Snapped two bolts tonight removing the original 25 year old pump tonight. Any suggestions on how to remove the broken bolts/stud without pulling the timing cover?
Water pump nightmare
- Thread starter tca7291
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Use heat to help you remove them. I used a MAPP gas torch, which is hotter than a regular propane torch. Heat the area around the block to heat up the block. I would heat the block, turn the bolt maybe 1/4 - 1/2 turn, tighten it back 1/4 - 1/2 turn (back where I started), then heat it again and start the process over. Each time I'd loosen it a little bit more and eventually it felt loose enough to try and unthread all the way. Probably took 8-10 cycles total per bolt.
Now, the problem with just the stud remaining. You could try and file off the end of the stud to create two flat spots and allow you to use a crescent wrench on it, but I have a feeling that wouldn't work. I believe they make special sockets that will grip the end of the stud and start to turn it. Something like vice grips aren't going to work; you need to develop more torque than you'll be able to get with those.
Now, the problem with just the stud remaining. You could try and file off the end of the stud to create two flat spots and allow you to use a crescent wrench on it, but I have a feeling that wouldn't work. I believe they make special sockets that will grip the end of the stud and start to turn it. Something like vice grips aren't going to work; you need to develop more torque than you'll be able to get with those.
rd
Founding Member
You are lucky and have enough bolt to work on. vice grips, maybe grind some flats as suggested, lots of pb blaster, and if you can, some heat on the block.
Been there done this. I would really recommend pulling the timing cover. I found the bind on the bolts was aluminum/steel corosion in the timing cover holes, at least as much as the threads into the block.
They make special timing cover gaskets with the front oil pan sections to put it back together.
Been there done this. I would really recommend pulling the timing cover. I found the bind on the bolts was aluminum/steel corosion in the timing cover holes, at least as much as the threads into the block.
They make special timing cover gaskets with the front oil pan sections to put it back together.
ReefBlueHatch
Active Member
I did mine about four years ago, so it's been awhile. I remember lots of PB Blaster and heat. Then I borrowed a tool from Autozone for removing broken bolt studs. I can't remember exactly how it worked, but it did the trick.
larrym1961
5 Year Member
PB Blaster, great stuff when given time to penetrate bolts. I am certainly glad all my bolts come out without issue when I replaced a water pump on my Mustang 10 years ago. I did replace my old bolts with new ones @ that time. And of course with plenty of Anti-Seize on them.
Here’s the parts list for the broken water pump bolts. Not cheap, but it will get you fixed and back on the road…
This is primarily for bolts that broke off below the timing chain cover. It isn't the best approach for broken bolts you can attack with Vise Grips or a stud remover.
A word about the links, if they don’t work, do a search on the part number (P/N). MSC updates their catalog regularly, and the pages may change, but the part numbers don’t.
The prices here may be old and out of date, but the part numbers should still be good.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1096 Use drill bushing 5/16” OD, 5/32” ID, ¾” long, P/N 07010457, price $12.49 This centers the drill bit in the housing bolt hole so you don’t get off center and damage the water pump, timing cover housing or engine block
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=27 drill bits - use 5/32” Cobalt/TiN coated bit. P/N 83240556, price $4.17
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1928 Screw/bolt extractors. Use EZY-OUT Screw Extractor P/N 63760037 Price $4.16
One step specialty item: See Drill-Out® Broken Bolt Extractors drill bushing, reverse twist drill & extractor all in one unit. Best to use when the bolt breaks off with the remaining part below the start of the threads. .P/N 05027164. Price $24.40 each. You MUST have a reversing drill motor (either air or electric) to use this bit. http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=19268
A long shank tap should be used to chase the leftover metal out of the original threads. Also recommended to clean the corrosion and dirt out of the threads before you reassemble everything. Cleaning the threads will help prevent the bolts from seizing next time (yes, there will be a next time).
Long shank 5/16” taps to clean or re-tap threads with the timing cover or water pump still in place.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=04801189 5/16” pulley tap, 6” shank P/N 04801189 price $31.71
OR second choice, will not clean all the bottom threads unless you grind the end of the tap.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=04701181 extension tap, 6” reduced diameter shank P/N 04701181 $35.83
See http://totallystainless.net/totally.html for the bolts and studs. Nice folks, very into cars of all types. They have all kinds of stainless fasteners for almost every car. The prices are very reasonable, less the $8 for the water pump kit without the studs.
Stud bolt kits for FORD 5.OL water pumps in:
1985 mustang with (2) short, (2) medium, (1) long stud bolt, & flange nuts
(also used on some FORD trucks & suv applications) P/N 6-9030, $63.50
1994-1995 Mustang with (2) short & (1) medium length stud bolt P/N 6-9028, $37.40
1986-1993 Mustang with (2) short & (1) long stud bolt P/N 6-9029, $37.90
Stock plain steel studs are a Motormite item available at your local Advance Auto Parts store.
