351 Cleveland swapped MII

[78 Mach1]

I did order the flex plate and a starter from Rock auto. Once that arrives the tranny will go straight in. Then we are down to exhaust. I’m so close to making a 40 year old dream come true. But yet still a long way off. This exhaust issue is a major wall to overcome.

 

[LILCBRA]

I think Noobz is referring to side pipes....

 

[78 Mach1]

I think Noobz is referring to side pipes....

That’s the way I understood it as well. But the image was unbearable. So instead of commenting on that, I responded with a similar option I was considering. But I’m not a huge fan of my alternative either.

I did message with a guy today who has a Cleveland in his M II. He said he was able to cut the factory manifolds and stick weld them to fit using nickel rod. This may be a good temporary solution until I can dig up a set of headers or scrape together enough cash for custom headers. I’m a little scared to try building my own. But who knows. I may give it a try if no other options arise.

 

[Bullitt347]

Your preaching to the choir on this one. I could have gotten more reliability and most likely more power for a lot less money and definitely a lot less hassle. I have built many small block Fords over the years and they were all Windsor based engines. I couldn’t agree with you more. But building a Cleveland powered Mustang II has been a dream of mine since I was 14 years old and my neighbor down the street from me had one. I’m finally going to be able to check that off my bucket list. Even if it is a fools errand.

But it will be unique. At least in modern times anyway. Most younger generations don’t even know what a Cleveland is. So that will be a good conversation starter with the younger hot rodders at shows or cruises.

I agree. Back in the day, Bob Glidden campaigned a Pro Stock Mustang II with a Cleveland. It will be cool as hell, and I would want to own one, they are just a PITA to install in a II.
Obviously, Glidden had a tube chassis car that made it easier.
Now there is a thought...

 

[78 Mach1]

Obviously, Glidden had a tube chassis car that made it easier.

That was discussed. Not full tube chassis. But cut out the inner front fender wells and run a single tube from the fire wall out and down to the frame rail to maintain structural integrity. But a big part of me wants this car to be as close to an old school street car as possible. That, in my mind, means not crossing the line of a race car. If you saw how much trouble I went through just to keep a fully functional back seat between the mini tubs, you would understand my thought.

I’m already pushing it with the shortened 8.8, fuel cell, and tunnel ram. I’m still on the fence about the tunnel ram. This motor looks really good in there in stock looking form. I’ve almost changed my mind and decided to go a stock look. But honestly, I’m to far past that point to go back.

 

[Bullitt347]

That was discussed. Not full tube chassis. But cut out the inner front fender wells and run a single tube from the fire wall out and down to the frame rail to maintain structural integrity. But a big part of me wants this car to be as close to an old school street car as possible. That, in my mind, means not crossing the line of a race car. If you saw how much trouble I went through just to keep a fully functional back seat between the mini tubs, you would understand my thought.

I’m already pushing it with the shortened 8.8, fuel cell, and tunnel ram. I’m still on the fence about the tunnel ram. This motor looks really good in there in stock looking form. I’ve almost changed my mind and decided to go a stock look. But honestly, I’m to far past that point to go back.

Be careful with the Tunnel Ram selection. The engine rpm operating range should be the upmost consideration. The longer the runner, the lower the peak power/torque will be. If you are looking for high rpm power, use the largest cross section Tunnel Ram that you can find. If lower RPM power/torque is needed use the smallest cross section Tunnel Ram. Also, for lower PRM HP/Tq. consider using two 390 cfm Holley carbs. (780 cfm total). You have to calculate the possible cfm usage of the engine and then use a carb/carb's that exceed that by about 20-25% or slightly more. Camshaft selection is also a huge consideration. The tighter the LSA, (104-110) the lower the operating RPM, but it gets a Choppier idle. A 112 to 115 LSA will move the power band up in the rpm range. Example: My race car engine spins just north of 8K rpm. It has a 115 LSA. (it is S/C) (powerband is 6K to 8,500 rpm) A 6K or lower rpm engine will likely want a 107-110 LSA. Maybe 112 LSA tops.

 

[78 Mach1]

Bullitt347. I am excited to talk with you about my setup. I know I am going about the engine build all wrong. But that is because I want the engine to look like a monster but perform like a street car. What I’m trying to do is counterintuitive, I definitely need some advice to keep this from turning into a disaster. This weekend is my anniversary celebration. So I can’t post until Monday. But I would love to gat some advice from you on my engine build.

 

[78 Mach1]

Bullitt347. My current engine setup is a completely fresh 351C built basically back to factory specs. Factory pistons, cam spec, and 2v heads. It made 245 HP on the engine dyno post build. My plan is to put a mild cam (mild meaning street drivable) but with a mean sound. Honestly the sound of the cam is more important to me than actual horsepower. The perfect cam for me would be a good thump with good street manners. I have a Weiand tunnel ram intake. It’s a 4v intake that I was planning to put port stuffers in to bring it down to 2v type runners. I was also hoping the long narrow runners would give me really good low end torque. Again not for any sort of racing, but just to help maintain good street manners.

The end goal for this car is something that looks and sounds like a beast but actually runs and drives like a mildly built street car. All looks, and easy street manners. I know this sounds crazy, but I love the look of a really hot car, but I am too old to deal with the uncomfortable driving habits that come with it. So honestly, I’d love to put a cam that sounds good, exhaust with a deep rumble, a tunnel ram to look cool, and a single quad Holley for ease of tuning. With all this, my goal would be to maintain a good street drivable car.

