No Tune CAI's

[ski]

I'm not trying to get into a big fight over this and I don't want to make anyone mad. First, sorry your right, it was 5.0 mustang, not MMFF my mistake. But please go back and read the article I posted a link to carefully. I've pointed out a few things you missed below.

From the article the baseline numbers with the tune and without. Notice the 6hp increase from the hc trap removal is factored in so you shouldn't subtract it from the K&N test.
"Our baseline numbers were made with the car in stock trim, then we pulled the hydrocarbon trap from the inlet and got 261 rear-wheel horsepower and 282 lb-ft of torque."
and with the tune
"with a modest 91-octane tune, the car's baselinewas established at 271 rwhp and 289 rwtq."

And the following from the K&N Test. Notice they give two numbers, the first is without a tune (so they removed the tune for the K&N test), the second is with the 91 octane tune.

"Some of our participants didn't want any tune for their cold-air intake.Not only does this flaunt their engineering skills, but it also pointsout what a cost savings these systems are when a full dyno session witha custom computer flash can cost $200-$500, depending on the hourly ratefor your speed shop. We followed these manufacturers' wishes, and haveprovided rear-wheel horsepower measurements with just the cold-airbolted into position. But we also gave Ken Bjonnes the creativeopportunity to see what he could do; so you'll also see a dyno numberthat resulted from the CAI and an MD Motorsports tune."

So finally the numbers.
"Peak Horsepower: 279 (18hp gain)/(282 with SCT tune)
Peak Torque: 297 lb-ft (15-lb-ft gain)/(300 lb-ft with SCT tune)"

If you subtract the baseline for the car with the 91 octane tune from the tests on the other intakes most come up with around 18hp from just the CAI. So if they yield 18hp alone why is it so hard to believe the K&N would yeild 18hp? As for why HP TV only got 10hp? I think maybe the simple answer is that HP TV left the hc trap in. That accounts for ~ 6hp. Plus every car is different, not everyone will see 18hp. The 15hp claimed on K&N's site is probably an average of several dyno runs on different cars. Finally, maybe HP TV used a mustang dyno and 5.0 mag used a dynojet. Mustang dynos yield slightly lower numbers.

As they point out in the article the main problem with the K&N is that it is pretty much maxed out before the tune (as evidenced by the meager gains from adding the tune). So if you plan on adding a tune you should probably go with a different intake with a larger diameter tubing.

I consider our friendly discussion as simply clarifying comments and numbers, and not fighting.

For clarification for everyone's benefit, the following "Cold Score" test results were obtained according to the write up:
(1) - 255 hp with stock intake, stock tune, and HCT(hydrocarbon trap) installed.
(2) - 261 hp with stock intake and stock tune installed, and HCT removed(6 hp gain over the base number according to the article. Hence, the 255 hp in (1) above).
(3) - 271 hp with stock intake and generic 91 octane tune installed, and HCT removed(baseline according to the article).
(4) - Varying hp's with different CAI's and generic 91 octane tune installed(Every CAI was tested with this tune. None were tested without it. This is not the SCT tune).
(5) - Varying hp's with different CAI's and SCT tune installed(Only specific CAI's were tested with this tune. This tune is not the generic 91 octane tune).

When doing the math for each CAI's hp gain with the generic 91 octane tune installed, it's obvious that the tune accounts for 10 hp of each gain.
For example, the K&N CAI had a peak 279 hp, and an 18 hp gain. Subtracting 18 from 279 equals 261 hp, which is the hp without the generic 91 octane tune. That means that the K&N's net gain was 279 - (261 + 10) = 8 hp.
The same applies to those CAI's that were tested with the SCT tune.
Some of the CAI's were able to produce gains that were double the K&N CAI's gain because their MAF bore size is larger than stock, while the K&N CAI's bore size is the same as stock which limits hp gains.

WRT Horsepower TV's test, the HCT was definitely not left in place because it's installed in the stock intake, which was replaced with the K&N CAI.

WRT the K&N dyno test, it was done on a 2005 model, which had the HCT(it was not factory installed in '06 and later models). Hence, 6 hp out of the 15 hp total gain was attributed to the removal of the HCT.
And even if it was done on a Mustang dyno, then results would not be twice as much on a dynojet.

 

[jcsuli74]

i bought the BBK CAI (no tune) liek everybody else has said no noticeable HP gain, i did get better MPG with it though, plus the cool sound. I bought a diablo tuner and threw the 91 octane tune on... thats the ticket. i would do tuner first then intake. plus a short throw shifter makes a world of difference in driveability IMO.

 

[ski]

I'm back to eat some humble pie. My 2 comments "Every CAI was tested with this tune. None were tested without it." in the following item of my previous post regarding the "Cold Score" article are incorrect:
"(4) - Varying hp's with different CAI's and generic 91 octane tune installed(Every CAI was tested with this tune. None were tested without it. This is not the SCT tune)."
The K&N CAI, and I believe 2 other "no tune" CAI's, were tested with the stock factory tune. And the K&N CAI did produce an 18 hp gain with that setup according to the test results.

However, one important factor that must be pointed out regarding the gains of these "no tune" CAI's is that the test car used 93 octane for all of the runs. And since the factory tune will advance the timing for gas with an octane rating higher than 87, their hp gains are not representative of real world use where most owners will use 87 octane gas.

 

[fobra559]

Yeah it makes sense, my buddy uses 87 octane so the CAI with no tune is not much noticed butt dyno wise. Thanks for the info ski.

 

[gashog]

However, one important factor that must be pointed out regarding the gains of these "no tune" CAI's is that the test car used 93 octane for all of the runs. And since the factory tune will advance the timing for gas with an octane rating higher than 87, their hp gains are not representative of real world use where most owners will use 87 octane gas.

I didn't know that, thanks for posting.

 

[ski]

You're welcome, fobra and gashog.

 

[WY-STANG]

Get the tuner you will spend more but it will be worth it. I got my JLT from BAMA chips... Great company to work with. Came with three custom tunes (your choice) in the Xcal.

http://www.bamachips.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16&zenid=d7970937cf905627727bdaf70c792e4e

 

[DEInc]

Greetings, I have question for you mustang brainiacs. Recently I installed a roush/airaid cai, and purchased a sct x3 from american muscle. In my special instructions I noted that I wanted a tune that compensated for the removal of the venturi tube. American muscle called me and told me that removing the venturi even with a tune would reduce performance and I was better of leaving the tube in. How can this be? The cai instructions say not to remove the tube without a tune. I thought the tune was for compensating for the increased air flow/lean condition. If I leave the tube in whats the benefit of even having a tune? Man, that phone call confused the **** out of me. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Redfire 05]

That sounds stupid or lazy (to lazy to make a custom tune for you). The venturi reduces the MAF size and keeps the air velocity high to keep the stock computer tune happy. Removing the venturi increases the airflow and will increase power. You should email Brenspeed and see what they say about it. Brenspeed sells the Airraid CAI with or without the tune and should be able to help you.

 

[gashog]

Are you referring to the MAF housing? Most intakes have a larger diameter MAF housing (more air), I believe the airaid has this.

I would contact a tuner rather than the vendor for this type of question.

*Edit

Beat me to it... lol

 

[DEInc]

Thanks, I sent an email to SCT. We'll see what they have to say.

 

[ct07gt]

I am selling my Roush CAI which doesn't require a tune, I had to take it off to put my supercharger on so it was only on for 5000 miles. Let me know if you are interested.