Horsepower vs. Torque

[Michael Yount]

A thread like this ran a few days ago, and since then I found some interesting data in a recent comparison test in Car & Driver. Thought you might find the results interesting in terms of different ways to go quickly with your 5.0's (tech content).

Car 1 - Ferrari 612 5.8L (351) naturally aspirated V12 533HP@7250 434 lb-ft@5250 Weight - 4123 lbs. rear gear - 4.18:1 rear tires - 285/40-19

Car 2 - Mercedes Benz CL600 5.5L (336) twin turbo V12 493HP@5000 590 lb-ft@1800 (not a typo) Weight - 4542 lbs. rear gear - 2.65:1 rear tires 265/40-18

0-60 mph - both cars in 4.3 seconds
0-100 mph - Ferrari - 9.4, Benz - 9.8
1/4 mile - Ferrari - 12.5 @119; Benz - 12.6@115

You couldn't ask for much closer performance. The Benz is a few hundred pounds heavier, is short 40HP, but has 160 more lb-ft of torque to work with. Yet performance is almost identical. Note the gear ratios (tire dia. is close) - with all that torque at lower rpm, the Benz has a much longer gear ratio - to make use of the low rpm torque. It also has a 5 spd auto vs. the Ferrari's 6 spd auto - with the narrower power band, the Ferrari is geared (rear end and tranny) to keep the engine in the fat part of its power band (5000-7000) where it can do the most work. And for you low rpm torque fans - the Ferrari has a 16% better power to weight ratio, but the Benz is just as quick. Top speed is a different issue - the Ferrari wins; but it's more aerodynamic so easy comparisons are not possible.

I think this paints a picture of two different ways to get the same result - one through boost/low rpm grunt; one through revs/high rpm power. It's all about understanding how to gear things so you take maximum advantage of the engine's characteristics. By the way, the tester's voted hands down for the Benz in day to day driving. The torque means any time, any gear - mash the gas and you go. Right now.

 

[mustangsquared]

I guess I should get rid of the 355's and go back to 308's....

Thanks for the info...I guess low end torque rules (at least at the track)

 

[Qwk88LX]

Damn! I never thought the Ferrari would be that heavy! & the Benz is one torquey sob...the torque peaks at 1800rpms? whats up with that?

Well, I have a question that's somewhat related to this topic... maybe you can help me out..http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=484565

 

[Michael Yount]

Nope - low end torque or high end hp doesn't necessarily rule at the drag strip. What rules is matching your tranny/rear end gearing and traction to the engine's torque and power characteristics. And as top speeds increase at the drag strip or in other kinds of racing - there's no doubt that HP wins. You can't go fast without HP unless you have VERY low drag aero characteristics. And if you've got a lot of weight to accelerate, nothing like a bunch of torque down low to get it moving. It's never just one simple answer, unfortunately. It's compromise everywhere you turn.

 

[Michael Yount]

Qwk88 - probably not the Ferrari you're imagining - it's a big, 4 seater.

Small turbos are great at building low end torque - the Benz is a great example. Nothing like 600 lb-ft below 2000 rpm. Talk about burnouts. But because the turbos are small, the engine's all done by 5500 rpm.

 

[Qwk88LX]

Qwk88 - probably not the Ferrari you're imagining - it's a big, 4 seater.

Small turbos are great at building low end torque - the Benz is a great example. Nothing like 600 lb-ft below 2000 rpm. Talk about burnouts. But because the turbos are small, the engine's all done by 5500 rpm.

yeah, I just looked that ferrari up.. sweet looking car, but still heavier than it looks. so any ideas on my gear/tire question?

edit: n/m. thanks for your help

 

[BlueThunder1988]

That is interesting... I've been wondering who would come out on top with the cars below since the ratio of the HP to TQ figures are more or less reversed--I was short 25 HP but had 83 more TQ. They are Mustang dyno numbers from our recent club dyno day. The 88 is mine (run was on a 150 shot). Guess I'll have to cajole the Cobra owner out to the track some day.

2003 Mustang Cobra 415.1 360.3
1988 Mustang LX 5.0L 334.6 443.0

 

[Michael Yount]

Because of your weight advantage (significant - the Cobra's are portly), if you're geared properly and have the traction, I'd bet on you. Through the 1/4 of course - top end run he's gonna blow by you.

 

[maverick0716]

I always thought nitrous numbers were a little different.......because usually you're not spraying throught the entire run are you? It makes a big difference on the outcomes.

