vrpirata
Founding Member
The best news we could get beofre the 05 bows
- Thread starter falchulk
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vrpirata
Founding Member
kirkyg said:
Probably they average the "big 3" problems and they said they were worst by "6" vs japanese brands, probably if the take only Ford and GM the diference would be a lot closer.
I found that VW is the worst european brand and their quality is worst than American brands, almost as bad as Hyundai and Mitsubishi, and Mercedez is the worst luxury brand.
http://www.jdpower.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease3.asp?ID=2003028
kirkyg
Founding Member
I saw the JD Power/Consumer reports ....Toyota says 115 problems per 100 vehicls compared to the BMW 124 problems and so forth.
But JD Power/consumer reports do not state the type of problems the cars are having. If a BMW has more standard electronic controlled equipment like standard traction control, yaw sensing DSC or side head airbag system or ECU controlled VANOS system and that's more standard equipment than a Camry then i think 124 problems/100 is less compared to 115 problems/100 for a 4-banger or V6 Toyota because of the complications involved in making all these work in tandem is certainly more for the former.
Heck i dare say that the only thing most intelligent in Toyotas is the VVTI but then again it's not as complicated like phasing the intake/exhaust valves as in the double-Vanos in BMW or Vario-Cam in Porshce or in the new 05 Mustang. Hence 115 is plenty more in such cars and i would rather deal in "9" more problems but have a fun car to drive. Besides all(besides VW) German cars offer 4yr/50k warranty, the same in free maintenance, and the same in free roadside assistance.
Hence I would consider a BMW more reliable than a Toyota.
Similiarly none of the BMW 3-series or Toyota (Corolla/Camry) <the most popular line-ups> offer a V8 and let's say about 30% sales of the Mustang are V8 compared to 0 for a BMW or Toyota. Now bigger the engine displacement more the demands are on the related components let's say axle, suspension , transmission etc. not to mention the type of driver abuse the car is put to. Demographic view of the consumer.
Hence 136 problem/100 by Ford or GM is possibly as good or nearly as good as a BMW, a Honda or a Toyota and defnitely better than Volkswagen.
Although with this logic Porsche emerges the best or the most reliable amongst the whole bunch, but then they are also the most profitable automaker in the business.
But JD Power/consumer reports do not state the type of problems the cars are having. If a BMW has more standard electronic controlled equipment like standard traction control, yaw sensing DSC or side head airbag system or ECU controlled VANOS system and that's more standard equipment than a Camry then i think 124 problems/100 is less compared to 115 problems/100 for a 4-banger or V6 Toyota because of the complications involved in making all these work in tandem is certainly more for the former.
Heck i dare say that the only thing most intelligent in Toyotas is the VVTI but then again it's not as complicated like phasing the intake/exhaust valves as in the double-Vanos in BMW or Vario-Cam in Porshce or in the new 05 Mustang. Hence 115 is plenty more in such cars and i would rather deal in "9" more problems but have a fun car to drive. Besides all(besides VW) German cars offer 4yr/50k warranty, the same in free maintenance, and the same in free roadside assistance.
Hence I would consider a BMW more reliable than a Toyota.
Similiarly none of the BMW 3-series or Toyota (Corolla/Camry) <the most popular line-ups> offer a V8 and let's say about 30% sales of the Mustang are V8 compared to 0 for a BMW or Toyota. Now bigger the engine displacement more the demands are on the related components let's say axle, suspension , transmission etc. not to mention the type of driver abuse the car is put to. Demographic view of the consumer.
Hence 136 problem/100 by Ford or GM is possibly as good or nearly as good as a BMW, a Honda or a Toyota and defnitely better than Volkswagen.
Although with this logic Porsche emerges the best or the most reliable amongst the whole bunch, but then they are also the most profitable automaker in the business.
kirkyg
Founding Member
Sean`03///Zed4 said:
Thats an excellent point. Sure looks you might have brought up something important.
kirkyg
PlatinumDevil
Member
Lol lets see how many more stereotypes we can throw into one topic.
First of all, Imports are NOT more reliable then domestics.
First of all if you've ever been to a junkyard check out the import section then check the domestic section. In the domestic section you have 1970's cars lookin fairly decent with small amounts rust. You go to the import section and the oldest car is about 1985 and is completely rusted out. I wont even continue this argument cause you all know its true.
