Thinking of new gears? Here are some interesting calcs for you. (long)

I just thought I would bring this thread from the dead. I was thinking of doing a comparison showing the diminishing returns with a crazy gear. Then try to do a study of the benifits of actualy modding the engine to get he same effect at the wheels that a gear would get you. I figure this is decent tech for all you guys complaining about not having enough tech in the tech forum :D
 
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The following were some "non-scientific" thoughts I put in another thread at one time. While not a mathematical explanation, it kinda goes towards the diminishing returns idea....

With and overdrive gear in your trans, realistically all the worries you hear over gas mileage, engine runs too fast, can't go like 250 MPH , they're way over blown. With an OD trans in the car. Gears are the way to go......... You just can't beat em for bang for the buck and great take off.

Probably only two downsides to 3.55 and higher gears over the 3.08 and lower for street driving ......

1) The change in RPMs in terms of what's the "resonance" RPM in your cars exhaust system (when it resonates and gets loud) and hopefully the changing doesn't throw it right into your cruise RPM range.

and probably more importantly and what will affect you the most on the street every day.....

2) How does it affect your shift points. With an automatic, no big deal. But with a 5-speed, the shift points will be lower. The 94-95s have a really low 3.35 first gear (can't remember the 1st gear number for the earlier cars offhand, 2.95 or something like that). With a 3.35 first and 3.73 rear, shifting at 15 MPH will be at 2451 RPM while shifting at only 20 MPH will be at 3568 RPM. Kinda high! Like you keep hearing, 1st is almost useless as in it winds up so fast you feel like as soon as you let the clutch out, you're pushing it right back in to go for a speed shift for second. Now lets say you pick a common 2400 RPM shift point, the 3.08s would be at 17.8 MPH when you press the clutch pedal, the 3.55s at 15.4 MPH, and with the 3.73s you'd be at 14.7 MPH. Doesn't seem like much difference but it's the speed at which the motors RPMs are increasing that creates an issue. You don't automatically and immediately hit the next gear (like and auto) so you have some time lag in between shifts. (Again we're talking daily driving on the street, not racing). With 3.08s the difference while you're shifting between 15 and 20 MPH is 674 RPMs, with 3.73s the 5 MPH difference goes up to 1117 RPMs (2451 to 3568 RPMs). Not much room left to go up any more without winding the crap out of the motor is there.

The larger the gear the the harder the launch! But remember the downside. The more gear you put in, the lower and now faster your shifts will have to be....... everytime you stop, all day long, every day, both direction back and forth to wherever you're going!
 
basicly were the more you add the less and less you see at a point you will get to the point that it just takes soo much its realy not worth it.....

kinda like how the stock 215hp will get you 14.8, with 50extra hp you can get a 13.8- and an extra 100 (from stock) will get you a 12...now another 200 (400 total) can get you in the 11's or maybe high 10's it starts taking ALOT more hp to get lower 10's high 9's. Just an ex.
 
KK6695GT said:
2) How does it affect your shift points. With an automatic, no big deal. But with a 5-speed, the shift points will be lower. The 94-95s have a really low 3.35 first gear (can't remember the 1st gear number for the earlier cars offhand, 2.95 or something like that). With a 3.35 first and 3.73 rear, shifting at 15 MPH will be at 2451 RPM while shifting at only 20 MPH will be at 3568 RPM. Kinda high! Like you keep hearing, 1st is almost useless as in it winds up so fast you feel like as soon as you let the clutch out, you're pushing it right back in to go for a speed shift for second. Now lets say you pick a common 2400 RPM shift point, the 3.08s would be at 17.8 MPH when you press the clutch pedal, the 3.55s at 15.4 MPH, and with the 3.73s you'd be at 14.7 MPH. Doesn't seem like much difference but it's the speed at which the motors RPMs are increasing that creates an issue. You don't automatically and immediately hit the next gear (like and auto) so you have some time lag in between shifts. (Again we're talking daily driving on the street, not racing). With 3.08s the difference while you're shifting between 15 and 20 MPH is 674 RPMs, with 3.73s the 5 MPH difference goes up to 1117 RPMs (2451 to 3568 RPMs). Not much room left to go up any more without winding the crap out of the motor is there.

The larger the gear the the harder the launch! But remember the downside. The more gear you put in, the lower and now faster your shifts will have to be....... everytime you stop, all day long, every day, both direction back and forth to wherever you're going!