Motormite Water Pump Stud Kits for Ford, Lincoln and Mercury cars and trucks w/3.8L, 4.6L, 5.0L, 5.8L.
Part Number: 23744
Bolt removal instructions:
1.) Remove the water pump, fan, fan shroud & radiator – you’ll need lots of room to get the drill positioned straight.
2.) Test fit the drill bushing in the timing cover housing – this assumes that the bolt broke off below the surface of the housing. If it is too loose, use some scotch tape wrapped around it to make a snug fit. The drill bushing helps center the drill bit up on the broken bolt so that it does not get off into the timing cover or engine block. If the bushing does not fit at least 3/8” into the timing cover, you may want to consider removing the timing cover and attacking the remnant of the bolt shank with a propane torch and Visegrips. If not, then find a drill bit big enough to drill off some of the remnant of the bolt shank until you can get the drill bushing in the required 3/8” or deeper into the timing cover housing. You will end up using the timing cover housing to center the large drill bit on the broken bolt shank. This is not the best plan, since the aluminum timing cover is soft and it would be easy to get the bit off center and damage the timing cover.
3.) Once you have the drill bushing in place, chuck up the drill bit and drill the broken bolt. Use lots of WD40 to cool the drill bit. If you break the drill bit off in the bolt, it is time for a tow trip the automotive machine shop. Drill bits and easy outs are extremely hard and cannot be removed by ordinary means. It takes a solid carbide bit and extreme care to remove a broken drill bit or broken easy out.
4.) When you have drilled about ½” into the broken bolt, then remove the drill bushing and use a hammer to tap the easy out into place. Then chuck up the easy out in a T handle tap wrench. Turn the tap wrench slowly counter clockwise and you will feel it dig into the broken bolt. If it starts to slip, tap on the tap wrench with the hammer to reseat the easy out into the bolt.
5.) Keep turning and one of three things will happen:
a.) The bolt will come out and your efforts will be rewarded.
b.) Or the easy out will continue to slip and more efforts will not make it grip. This means you get to remove the timing cover and attack the bolt remnant head on. That means you get to drill the bolt out to a thin shell & either re-tap the hole or install a helicoil threaded insert.
c.) Or worst of all, the easy out will break off it the bolt shank. Then it is tow time to the automotive machine shop and pain in the wallet.
This is primarily for bolts that broke off below the timing chain cover. It isn't the best approach for broken bolts you can attack with Vise Grips or a stud remover.
A word about the links, if they don’t work, do a search on the part number (P/N). MSC updates their catalog regularly, and the pages may change, but the part numbers don’t.
The prices here may be old and out of date, but the part numbers should still be good.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1096 Use drill bushing 5/16” OD, 5/32” ID, ¾” long, P/N 07010457, price $12.49 This centers the drill bit in the housing bolt hole so you don’t get off center and damage the water pump, timing cover housing or engine block
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=27 drill bits - use 5/32” Cobalt/TiN coated bit. P/N 83240556, price $4.17
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1928 Screw/bolt extractors. Use EZY-OUT Screw Extractor P/N 63760037 Price $4.16
One step specialty item: See Drill-Out® Broken Bolt Extractors drill bushing, reverse twist drill & extractor all in one unit. Best to use when the bolt breaks off with the remaining part below the start of the threads. .P/N 05027164. Price $24.40 each. You MUST have a reversing drill motor (either air or electric) to use this bit. http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=19268
A long shank tap should be used to chase the leftover metal out of the original threads. Also recommended to clean the corrosion and dirt out of the threads before you reassemble everything. Cleaning the threads will help prevent the bolts from seizing next time (yes, there will be a next time).
Long shank 5/16” taps to clean or re-tap threads with the timing cover or water pump still in place.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=04801189 5/16” pulley tap, 6” shank P/N 04801189 price $31.71
OR second choice, will not clean all the bottom threads unless you grind the end of the tap.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=04701181 extension tap, 6” reduced diameter shank P/N 04701181 $35.83
See http://totallystainless.net/totally.html for the bolts and studs. Nice folks, very into cars of all types. They have all kinds of stainless fasteners for almost every car. The prices are very reasonable, less the $8 for the water pump kit without the studs.
Stud bolt kits for FORD 5.OL water pumps in:
1985 mustang with (2) short, (2) medium, (1) long stud bolt, & flange nuts
(also used on some FORD trucks & suv applications) P/N 6-9030, $63.50
1994-1995 Mustang with (2) short & (1) medium length stud bolt P/N 6-9028, $37.40
1986-1993 Mustang with (2) short & (1) long stud bolt P/N 6-9029, $37.90
Stock plain steel studs are a Motormite item available at your local Advance Auto Parts store.
Motormite Water Pump Stud Kits for Ford, Lincoln and Mercury cars and trucks w/3.8L, 4.6L, 5.0L, 5.8L.