Everyone is always saying how import engines last twice as long as an american engine etc etc. Well lets look at that shall we. (all these figures are in kilometers) My friends Tercel, lasted to 154,000kms. My friends celica GTS 169,000. (tercel completely blew and seized up, the other sheared a cam bearing). My first mustang had 205,000 and i bagged the living piss out of that car, and it ran just as good when i got it as when i sold it. My new car the Z34 happens to have 305,000 on a high performance engine, 300,000 is high even for an import, a little econo-box might hit 300,000 but not much else. Funny thing is my car dyno'd at 211hp stock, so a loss of 4 hp, it runs perfect, doesn't burn oil, doesn't knock, doesn't make noise, anything. Now your thinkin, o he must do regular maintenance ETC. Well i haven't changed the oil since i've had the car (i dont know 5 months say?) (i've put 7,000kms on the car so far), i changed the air filter and that was it. It doesn't have a spot of rust on it, even the stock mufflers aren't rusted yet (they're worn out and sound like straight pipes now tho
). The paint is amazing, like brand new, my friends 2001 civic SIG's paint is already fading. Basically the highest performance Celica sheared a bearing being driven normally and revved maybe to 5000 in merge lanes, whereas my car is revved to 7000 on a regular basis and is raced every chance i get, and has absolutely nothing wrong with it. Not to mention its a first year Chevy car.
90% of these articles are written by 70 year olds who drive those weird lookin pedafile cars cause their modern and make them feel young. American non-performance cars aren't that great, whereas imports regular cars never make it hear, just their semi-performance cars (i know you dont believe me, go to japan and see what they drive, my friends sister has a 1995 45hp Subaru). Basically we dont hear about their "super" cars or their extremely bottom line cars, take ford australia for example, those are amazing cars. (believe it or not Honda makes something other then the civic and CRV, i know shocking isn't it)
Basically they're comparing neons to Focus' to Celica's to BMW's. They dont compare a corvette to a NSX or a mustang to a supra. Neons are tough little pieces of 'Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me' so that gets chrysler some bonus marks and obviously a BMW is gonna blow every other car out of the water.
First of all, Imports are NOT more reliable then domestics.
First of all if you've ever been to a junkyard check out the import section then check the domestic section. In the domestic section you have 1970's cars lookin fairly decent with small amounts rust. You go to the import section and the oldest car is about 1985 and is completely rusted out. I wont even continue this argument cause you all know its true.
Everyone is always saying how import engines last twice as long as an american engine etc etc. Well lets look at that shall we. (all these figures are in kilometers) My friends Tercel, lasted to 154,000kms. My friends celica GTS 169,000. (tercel completely blew and seized up, the other sheared a cam bearing). My first mustang had 205,000 and i bagged the living piss out of that car, and it ran just as good when i got it as when i sold it. My new car the Z34 happens to have 305,000 on a high performance engine, 300,000 is high even for an import, a little econo-box might hit 300,000 but not much else. Funny thing is my car dyno'd at 211hp stock, so a loss of 4 hp, it runs perfect, doesn't burn oil, doesn't knock, doesn't make noise, anything. Now your thinkin, o he must do regular maintenance ETC. Well i haven't changed the oil since i've had the car (i dont know 5 months say?) (i've put 7,000kms on the car so far), i changed the air filter and that was it. It doesn't have a spot of rust on it, even the stock mufflers aren't rusted yet (they're worn out and sound like straight pipes now tho
). The paint is amazing, like brand new, my friends 2001 civic SIG's paint is already fading. Basically the highest performance Celica sheared a bearing being driven normally and revved maybe to 5000 in merge lanes, whereas my car is revved to 7000 on a regular basis and is raced every chance i get, and has absolutely nothing wrong with it. Not to mention its a first year Chevy car. 90% of these articles are written by 70 year olds who drive those weird lookin pedafile cars cause their modern and make them feel young. American non-performance cars aren't that great, whereas imports regular cars never make it hear, just their semi-performance cars (i know you dont believe me, go to japan and see what they drive, my friends sister has a 1995 45hp Subaru). Basically we dont hear about their "super" cars or their extremely bottom line cars, take ford australia for example, those are amazing cars. (believe it or not Honda makes something other then the civic and CRV, i know shocking isn't it)
Basically they're comparing neons to Focus' to Celica's to BMW's. They dont compare a corvette to a NSX or a mustang to a supra. Neons are tough little pieces of 'Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me''Kiss Me' so that gets chrysler some bonus marks and obviously a BMW is gonna blow every other car out of the water.
