Feller for a product, Traction Device

[mrmustangman357]

As you may have seen before in these forums, I have had a wheelhop traction issue with my 66. My chassis is set up properly (launches are straight with no darting), pinion angle is set. So I decided to look for a traction enhancing device. Slapper bars were horrible for my application since the wrap was so bad it squatted. After looking at the offerings from Calvert Racing and Competition Engineering, I decided I could make a superior product, without the markup. I will put my mechanical engineering degree to use and perhaps offer a similar product (i.e. positive action traction devices), but optimized for a classic mustang without the NVH issues others deal with for these types of traction devices.

My coworker and I decided to work out of our shop, BWill Inc, and are starting engineering tests tomorrow on the '66 to see what benefit we can get. We are starting fabrication of the brackets for mounting under-car cameras to show exactly what is going on with the spring wrap in order to best address the issue. By doing track testing (namely consistent 60 ft times) we can validate or reexamine our product to show it works as intended. We are figuring on a bolt-in , laser cut, painted kit in the $250 neighborhood, as compared to a $340 Caltrac set or a $365 Comp. Engineering kit.


So, given all this information, who would realistically be interested in obtaining a set of these traction bars? In the future, we will be looking for one or two people to test a set and report their results. This will be most likely in late July, given the modeling and testing we need to do. If interested, please PM me and I can send you more information.

 

[oneturboneeded]

i have a 71 if it would fit i would get.

 

[1967project]

Ok so I have not come close to this part of my re-build but was wondering if anyone out there has had this issue with at 67? I dont plan on seeing the track too much but want to make sure I can put the power down when it comes to smoking a chevy off the line.
If others have had this issue with 67's I would be interested.

 

[D.Hearne]

As you may have seen before in these forums, I have had a wheelhop traction issue with my 66. My chassis is set up properly (launches are straight with no darting), pinion angle is set. So I decided to look for a traction enhancing device. Slapper bars were horrible for my application since the wrap was so bad it squatted. After looking at the offerings from Calvert Racing and Competition Engineering, I decided I could make a superior product, without the markup. I will put my mechanical engineering degree to use and perhaps offer a similar product (i.e. positive action traction devices), but optimized for a classic mustang without the NVH issues others deal with for these types of traction devices.

My coworker and I decided to work out of our shop, BWill Inc, and are starting engineering tests tomorrow on the '66 to see what benefit we can get. We are starting fabrication of the brackets for mounting under-car cameras to show exactly what is going on with the spring wrap in order to best address the issue. By doing track testing (namely consistent 60 ft times) we can validate or reexamine our product to show it works as intended. We are figuring on a bolt-in , laser cut, painted kit in the $250 neighborhood, as compared to a $340 Caltrac set or a $365 Comp. Engineering kit.


So, given all this information, who would realistically be interested in obtaining a set of these traction bars? In the future, we will be looking for one or two people to test a set and report their results. This will be most likely in late July, given the modeling and testing we need to do. If interested, please PM me and I can send you more information.

Have you factored in liability insurance for this product? Just me, but it's going to be hard to compete here with $150 Lakewood traction bars. I run em on my Comet and previously on my old big block 67 Stang and never had wheel hop or
squatting problems

 

[mrmustangman357]

Have you factored in liability insurance for this product? Just me, but it's going to be hard to compete here with $150 Lakewood traction bars. I run em on my Comet and previously on my old big block 67 Stang and never had wheel hop or
squatting problems

I would naturally add a disclaimer that releases all liability to myself for the product. You would not believe the aftermarket companies out there who discover a flaw in their product and don't tell the public. We are undergoing engineering testing to show both benefits and robustness of design. While the lakewood set is very good as an anti-rotation device, other designs are more proactive in actually forcing the tire into the pavement, thereby increasing traction with the higher normal force. We are looking for a laser cutting device in town (northern IL) to run some prototypes. I just want to gauge interest in a product.

 

[D.Hearne]

I would naturally add a disclaimer that releases all liability to myself for the product. You would not believe the aftermarket companies out there who discover a flaw in their product and don't tell the public. We are undergoing engineering testing to show both benefits and robustness of design. While the lakewood set is very good as an anti-rotation device, other designs are more proactive in actually forcing the tire into the pavement, thereby increasing traction with the higher normal force. We are looking for a laser cutting device in town (northern IL) to run some prototypes. I just want to gauge interest in a product.