 

[maverick0716]

Damn! I never thought the Ferrari would be that heavy! & the Benz is one torquey sob...the torque peaks at 1800rpms? whats up with that?

Well, I have a question that's somewhat related to this topic... maybe you can help me out..http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=484565

He's talking about the 612 Scaglietti.....think of a 575M Maranello, they're very similar cars. They're touring cars that just happen to run mid-low 12's @119 mph in the 1/4 mile

About all that torque in the Mercedes at only 1800 rpm thats not uncommon with turbo setups. The Mercedes SL 65 AMG for examble also has a Bi-turbo V12. It produces 738 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm with 420 lb-ft @ 1000 rpm......and that torque is pretty much all there until 4000 rpm.

 

[RydeOn]

More proof that HP is a little better than torque. The Ferarri is trapping 4 mph faster than the Benz because its got 100 more HP than torque instead of the other way around. Torque is fine for toting your friends around and doing burnouts but HP makes for a funner driving, faster performance car.

 

[mustangsquared]

HP is fun, but Torque is what gives you that kicked in the A&& feel when you drop the hammer...now thats fun. (fun street driving...since I am a responsible drive that only goes 15 over not 50 over the limit. Mustangs already have a bad rap I will not add to it.

 

[Michael Yount]

Ryde on - look a little closer at the data -their e.t.s and acceleration times are nearly identical - they're equally quick to about 115-120 mph, and the Benz is 300 lbs. heavier; put two of your friends in the Ferrari to even things up, and the Benz is gonna get the light. The Ferrari's got a 4.18 gear, the Benz has a 2.65. The reason I listed the data is to show that there are two completely different ways to get to the same result. Turn those two loose on the street, and as a practical matter it's a dead heat. Now, pile 3 of your friends in each one for Friday night scooter pootin', and you'll be much happier with the Benz' torque than you would the Ferrari's HP. Now then, if you need to accelerate hard from 130mph to 155mph - the Ferrari's the one to have. But, we don't have to do that very often on the street.

 

[ganador01]

I always thought nitrous numbers were a little different.......because usually you're not spraying throught the entire run are you? It makes a big difference on the outcomes.

i spray through the entire run...hell sometimes off the line...

 

[RydeOn]

I am by no means discrediting you Mike. Your examples presented show clearly that two different approaches yeild similar results. I could not have illustrated this better myself. The main point with my post is that even though similar results are achieved, the nature of HP vs torque is apparant as well. Torque is better for the street. By comparing weight and acceleration, it is obvious. HP is a better for the track (the +4 mph in the trap tells me this). Those cars would fulfill two different personalities of driver.

PS- If you handed me the keys to the Ferrari, the LAST place Id want to drive it is on the street.

 

[Michael Yount]

Didn't feel discredited at all - not to worry. Just responding to the "hp is a little better than torque" line - I don't think either is better. They are what they are, and they allow for different things. Frankly, if they tossed the keys for either car to me, I'd drive either one anywhere for as long as they let me have them!

I didn't mention the price - for that 4 mph increase in trap speed (and we all know it keeps pulling better from there on up) you have to pay twice as much - $135,000 for the Benz; $270,000 for the 612. Yup - they'd have to toss me the keys. Don't think I'll be writing either one of those checks.

As for HP being better for the track - it depends. In this case it was a toss up - nearly equal elapsed times. They don't give the win to the highest trap speed. Autocross and short road course - the Benz' torque would be a big advantage. But the extra weight hurts. For the Ferrari's HP to shine, the track has to be long enough - and not all of them are.

 

[jasonlee0704]

PS- If you handed me the keys to the Ferrari, the LAST place Id want to drive it is on the street.

Ha, that reminds me of the time I saw a Ferrari pull up into the gas station I was filling up at... it tried to zoom into a parking space, but a big ol' 4WD truck with a lift kit backed into it's driver-side door.

Ferrari as your daily driver = .

Torque's like a guy, horsepower's like a chick, and driving's like sex. You could always masturbate I guess, but it's so much more fun to have the two together.

 

[RydeOn]

Torque's like a guy, horsepower's like a chick, and driving's like sex. You could always masturbate I guess, but it's so much more fun to have the two together.

I hear that!

Frankly, if they tossed the keys for either car to me, I'd drive either one anywhere for as long as they let me have them!

and that!!

 

[Michael Yount]

Here's mine at a recent small/local Euro-show next to a 365GTB (Daytona), then a 360 Modena (blue), then a Maserati Khasmin (yellow). Don't know how the Volvo ranked that positioning - but that's where they told me to park...

 

[shttygtstang]

this thread makes things worse for me