If you have any advice to achieve this goal, I’m listening. Because at this point, it’ll be all trial and error. If someone can prevent some error, I’d really appreciate it.

 

[78 Mach1]

Back to the current issue at hand. I need to move the engine towards the drivers side 1 inch. This is because Ford decided to offset these motors to the passenger side 1 inch during original manufacture. Now that the motor is sitting in the car, I can see moving it towards the drivers side is going to cause me some issues. I currently only have 1 inch of clearance between the valve cover and the brake booster. If I move over 1 inch, I will never be able to get that valve cover off again. So I’m looking into options for either a smaller brake booster, or some sort of a bracket to move the booster over an inch. Not sure if either is possible yet. I’m also going to install the tranny today so I can see if moving the motor over that inch is going to cause any issues with the tranny clearance as well as the shifter linkage. I’m hoping this isn’t opening a can of worms.

 

[78 Mach1]

Ran into another snag of course. It appears I do not have that plate that goes between the engine block and the bell housing. I call it an inspection plate. I’m sure it has a more correct name than that. Anyway, how important is that plate? I’m sure it help’s properly space the starter for correct tooth engagement. But do I have to have it? Common sense tells me without it will move the bell housing 1/16” or so closer to the block, which would intern push the starter back 1/16” away from the flywheel. But then not having the same plate between the bell housing and starter would move the starter back in the right direction to correct the tooth engagement again. My simple mind tells me, I won’t have any issues with the starter. With that factor eliminated, is there another purpose for that plate. Do I really have to have it?

If I do have to have it. I can make one work out of my spares I have laying around. Easy enough to cut and drill to fit. Or I can see if anyone has one they’d be willing to sell reasonably.

Please let me know if it is necessary and why.

Thanks

 

[78 Mach1]

Well. I went ahead and installed the tranny without the plate. I knew it was for mock-up anyway and would be coming back out at some point. Without the plate installed, there is a bunch of room for rocks and stuff to get into my bell housing. So I will definitely be buying one or fabricating my own.

With the transmission installed, exhaust looks almost impossible. Oh boy. I’m not sure what to do at this point. Maybe go out the fender wells and down the outside of the frame rails. I’m not sure, but my brain hurts thinking about it.

 

[78 Mach1]

Here’s under side of car with tranny and drive shaft bolted up.

Here’s looking up from under car passenger side.

Here’s drivers side

Here’s passenger side looking down from the top.

Here’s drivers side looking down from top.

There isn’t room for factory manifolds or headers. I really need to see a car in person to wrap my brain around how they ran their headers. I’m just not seeing any way.

 

[LILCBRA]

As for cam selection, what you'll want to look for is something with a tighter LSA. Here's a Motor Trend article to help describe it's effects.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1506-lobe-separation-angle-explained-and-how-it-affects-horsepower/

As for the header/manifold conundrum, I wonder how setting the engine down on the mounts affected clearances in comparison to another Cleveland outfutted II. Leaving the engine offset AND raised could've gained enough clearance on the driver side, and maybe they relocated the battery and took a torch or cutting wheel to the battery tray area of the passenger side fender skirt?

 

[78 Mach1]

I’m sure this swap has been accomplished by many people and each had their own unique spin on it. I do believe most left the motor offset, which would eliminate the brake booster issue. And I would be fine with this if my final plan wasn’t to cut a hole in the hood to clearance the tunnel ram. Having a hole in the hood not centered is going to look horrible. The only way I would be OK with leaving the engine offset is if I was going to keep everything under the hood. Or if I could put a scoop on the hood to hide the offset hole cut. If a solution exists to eliminate the booster or relocate it slightly out, I’d be fine. This is the options I’m looking at now.

I have already completely cut out the battery tray. The battery will be located in the rear hatch area.

Once I remove the motor mounts and install the mount plate, that will definitely open up some room. But it still looks like going under the front cross member and steering rack with the primary tubes is the only way. I’m seriously considering going out the fender wells at this point. But even that looks right.

 

[LILCBRA]

I don't remember if you said you were keeping power steering or not, but maybe a hydroboost setup could eliminate the valve cover/brake booster clearance issue? It wouldn't look "stock" when you pop the hood, but it doesn't sound like that would be a major issue with what you're going for.....

 

[Noobz347]

I will leave this here in case anybody gets the itch to call them:

D&D Automotive Specialties - Fox Body Mustang Engine Swap Headers

You might want to look to see if any of their swap kits would be helpful to you too.

 

[Blackhawkxx]

As for cam selection, I suggest just calling the cam manufacture of your choice and tell them what you are doing. They will be able to fix you up. I always speak to them before ordering.

 

[Blackhawkxx]

I don't remember if you said you were keeping power steering or not, but maybe a hydroboost setup could eliminate the valve cover/brake booster clearance issue? It wouldn't look "stock" when you pop the hood, but it doesn't sound like that would be a major issue with what you're going for.....

There are also electric that eliminates the booster, not super cheap though.

ABS Power Brake, Inc.

 

[78 Mach1]

I don't remember if you said you were keeping power steering or not, but maybe a hydroboost

I am keeping power steering. I have looked into those and may be my best option at this point. But I’m pulling the booster today to see what exactly my options are.

 

[78 Mach1]

I will leave this here in case anybody gets the itch to call them:

That’s a good idea. I will give them a call. Just as soon as I get this brake issue sorted and have the motor sitting in the correct location.