From personal and work experience I would have to say that each car company tends to do one or two things very well. Conversely, they all screw stuff up. This is pretty much across the board.
An example that may have cost customers for GM and Lincoln: A friend of mine is a GM man has always been a GM man... drives a Chevy Z71 fullsize as a work truck, has a Pontiac Bonny for a personal car, etc. Well, the Bonny cracked the plastic intake manifold at 50k miles. Please note that this was not a track car, it had no nitrous, no modifications, no supercharger. We are talking basic family transportation, a car you should easlily be able to put up 130-150k with no serious issues.
Well it poed him that GM would not pick up the tab for this unusual problem, so he went and test drove a Lincoln LS V6. Guess what happened, the fcking window didn't roll up on the driver side. So he gets the Bonny fixed and chalks the whole experience up to bad luck...sticks with GM. Then another 50k, actually at exactly 103K, the manifold cracked again leaving him on the side of the road. Once again GM says its not an issue!!!!!!!!!!!!
Needless to say he is looking at Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords. Note, he would have accepted everything and probably bought another GM product but their customer service ran him off!!!
So there is an example of FORD and GM screwing up with one customer at the same time.
An example that may have cost customers for GM and Lincoln: A friend of mine is a GM man has always been a GM man... drives a Chevy Z71 fullsize as a work truck, has a Pontiac Bonny for a personal car, etc. Well, the Bonny cracked the plastic intake manifold at 50k miles. Please note that this was not a track car, it had no nitrous, no modifications, no supercharger. We are talking basic family transportation, a car you should easlily be able to put up 130-150k with no serious issues.
Well it poed him that GM would not pick up the tab for this unusual problem, so he went and test drove a Lincoln LS V6. Guess what happened, the fcking window didn't roll up on the driver side. So he gets the Bonny fixed and chalks the whole experience up to bad luck...sticks with GM. Then another 50k, actually at exactly 103K, the manifold cracked again leaving him on the side of the road. Once again GM says its not an issue!!!!!!!!!!!!
Needless to say he is looking at Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords. Note, he would have accepted everything and probably bought another GM product but their customer service ran him off!!!
So there is an example of FORD and GM screwing up with one customer at the same time.
To clarify, I think the quality of US cars is generally as good as the Europeans or Japanese, but the customer service is still a long way off the mark.
I have to say VW ain't on my most wanted list either. My fiance's car is a '94 Jetta and it has not been the most reliable thing I have ever seen. She was about to drive two hours to Atlanta when the timing belt went at 70k miles during startup. Luckily, it managed not to ingest any valves. Had she been riding down the freeway, it would have been a disaster to say the least. The electrical problems are something to behold. The AC switches would burn you. And I won't even go into the whole regounding all of the connections in the engine compartment thing!!!
I have to say VW ain't on my most wanted list either. My fiance's car is a '94 Jetta and it has not been the most reliable thing I have ever seen. She was about to drive two hours to Atlanta when the timing belt went at 70k miles during startup. Luckily, it managed not to ingest any valves. Had she been riding down the freeway, it would have been a disaster to say the least. The electrical problems are something to behold. The AC switches would burn you. And I won't even go into the whole regounding all of the connections in the engine compartment thing!!!
