306 supercharged 450fwhp - Input needed

[90lxcoupe]

Why I don't know 950HP=950hp no matter how you do it BB or SB.

OK lets get this straight, you have to be the smartest shop owner ive ever seen on stangnet... saying this is basically saying that rod/stroke ratios and torque curves have nothing to do with HP. There is so much wrong with every word you have written in this thread, if you really do own a shop i feel bad for whoever has had any work done by you.

I challenge you to build two cars, on N/A one with a blower, same weight, same suspension same HP, i'd put money on the N/A car any day.

My N/A motor has made a few blower cars look really silly that had close to 100 hp more than what im running. its not how much power my motor makes, its how the motor makes the power.

 

[Manewaymja2]

Hey there, i have a stang with a built 302 (.30 Over 306) and its making 456 HP at the fly and just about 400RWHP and Torque. Its not a special build just a Stock Bottom end with (YES) Hyper Pistions and some nice heads a Comp Blower Cam and a Procharger at 8PSI SCT Tuned with some 42lb Injectors and shes hurry enough for such a cheap build up in my opinion. Car will run good high 6's low 7's on pump gas in the 1/8th. It can be done, after all the pistons are fine and will outlast the dam block thats rated to blow up at 500/550 HP give or take, so yeah the pistons personally i dont like but if its 400 to say 500 HP your looking to make i think they will hold out to the block (Forged would be good Insurance IMO for use with a Blower on Nitrous But NA should be just fine).

 

[blackened88lx]

OK lets get this straight, you have to be the smartest shop owner ive ever seen on stangnet... saying this is basically saying that rod/stroke ratios and torque curves have nothing to do with HP. There is so much wrong with every word you have written in this thread, if you really do own a shop i feel bad for whoever has had any work done by you.

I challenge you to build two cars, on N/A one with a blower, same weight, same suspension same HP, i'd put money on the N/A car any day.

My N/A motor has made a few blower cars look really silly that had close to 100 hp more than what im running. its not how much power my motor makes, its how the motor makes the power.

What he said. Really good post.

 

[ddonaca351]

Look man, here are your choices: (as I see it)

Go cheap and hope it works, some think it will... some think it wont.
(my 40 years exp says it wont, but hey... I could be wrong, it's happened before)

Spend a little more (say 1500 in parts vs 500 in parts... *bottom end only*) and KNOW that it is built to last.

My 306 has been in my 90 for 12 years and counting... it still runs just as good as the day I put her in. Why, because I did it right the first f-ing time. I didn't build some half-assed stay-together-please p.o.s. I've got about 3K in the block and about the same in the top end (including machine work). But it's taken everything I can throw at it for over a decade, and will probably still be going strong another ten years from now... because it was built right.

Can you make 500hp on a stock short block, sure... can you run it through a stock t-5 and 8.8, sure... some people have done it.
(but I'll bet ya there are a whole lott more horror stories following that advice, then there are sucess stories... think about it)

If you really want a *budget* 450hp, just throw a 347 kit in it and be done.

Best of luck to you.
Dave

***EDIT:
Look kid, here ya go... something like this (it's about as dirt cheap as it gets, but it's still decent quality parts)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-1-94055/

.

 

[blackened88lx]

Can you make 500hp on a stock short block, sure... can you run it through a stock t-5 and 8.8, sure... some people have done it.
(but I'll bet ya there are a whole lott more horror stories following that advice, then there are sucess stories... think about it)

God people really don't listen. Here's how it works. Stock t-5, input shaft or 3rd gear grenades. Stock 8.8, the axles/diff grenade. Stock Block, the BLOCK splits in half. NOT what's inside it. Sure, if you rev a stock rotating assembly to 8k it might throw a rod. But other than that, under 6500rpm, it is a lot more durable than the block itself.

 

[90lxcoupe]

God people really don't listen.Stock Block, the BLOCK splits in half. NOT what's inside it.

I really dont know what is so hard to understand about this... that is 1000% truth in that post.

WITH A SAFE TUNEUP, EVEN HYPER PISTONS WILL OUT LAST A STOCK BLOCK.

you see, this little thing called detonation is what ruins pistions/rods. But when it comes to blocks, the combination of weak walls and puny main caps causes the actual mains to "walk" around, which is what makes a block split.

