and I love my 5.0 - 'nuff said


edit: I understand Im a fox guy in the sn95 area but I love a good debate

 

[rj95svt]

Is the 5.0 out of date sure in stock form but what do you expect?

Has anyone actually looked at the LSx engines? I swear it looks as though chevy took fords best ideas of the windsor engines and built upon them and made a truly strong engine. The LSx heads will actually nearly bolt on a SBF. They sure as hell get closer to bolting on a SBF than a old school SBC.

Yes we are outgunned stock but alot of the shortcomings of the SBF can be overcome but it obviously cost money.

1, 346ci vs 302 is obviously no comparison a 347 stroker kit is needed to overcome the ci's

2, heads 15 degree (LS1) vs 20 degree (SBF) There are several good SBF heads that have revised valve placement which helps to overcome the head advantage the LS engines have. TFS TW's for instance have 15 degree intake valves and 17 degree exhaust valves. The 190cc fast as cast heads have ports that are comparable in size to the ls heads (TW heads have shorter intake ports which make the 190cc ports more comparable to the size of victor jr's than AFR 185's).

3, The LS stock intake design is much better than the 5.0's due to the fact they didn't have to bend the ports around the distributor. I personally like a victor jr carb style intakes better than the 5.0 efi style intakes. I believe the smooth simple bends have a big advantage over the long runners and complicated twists and turns of the efi intakes although there are some pretty decent efi intakes.

4, Everyone says " A sbf needs a bigger cam than a LS1 to compete with the hp of the LS1's and they will not have near as good of driveability" This can be overcome if you use larger better flowing cyl. heads. A larger head doesn't need a huge higher duration cam to make power. Big heads small cam. That is what both chevy and dodge are doing with their latest pushrod offerings.

I know it takes a good bit but the engine is only outdated cause ford never tried to improve upon it and bring it into the 21st century. All they done was build the explorer 5.0's which was just a patch job to get buy until the explorer got redesigned.

If ford really wanted to compete with pushrod motors an aluminum variant of the cleveland headed windsor with a stronger deep skirted cross bolted block could have been the king pushrod small blocks but ford chose to go in another direction.

 

[95Vert383AOD]

So is the major advantage of the new 5.0 over the old 5.0 cylinder filling?? You know variable 4 valves over 2 valves and 4 cams over 2 cams?

Doesn't the new motors have alot higher of a compression as well? Big question is will the new motor like boost like the lower compression older 302s?

I look at it like this....

Ford finally built the new stang with performance parts from the factory!!! thats good. Still i think the largest performance advantage is the fact that the new motor has more valves. (much better cyl. filling) If a company like Arao/ Dominion actually got their **** together with 32v sbf heads i dont think it would be an issue.

New mustang with a 5.0 (performance maxed from ford) is what 410 at the crank??? and a older pushrod is round 300 at the wheels if you build it for performance? Whats that a 50hp difference because one engine has better valves? It's not as bad as what folks are making it out to be!!!! really

I would be scared if Ford brought back the 5.8 and started tossing 4 cams on it to make it 600hp out the box. Which may happen. Remember when ford redesigns their engines they usually make a car and a truck engine. like the 302/351 and the 4.6/5.4.

I would hold out to see what the new EFI trucks get!!! I feel that would be a much more fun swap!!!

REMEMBER 410 ADVERTISED AT THE CRANK ISN'T wHATS AT THE WHEELS.

 

[cjrpony]

Sure the 5.0 is out of date, but I really don't care. So are 60's muscle cars but people still love them too. Out of date doesn't mean bad! Just as alot of others have said, it is still very easy too work on, and relatively cheap to get parts for. I know my car is not the fastest and never will be, but it never fails to put a big smile on my face when I fire it up and that is all that really matters to me. My car has several things still going for it: It's still looks good, it' still very strong, And its paid for! I won't be bailing anytime soon, unless my wife finally lets me buy a Factory Five roadster (fat chance) But even that would still be old school!

 

[rj95svt]

So is the major advantage of the new 5.0 over the old 5.0 cylinder filling?? You know variable 4 valves over 2 valves and 4 cams over 2 cams?

Doesn't the new motors have alot higher of a compression as well? Big question is will the new motor like boost like the lower compression older 302s?

I look at it like this....

Ford finally built the new stang with performance parts from the factory!!! thats good. Still i think the largest performance advantage is the fact that the new motor has more valves. (much better cyl. filling) If a company like Arao/ Dominion actually got their **** together with 32v sbf heads i dont think it would be an issue.

New mustang with a 5.0 (performance maxed from ford) is what 410 at the crank??? and a older pushrod is round 300 at the wheels if you build it for performance? Whats that a 50hp difference because one engine has better valves? It's not as bad as what folks are making it out to be!!!! really

I would be scared if Ford brought back the 5.8 and started tossing 4 cams on it to make it 600hp out the box. Which may happen. Remember when ford redesigns their engines they usually make a car and a truck engine. like the 302/351 and the 4.6/5.4.

I would hold out to see what the new EFI trucks get!!! I feel that would be a much more fun swap!!!

REMEMBER 410 ADVERTISED AT THE CRANK ISN'T wHATS AT THE WHEELS.

Ford has already introduced the boss 6.2 sohc. 417 IIRC hp on regular fuel tuned for torque in a truck. It's already been 500+ crank hp with just a few mods na in the raptor baja truck. It's only 2v per cyl but they are in a hemi style chamber with pretty large valves and much better designed heads than the 2v 4.6

 

[90LX5spd]

Interesting reading. Here's a thought. Isn't this just history repeating itself. Original Hot Rods typically ran Ford Flatheads (with a few Chevy inliners mixed in) and got trounced when the new small block Chevy came out in 1955. Hard core Hot Rodders (the guys who worked on and built up there own stuff) got dealt another blow when the factory performance era hit and muscle cars flooded the streets. Now you just needed cash and you could drive out of a dealership with a hot Road Runner, Chevelle, etc. Here we are again. Any yahoo willing to pay the payment can get his hands on some brutally fast machinery nowadays while the average joe has to build his ride up. The sad part is cubic dollars wins everytime.