You think a disclaimer releases you from liability ? You've got a lot more to learn here. Well set up Lakewoods actually lift the car slightly and plant the tires with more force. They do exactly what you're trying to do here. They're simple and effective.

 

[mrmustangman357]

I'm not going to discuss consumer protection laws in this thread. I want to stay on topic

 

[SadbutTrue]

As you may have seen before in these forums, I have had a wheelhop traction issue with my 66. My chassis is set up properly (launches are straight with no darting), pinion angle is set. So I decided to look for a traction enhancing device. Slapper bars were horrible for my application since the wrap was so bad it squatted. After looking at the offerings from Calvert Racing and Competition Engineering, I decided I could make a superior product, without the markup. I will put my mechanical engineering degree to use and perhaps offer a similar product (i.e. positive action traction devices), but optimized for a classic mustang without the NVH issues others deal with for these types of traction devices.

My coworker and I decided to work out of our shop, BWill Inc, and are starting engineering tests tomorrow on the '66 to see what benefit we can get. We are starting fabrication of the brackets for mounting under-car cameras to show exactly what is going on with the spring wrap in order to best address the issue. By doing track testing (namely consistent 60 ft times) we can validate or reexamine our product to show it works as intended. We are figuring on a bolt-in , laser cut, painted kit in the $250 neighborhood, as compared to a $340 Caltrac set or a $365 Comp. Engineering kit.


So, given all this information, who would realistically be interested in obtaining a set of these traction bars? In the future, we will be looking for one or two people to test a set and report their results. This will be most likely in late July, given the modeling and testing we need to do. If interested, please PM me and I can send you more information.

Me. Caltracs were planned for my 66 in the fall. If you can bring something to market thats comparable (and bolt-in) for less, you have a customer here.

 

[brianj5600]

I find it hard to believe Lakewoods can't be improved. Right now my car does not spin or wheelhop, but when I get it to, I'll be interested.

 

[mrmustangman357]

I personally do not prefer the slapper bars due to their look, and think there are improvements that can be made. The device in question is completely different than a slapper bar, however. My design we're working on also eliminates spring antirotation on braking as well, as opposed to slappers digging into the pavement

 

[SadbutTrue]

I personally do not prefer the slapper bars due to their look, and think there are improvements that can be made. The device in question is completely different than a slapper bar, however. My design we're working on also eliminates spring antirotation on braking as well, as opposed to slappers digging into the pavement

The Lakewoods in general just look too non-vehicle-specific/general, and while I'm sure when they're put in right they work, it sounds like its a lot of extra work to make sure they are in fact in right.

If you can make a traction device that isn't overtly obvious, is effective, and is suited (even if it doesn't improve) for all types of regular driving (cornering, daily driver-ing, etc... not just straight line accelerating) for $300 that bolts in... I'm there.

My car already wheelhops pretty bad, and thats with a mild, smogger-era 351w. When I get my new heads/intake/cam/carb in, I'm sure it will become pretty serious. In the fall I'm planning a rear shock change, rear tire change, and some sort of traction improving device (i had been counting on caltracs). If you need a test mule and wanna ship one out, put me at the top of the list

 

[D.Hearne]

Properly setup Lakewoods are not "slapper bars", nor do they dig into the pavement. If you think they do, then you have no clue as to how to use or install em.

 

[mrmustangman357]

okay D. Hearne every post you have made in this thread has tried to shoot down my idea. Without even looking at the design or any other aspect, you have thrown it out the door. I posted asking if anyone is interested in my idea of an improved traction device. You respond by:
A. Telling me my product is a liability (i.e. needing insurance)
B. How good you lakewood devices are

both tell me you can care less about my design since "your lakewoods are so good."


I personally think:
A. slapper bars (i.e. lakewoods) are redneck
B. Think the design can be improved to accomplish a better result

the design is entirely different than a slapper bar:

mine would be similar in nature to this:

It is an open discussion for who would be interested, not on which one is better. I would at least hope you would respect the topic of discussion that way

 

[oneturboneeded]

well put mrmustangman357. not to take sides but man d.hearne let up bro. this is a fellow mustanger trying to make a quality product for us at a better price. he should not be knocked but encouraged.