Im gonna go out on a limb here and i know people are gonna disagree but if you really think about it, if you make a stock block with over 450rwhp, your better off staying standard bore. Just reallllly think here ok. Stock block is already weak... then you bore it .030 over for your 306/331/347, and all you really did was make the weakest link even weaker. When you bore a motor it effectivly gives it(the bore that is) more chance to become distorted at higher HP levels

 

[89stang1]

my vision is blurry after reading this thread lol! talk about some great reading i knew it was gonna be a good one by the title. I think what it comes down to alot of people have different opinions on how to build this motor 302, 306, 331, 347, 408, hyper pistons forged pistons stock bottom or built bottom what supercharger or turbo and what will it take to split the famous weak stock block or not so weak stock block......................i guess what it boils down to is how much money u gonna spend and how lucky u are its all good opcorn:

 

[millhouse]

Here is how I see it...

As long as the cyl walls don't have some major flaws in them, here is what I would do.

Take the block to a machine shop and have them hot-tank it and check the decks. If needs be, have them take a hair out to square things up, throw in some new cam bearings and do a quick hone on the cyl walls.....and that's it. Clean it off after you get it back and throw on some high temp rattle can blue or black paint.

Re-use the stock pistons regardless of being hyper or forged.

Re-use the stock rod's and bolts as any aftermarket rod bolt WILL require you to enlarge the rod holes for the larger studs. The stock bolts will hold up just fine.

If you feel the need to throw in some ARP main bolts....so be it. If you swap over to main studs....you WILL need an align hone of the mains. This is nothing but extra money you are pissing away on a stock block. The same goes with a main girdle.....it will do NOTHING to increase block strength or to prevent crank walking at the 6k and less rpm you are going to be running. The only thing that it "might" do is prevent the cheap stock internals from taking an exit stage left out the block when it splits. Of course....at the point do you really care about keeping the stock internals?

Throw in some quality bearings, a decent set of moly rings, some ARP head studs and some 9333 head gaskets and call it day.

A stock block is a stock block is a stock block. KISS

 

[bentley429isBAC]

Is it possible to make this thread a sticky? Its a pretty good one for newbies.

 

[2000xp8]

I had a whole bunch of crap typed out, but i shortened it down to almost nothing to keep it simple (even for me, i was almost confusing myself).

Bottom line, If you are using an SC on a stock block, invest the least amount in the shortblock as possible to make it run right. You can always compensate for not being a stroker by adding a couple pounds of boost.

Keep the stock pistons if you can, along with the rods and crank.
Add new rings, bearings, and have someone qualified balance and assemble it.
No point in blowing up an expensive rotating assembly.

For some reason people tend to think that better internals are important on a stock block 5.0, they really aren't considering they all outlast the stock block.
Maybe it's the forged 03 cobra setup that has screwed with peoples minds, just don't forget that block will put up with almost unlimited hp, so better internals in that situation can be considered an investment in your future.

 

[ddonaca351]

God people really don't listen. Here's how it works. Stock t-5, input shaft or 3rd gear grenades. Stock 8.8, the axles/diff grenade. Stock Block, the BLOCK splits in half. NOT what's inside it. Sure, if you rev a stock rotating assembly to 8k it might throw a rod. But other than that, under 6500rpm, it is a lot more durable than the block itself.

lol... yeah that's it kid, I'm the one who needs the lesson in how it works.


Guess you've never seen a broken wrist pin, broken rod cap, backsided ringlands, broken skirt, broken ring, dropped valve, crank snout sheared off, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

You i-net cowboys crack me up.

 

[blackened88lx]

Here is how I see it...

As long as the cyl walls don't have some major flaws in them, here is what I would do.

Take the block to a machine shop and have them hot-tank it and check the decks. If needs be, have them take a hair out to square things up, throw in some new cam bearings and do a quick hone on the cyl walls.....and that's it. Clean it off after you get it back and throw on some high temp rattle can blue or black paint.

Re-use the stock pistons regardless of being hyper or forged.

Re-use the stock rod's and bolts as any aftermarket rod bolt WILL require you to enlarge the rod holes for the larger studs. The stock bolts will hold up just fine.

If you feel the need to throw in some ARP main bolts....so be it. If you swap over to main studs....you WILL need an align hone of the mains. This is nothing but extra money you are pissing away on a stock block. The same goes with a main girdle.....it will do NOTHING to increase block strength or to prevent crank walking at the 6k and less rpm you are going to be running. The only thing that it "might" do is prevent the cheap stock internals from taking an exit stage left out the block when it splits. Of course....at the point do you really care about keeping the stock internals?