JaysGreenLX
Founding Member
PlatinumDevil said:
NEON??? I'm sorry but those are the biggest P.O.S. cars I have ever come across. Brake problems, transmission problems, engine problems. You name it they have it. Most Chrysler products do. Next time you are behind a Caravan watch the blue smoke coming out of the tailpipe. They are notorious for that. Chrysler =
Bull crap. I drove a neon to work every day for 7 years. Got 28 mpg and it had 220k on it when it was totaled by an explorer. It still had a stong motor and I neve had one problem. FYI, I was sitting still behind a car that stopped for deer....the explorer hit me doing at least 40 mph and pushed us over 150 feet with our breaks on. The rear caved in and the seatbacks collapsed but neither myself or my wife was hurt at all. As you can expect I have much respect for a car that was that reliable and likely saved us from a world of hurt. The stories you hear about neons being pos's are bull. They have never had widespread transmission problems. They did have a head gasket issue that was resolved. On the other hand, about 10 years ago my wife had a automatic escort that had the transmission replaced 3 times before 100k. At the time we were not married so Idont attribute this as being a problem "I" have had with an American car. She never followed the mainit schedule at all so most of the problems she had were her fault. Its funny how everyone cuts on that little car but its the only car that increased in sales during chryslers darkest days.
BTW, that blue smoke is a bad head gasket. It was a poblem that you shoud not see on newer vehicles.
BTW, that blue smoke is a bad head gasket. It was a poblem that you shoud not see on newer vehicles.
There have been plenty of complaints against Mercedes. When you buy a car that expensive you expect it to be perfect. Any little problem and the owners usually complain and get it fixed.kirkyg said:
I have owned several Toyotas and have had great success with them. Very reliable cars. My mother , both sisters, a brother-in-law all own Toyotas and we wouldn't trade them in for an "American" car. Just remember some of these "foreign" cars are actually made in the USA. I think my Camry was made in the US but my 2004 4Runner was made in Japan. I love that 4Runner. Quality wise it runs circles around my wife's Liberty. Volume wise Toyota has been catching up to the Big Three real quick and the quality is great to boot.
JaysGreenLX
Founding Member
falchulk said:
Yet it still happens. My uncle had a 99 Caravan and it was blowing more blue smoke than you can shake a stick at. 45,000 miles on the ticker. That shouldn't happen.
A bad head gasket would produce white smoke. Blue smoke is from oil burning.
kirkyg
Founding Member
I fully agree and to keep going, my 87 IrocZed suspension is as tight as ever, still handles good and i daresay sticks better than my stock 325ci did. Only thing is, the f-body chassis' are wet-noodles.
My neighbour has a 03 Nissan 350 Zed and he said he is leaking coolant from the head area. When we looked at the block, sure enough there is this crack like line (possible loose head bolts) along the passenger heads.
My 97 328i had worn synchro problems which was resolved to quite an extent after i dumped in Redline. My IrocZed's (auto though)still upshifts and downshifts perfectly, holds gears as suggested by the original owner's manual. Comparatively my ex-civic tranny (also auto)felt like crap after about 70 k miles and the rear drums were shot.
My 03 Zed4 already had it's stereo/cd unit, headlight switch replaced(under warranty) during it's first 15k miles. But i think the difference is in customer service, factory warranty, maintenance, roadside assistance.
When i factor all this in my bimmer is a more "economical" buy than say a Lexus IS300.
My neighbour has a 03 Nissan 350 Zed and he said he is leaking coolant from the head area. When we looked at the block, sure enough there is this crack like line (possible loose head bolts) along the passenger heads.
My 97 328i had worn synchro problems which was resolved to quite an extent after i dumped in Redline. My IrocZed's (auto though)still upshifts and downshifts perfectly, holds gears as suggested by the original owner's manual. Comparatively my ex-civic tranny (also auto)felt like crap after about 70 k miles and the rear drums were shot.
My 03 Zed4 already had it's stereo/cd unit, headlight switch replaced(under warranty) during it's first 15k miles. But i think the difference is in customer service, factory warranty, maintenance, roadside assistance.
When i factor all this in my bimmer is a more "economical" buy than say a Lexus IS300.
Actually most of the chrysler minivans blowing blue smoke are the older models with the 3.0L V-6 which was... designed and manufactured by Mitsubishi. Those engines had terrible valve seals and all burn oil. The chrysler engines (the 3.3 / 3.8L pushrod motors or the 2.4L 4) are generally fine. Now transmissions are another story (though I think they are finally okay now).
The 2.0 and 2.4 had major head gasket problems that casued the blue smoke. That was dealt with by installing a new double thickness gasket. Unfortunately it came to late to be covered under warranty for a lot of people. It cost $800 for the dealer to open up the engine and do the work. They charged $150 for the gasket itself.