Part Number: 23744
Bolt removal instructions:
1.) Remove the water pump, fan, fan shroud & radiator – you’ll need lots of room to get the drill positioned straight.
2.) Test fit the drill bushing in the timing cover housing – this assumes that the bolt broke off below the surface of the housing. If it is too loose, use some scotch tape wrapped around it to make a snug fit. The drill bushing helps center the drill bit up on the broken bolt so that it does not get off into the timing cover or engine block. If the bushing does not fit at least 3/8” into the timing cover, you may want to consider removing the timing cover and attacking the remnant of the bolt shank with a propane torch and Visegrips. If not, then find a drill bit big enough to drill off some of the remnant of the bolt shank until you can get the drill bushing in the required 3/8” or deeper into the timing cover housing. You will end up using the timing cover housing to center the large drill bit on the broken bolt shank. This is not the best plan, since the aluminum timing cover is soft and it would be easy to get the bit off center and damage the timing cover.
3.) Once you have the drill bushing in place, chuck up the drill bit and drill the broken bolt. Use lots of WD40 to cool the drill bit. If you break the drill bit off in the bolt, it is time for a tow trip the automotive machine shop. Drill bits and easy outs are extremely hard and cannot be removed by ordinary means. It takes a solid carbide bit and extreme care to remove a broken drill bit or broken easy out.
4.) When you have drilled about ½” into the broken bolt, then remove the drill bushing and use a hammer to tap the easy out into place. Then chuck up the easy out in a T handle tap wrench. Turn the tap wrench slowly counter clockwise and you will feel it dig into the broken bolt. If it starts to slip, tap on the tap wrench with the hammer to reseat the easy out into the bolt.
5.) Keep turning and one of three things will happen:
a.) The bolt will come out and your efforts will be rewarded.
b.) Or the easy out will continue to slip and more efforts will not make it grip. This means you get to remove the timing cover and attack the bolt remnant head on. That means you get to drill the bolt out to a thin shell & either re-tap the hole or install a helicoil threaded insert.
c.) Or worst of all, the easy out will break off it the bolt shank. Then it is tow time to the automotive machine shop and pain in the wallet.
Thanks everyone, I attacked it earlier tonight with no prevail. I am planning on going ahead and pulling the timing cover tommorow. Such a pia. I was trying to pull the upper stud with heat and a pipe wrench, but it is just too seized. It snapped further in.
gearheadboy
15 Year Member
Work it back and forth. Tap on the end of the stud with a hammer. Back and forth. Vise grips (real ones) with good teeth. Don't heat the bolt itself. Block only, if anything. If you pull the cover, pick up a timing chain. It is loose. Been there on my old truck. Same deal.
You probably know of this, but I still wanna say it JUST IN CASE your next reply will be "well I broke the timing cover...". There's 4 bolts that go through the oil pan up into the timing cover.
Shakerhood
Dirt-Old 20+Year Member
I always weld a nut on a broken bolt or stud, the heat helps a little and the nut gives you something to put a wrench or socket on, PB Blaster is a big help too.
Finally got them! They wern't frozen in the block, just corrosion between the aluminum and the steel bolts. Thanks everyone for your tips/advice, it was all very helpful. Now I just have re assembly! I am finally a happy camper! Also now I know my timing chain is still in good shape!
gearheadboy
15 Year Member
Don't forget to clean the holes and threads. Coat the bolts with lots of Never-Seeze. It will make things easier next time.
Yes, there will be a next time...
Yes, there will be a next time...
rd
Founding Member
Glad you got them.
X2 on applying anti sieze on the threads and shank that goes through the timing cover.
And jrichker is a national treasure. Thanks for the info!
X2 on applying anti sieze on the threads and shank that goes through the timing cover.
And jrichker is a national treasure. Thanks for the info!
Thanks again everybody for your help, got everything back together tonight, just need to wait for the rtv to cure and fill her up with some fresh coolant.
I would love to use stainless, but the studs are diffrent size and thread on each end. Great idea.though!
There is a company out there that people have used to piece together stainless bolts and studs for the water pump. It's not cheap once you buy the bolts and the studs, and I believe it takes a little while to get the bolts which most people don't want to wait for.
http://totallystainless.net/totally.html
When I did mine I just cleaned up the studs really well with a wire wheel and replaced the bolts with new ones. I used anti-sieze on all the bolts/studs and am hoping for the best the next time I have to do it.
http://totallystainless.net/totally.html
When I did mine I just cleaned up the studs really well with a wire wheel and replaced the bolts with new ones. I used anti-sieze on all the bolts/studs and am hoping for the best the next time I have to do it.
Good job, that could have been a nightmare. I had a similar issue somewhat recently, after throwing everything at it I succeeded by zipping a slot in the end of the stud and using a screwdriver to force it out. Heat and PB blaster were included but they alone didn't work and the vice grips, as usual, didn't help.
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