Throw in some quality bearings, a decent set of moly rings, some ARP head studs and some 9333 head gaskets and call it day.

A stock block is a stock block is a stock block. KISS

Thank you.

I had a whole bunch of crap typed out, but i shortened it down to almost nothing to keep it simple (even for me, i was almost confusing myself).

Bottom line, If you are using an SC on a stock block, invest the least amount in the shortblock as possible to make it run right. You can always compensate for not being a stroker by adding a couple pounds of boost.

Keep the stock pistons if you can, along with the rods and crank.
Add new rings, bearings, and have someone qualified balance and assemble it.
No point in blowing up an expensive rotating assembly.

For some reason people tend to think that better internals are important on a stock block 5.0, they really aren't considering they all outlast the stock block.
Maybe it's the forged 03 cobra setup that has screwed with peoples minds, just don't forget that block will put up with almost unlimited hp, so better internals in that situation can be considered an investment in your future.

Thank you.

lol... yeah that's it kid, I'm the one who needs the lesson in how it works.


Guess you've never seen a broken wrist pin, broken rod cap, backsided ringlands, broken skirt, broken ring, dropped valve, crank snout sheared off, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

You i-net cowboys crack me up.

Yes, because a $2k rotating assembly in a stock block will prevent all of those things from happening

So if I and these other gentlemen need a lesson on how it works... Please enlighten us on how a good rotating assembly will make a stock block 302 survive longer than a stock rotating assembly.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

I am once again reminded why I generally stay out of 5.0 Tech.

Personally, I wouldn't even bother taking the bottom end apart unless it has a lot of miles, low compression, burns oil, low oil pressure, etc. In that case I would consider new bearings and rings, but not much beyond that. Hypereutectic pistons will be fine if knock is avoided. The crank and rods will survive more than the block can.

 

[90lxcoupe]

FIRST OFF, LET ME SAY THIS, Here are the essentials for having FUN on stock stuff...

Good to decent H/C/I package, HEAD STUDS, 255 intakn pump, and a pusher pump, 42 lb injectors and a safe tune

did i mention a SAFE TUNE and HEAD STUDS?

lol... yeah that's it kid, I'm the one who needs the lesson in how it works.


Guess you've never seen a broken wrist pin, broken rod cap, backsided ringlands, broken skirt, broken ring, dropped valve, crank snout sheared off, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

You i-net cowboys crack me up.

Obviously you need a lesson if your talking about snapping the snout off of a crank, even my unborn child knows not to over tighten the blower belt, and that it need some slack. your not supposed to crank the $h%t outta them genius.

We arent talking about broken wristpins, rod caps, or muffler bearings here.. we are talking about STOCK BLOCKS BEING JUNK. There are plenty of guys going real fast on stock stuff, i know i sound like a broken record here, but 450rwhp, +/- 50 CAN be safe on a car with a GOOOOD TUUUNE-UP.

I had a stock bottom end on my old novi 2000 setup, it made 480 rwhp at 5600 RPM's, then blew a head gasket, the power was still climbing, and this was on a baseline pull, with barely any timing and on the rich side. I ran this exact setup for two years before i dropped a valve when i revved the motor to about 7500-8000 RPM's, which had to do with me not having an MSD box and the factory limiter being jacked up to 9000 rpms, ANY valve would have broken there, i could have had inconel, titanium, whatever. BUT, when i pulled the main caps off it was obvious when i read the bearing that the mains were walking all over the place, so the block was on borrowed time, NOT THE INTERNALS

 

[Blown331LX]

So wait.... Im confused... did any of us help with the guys original question?????

I think everyone has very valid points that should all be weighed out, and as far and the "big badass 306 drag car" shop owner goes.... I think im also mostly in agreement with the guys about not over building a rotating assembly in a stock block and to put the power to the ground most effectively... Hey and geuss what Im running in my car... a "306".... not cause the block needed a bore but because I got a free set of nice forged pistons on this deal I made so I figured it wouldnt hurt.... Oh and if your a "race car builder" then you should know that a .030 overbore only add about 4 HP.... thats right ... not even double digits.... Power and torque are made most effectively in the stroke, however a stroker motor is very hard on cylinder walls, piston skirts and wrist pins....

AND...Last but not least... "Opinions are like a**h***s...... Everyones got one and they all stink...***

 

[65ShelbyClone]

Yes, several people answered Sinister66's questions. It probably didn't get read, though; they haven't even logged in since Oct 29, 2009.