 

[SNAKEPILOT]

This site shows a few different ways to control wheel hop. Might give you some more ideas.
+1 for engineering more/better parts for Mustangs.

http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/suspension/traction_bars.htm

 

[D.Hearne]

okay D. Hearne every post you have made in this thread has tried to shoot down my idea. Without even looking at the design or any other aspect, you have thrown it out the door. I posted asking if anyone is interested in my idea of an improved traction device. You respond by:
A. Telling me my product is a liability (i.e. needing insurance)
B. How good you lakewood devices are

both tell me you can care less about my design since "your lakewoods are so good."


I personally think:
A. slapper bars (i.e. lakewoods) are redneck
B. Think the design can be improved to accomplish a better result

the design is entirely different than a slapper bar:

mine would be similar in nature to this:

It is an open discussion for who would be interested, not on which one is better. I would at least hope you would respect the topic of discussion that way

I neither said your idea was a liability nor said that Lakewoods were better than yours. I merly pointed out that you will need to cover your butt with liability insurance, no matter how good they are made,or perform. Any good lawyer can destroy you and your venture. All it takes is the right circumstances to occur with the right customer. If you don't believe that to be true,& think you'll be absolved of liability with a disclaimer, then by all means go for it. As for your thinking that Lakewoods bars are "redneck" that's your opinion. I'm a redneck and proud of it. They function the same as your $100+more expensive bars. And if I sell the Comet, I can always take em off and use em on any other leaf spring rear suspension Ford.

 

[Rapid]

I am looking for economical ways to locate my rear axle for autox. I am comsidering modifying the Shelby style bar with spherical ball ends sothat they will not bind during hard turns and adding a panhard rod. All this has to also allow a rear sway bar. Will your design take the cornering into account?

 

[runawayabc123]

I'm a redneck and proud of it.

Finally, the truth comes out!!!

Ok, I have been on the receiving end of critism from D. Hearne before and while it isn't fun, you have to have the critics around. They will point out your flaws and oversights. With any luck, you can fix those problems when they are still cheap and easy to fix (ie insurance now) and will show you what you need to do to win over the other guy's customers.

If anything, you need to put together an argument to convince D. Hearne to buy your product, then label it on your product and market it/tell everyone it. With any luck, you will then be able to steal all of the "other guy's" customers.

Just food for thought before you tell him to take a long walk off of a short pier.

 

[mrmustangman357]

Finally, the truth comes out!!!

Ok, I have been on the receiving end of critism from D. Hearne before and while it isn't fun, you have to have the critics around. They will point out your flaws and oversights. With any luck, you can fix those problems when they are still cheap and easy to fix (ie insurance now) and will show you what you need to do to win over the other guy's customers.

If anything, you need to put together an argument to convince D. Hearne to buy your product, then label it on your product and market it/tell everyone it. With any luck, you will then be able to steal all of the "other guy's" customers.

Just food for thought before you tell him to take a long walk off of a short pier.

Point taken. It is still hard to please those who have a preference for lakewood bars. If they are happy with their choice who am I to tell them theor choice is wrong?

For the autocross, if the system does not bind the leaf springs throughout the motion from full bump to full jounce it would not have a detrimental effect on handling, except for added unsprung weight. As far as panhard rods go, they already bind the leaf springs throughout the range of motion (depending on length of bar and position in the chassis. I don't have much experience with rear suspensions in autocross with leaf springs and panhard rods, but every one I've seen uses poly bushings and thicker shackes w/o a panhard rod.

 

[runawayabc123]

If they are happy with their choice who am I to tell them theor choice is wrong?

First, don't tell them they are wrong. Everyone hates to be wrong. Just tell them how your product is better.

But, you also have to be careful that you both are solving all of the same problems too. If you are solving problems A and B and they are solving B and C, then things get a little more complicated. (But if you are ABC and they are AB, C is why you are better.)

Don't poorly solve A to pickup C to compete (unless A is just too small of a market). But, you are figuring out that problem with this thread. Just make sure you have a profitable business plan and just because your costs are 100 per unit, don't charge 110 to make 10, you charge what the market will bear, say 200 (or whatever). Unless you want a better product for yourself and just want to make several to recover loss of time, perfecting it with more testing/development and make a couple bucks than close down.

It is all in what you want to do.

And keep asking for feedback. Write down and fix the short comings.

Also, be careful of brand loyalty. Many of us here would walk before buying a Chevy or a Dodge. If you are selling that person a Chevy or a Dodge, you can never please them. (But you can still use them to point out your problems, so you can fix them!)

Good luck and don't give up. Inventing, ideas and a drive for a better product is what made our country what it is.