My post is not to dispute any of the things you have said here :nono:

I'm sure your rpm values are right on the money :nice:

however ......

Consider this line of thought ... if you will :D

If you compare what you said and all those rpm values between a Stocker and a h/c/i modded Stang that has a little higher rpm range AND the power band shifted up somewhat .....................

373's and 410's are not as radical in the modded Stang as they are gonna be in the Stocker.

First gear in the modded Stang is not gonna seem so short.

Again ... your rpm values are gonna be the same with both Stangs.

btw ... I am speaking from a stick combo perspective.

Grady
 
Changing rearend gear doesn't change the shift point at all. It's based on where on your torque curve you land after the shift. The shift point actually doesn't have anything to do with mph. If it's daily driving you are talking about, it may be a different story,
 
Or, as ZeroSignals chart implies, torque increase is great but at a certain point it becomes unusable torque. Lets say it's the point where 2+2=3 instead of 4 because the rate of RPM increase is too high which either makes traction an issue or shift points way too high so you're loosing "1" (a diminishing return, an addition is worth less than the loss, a negative gain). That was kinda my point in my "non-technical" version. For daily street driving keep in mind the tall gears sound cool when you're bench racing but at a certain point it just becomes a PITA driving with them everyday....
 
Again, in WOT it won't change the shift point rpm. It will eventually become a problem with not staying in gear long enough. Whereas if you have a high rpm, high hp setup, you can stay in gear long enough to get the most out of it.
 
Guess everyones on here today! Couple more posts just slipped in between reading and posting!

No I'm talking strictly daily driving here and my thoughts on the "don't fear the gear" comments you usually hear. Changing to a 3.55, 3.73, 4.10 etc will either increase the RPM you will shift at or lower the MPH you will shift at. The physical act of shifting (pressing the pedal in and out and moving the shift lever) will happen quicker and require you to adjust your "normal" shift point. The motor is winding up quicker so you're shifting quicker. This means you're now shifting at either at a higher RPM than you originally were with 2.73s or 3.08s or you will be shifting sooner (assuming you're shifting at your old RPM / MPH points). At a certain point, with everyday driving, the go factor vs the pain in the azz factor will come into play in terms of a diminshing return.
 
Sure they do! How can you say gears don't effect when or how soon you have to shift?

If you're wanting to have a 2400 RPM shift point, with 3.08s you're shifting from 3rd to 4th at 45 MPH while with 3.73s your shifting at approximately 38 MPH (ie you're shifting sooner).

Or flip it around for a commom MPH point where you shift. If your want to shift at 20 MPH, with 3.08s you're only at 2700 RPMs, with 3.73s you're at 3600! Big difference for daily street stop and go driving!!
 

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Bit we are talking about WOT optimum shift points. Those won't be affected by gears. Like I said, with daily driving it's not the same. Becuase everyone drives differently, you can't really compare that at all IMO.
 
I was just trying to throw in a "reality factor" for people to keep in mind when considering gears for the street. Like you say you're talking WOT (racing or I guess you could call it very aggressive daily driving.....). Per the chart the max TE for each gear is 3500 RPM so that's your objective to hit at WOT before you shift. I was just trying to suggest to the people possibly considering a gear swap that just looking for the big numbers isn't the whole story, they must also keep in mind the big picture. If you're using the car for steet driving much, shifting from 1st to 2nd at 3500 RPM stoplight to stoplight will get real old real fast....
 
KK6695GT said:
Sure they do! How can you say gears don't effect when or how soon you have to shift?

If you're wanting to have a 2400 RPM shift point, with 3.08s you're shifting from 3rd to 4th at 45 MPH while with 3.73s your shifting at approximately 38 MPH (ie you're shifting sooner).

Or flip it around for a commom MPH point where you shift. If your want to shift at 20 MPH, with 3.08s you're only at 2700 RPMs, with 3.73s you're at 3600! Big difference for daily street stop and go driving!!


"shift points" are rpm based not MPH based

shanging geras does not change shift points daily driving or racing. THE driver may mentally change their daily shift points, but there is absolutely no reason to change them. In fact, you can actually lower your shift point in 1st and second due to the higher tractive effort. The change is more pronounced in a cammed/ head cam car.

Changing your powerband DOES change shift points

changing your transmission gearing DOES/MAY change shift points, final gear, no