Engine What a Conundrum we find ourselves in.

Enzio

Dang it. I was hoping mine would get 3 more inches
May 14, 2019
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Hi, It's been awhile since I've initiated a new thread.

Most of you know I'm a retired, single (divorced), old guy with a 76 Cobra II that I first bought in '78. Last fall after going on a road trip with my car I discovered that the valve guides had gone to crap and I was going to have to do a rebuild this spring. Which is kind of cool cause I get to add some new parts and HP.

I spent the winter hunting, ice fishing, and cross country skiing. The winter was awesome and has passed with the blink of my eye. I even took a vacation in January and went someplace warm for 3 weeks.

1 week ago I was skiing in far northern Minnesota having the time of my life. I returned to my home on Monday and stopped at the grocery store to stock up as my cupboards were bare.

Tuesday morning I was sitting on my couch having a cup of coffee and watching the morning news which as you all know is dominated by Covid-19 and I noticed that I had a very weird headache which would come on for a few minutes and then go away repeatedly all day and in the evening it receded. I attributed it to possible dehydration or maybe allergies. Although my allergies are mostly in the fall ragweed season.

Wednesday my eyes were itchy in the morning confirming to me that it was probably allergies. After supper my nose started to run. That made me think it was a cold.

Thursday morning 12:30AM I woke up thinking I was drowning as all the snot had collected in my throat. That was nasty. No more sleep all night and I felt miserable sneezing and coughing all day. I definitely don't have enough tissue. Sleep was not happening for another night.

Friday about mid-day I went on-line to my healthcare website and filled out the Zipnosis questionnaire about the symptoms even though I didn't have a fever. The whole process was amazingly efficient and I got a response in less than 20 minutes from an actual human. My symptoms fall within the Covid-19 threshold for the time being and I started my quarantine. I actually took a nap for the first time since I went to Kindergarten. Sleep was not going on for another night but I still didn't have a fever.

Saturday (yesterday) I slowly started to feel better and my cough lessened and turned into a dry kind of hack. My headache although slight returned but I slept straight through for 10 hours.

I woke up this morning and took my temp. It was up 2 degrees...I had no clue as I felt much better. Probably due to the much needed sleep. Nose is still runny. Cough is persistent although not too frequent. At the writing of this the temp has gone down 1 degree. I still feel like this is a cold.

The conundrum is that because there are no/not enough tests available and the stock market has tanked with no end in sight; I don't feel like I should go spend any time or money on the Cobra II.

So, all I can do is dream about what I'd like to do for my car and wait to see if I come through on the other side in one piece. Because I'm not a mechanic or up to speed on different combinations of parts; I'd like to start the conversations on what to do to my engine and when this is pandemic passes and with your help, I hope to be able to have a really solid engine ready to be put together.

Right now because I don't really know I'm thinking of using the Edelbrock E-street kit for the 289/302. I already have the manifold and the carb. That leaves the heads and cam to purchase along with the hardware. Any thoughts? Lilcbra, you have a specific list of parts you used and were at 300HP. How did you come to pick the specific parts you used? Was it some proven assembly?

Thanks,
Enzio
 
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74stang2togo

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I'm not @LILCBRA , but ElSuperPinto's engine is based on this build: http://www.mustangsandmore.com/pages/AlexsSmallBlock.html

With the addition of roller rockers, a slightly different cam, and a 670cfm carburetor instead of the 600 recommended, that combo made 267rwhp on the dyno through a C4 transmission (somewhere between 320-350 at the flywheel).

Alex Denysenko knew what the hell he was doing, he was STILL campaigning a 289 in a Pro Stock Mustang all the way up until he got sick.
 
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Enzio

Dang it. I was hoping mine would get 3 more inches
May 14, 2019
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I appreciate the response "O Mighty Mod Dude". I didn't mean any disrespect by not including you. I only wanted to start the discussion so I may learn.

This may be stupid but here goes.

How did you get to 308cid? (is it bored over a small amount?) (Did you have to increase stroke to get there?)
What does forged internals mean?
You're using roller rockers does that mean you're still using hydraulic lifters?
Which Comp Cam?
I've got a performer 289 intake. #2121 I think. That's not a RPM. How do you get that under the hood?
I don't know what D5 heads are. Cast iron? Did you have someone do the porting and polishing?
I'm not opposed at all to changing out the ignition. But, how can you have a 670 cfm carb and a MSD Atomic EFI?

Thanks,
Enzio
 
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Enzio

Dang it. I was hoping mine would get 3 more inches
May 14, 2019
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Minnesota
Okay that answers quite a bit. Probably all but again I'm not a mechanic.

What are D5 heads?
 

LILCBRA

I started this morning by knocking out some studs
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D5 is a Ford date code, D is the decade, 5 is the year. In this case it's 75. So, in the case of Fox Mustang 5.0s, when they talk of E7 heads, generally speaking, those were the HO heads available on the newly redesigned Mustang.

How I come up with my build: ages ago I had a computer program called Desktop Dyno. It allowed me to enter a whole bunch of parameters that are generally available through manufacturers specifications and it was supposed to give you an estimate that was close to real world numbers.

In my initial build I had a set of ported C5 289 heads with 1.6 and 1.94 valves. I also ran a Comp Cams 292 Magnum camshaft and standard 1.6 rocker arms. I don't recall what the exact numbers were that the program estimated my engine at, but at the time I was shooting for 1hp per cubic inch and that combo was supposed to give me that number.

Fast forward a couple years and my 1st wife put that II into a tree, sending the nose through the headers and coming VERY close to the block hitting the tree. I tore the engine down and had it all gone through and checked out again to make sure it wasn't damaged. That's when I found out that whoever ported the heads and installed the oversized valves had machined the guides slightly off center and basically caused me to destroyed the valve guides in the couple years I ran the car. So I needed new heads and saved up to buy the Trick Flows I currently have.

So back to Desktop Dyno I went. The more I thought of the cam I had at that time and how it was more geared toward higher RPM horsepower I decided to look for a cam that would give me good torque at a lower RPM while hopefully still achieving the 1hp/inch I wanted. So I went through a number of cam specs and settled on the cam I have now. It's really an RV cam designed for tow vehicles, but in a light weight car with the supporting work I decided to do it gave me what I was looking for.

So from my original rebuild which was a 68 302 from a Cougar that I had taken to a shop and had bored/honed +.030, added flat top hypereutectic pistons, and had them balance the rotating assembly, I swapped the Comp Cams for the Melling cam and changed the 1.6 rockers to 1.72 roller rockers. Otherwise the short block is identical to what I started with in the early 90s.

As for any suggestions I'd have for building your combo, my best suggestion is to decide whatever RPM that you'd like to produce power and match all of the components. Way back then I was still learning (and I'm STILL learning!) about how everything works together and produces what it does. But to put it as simply as I can think of, an engine is really just one large air pump. The more you can bring into it and expel from it, the more power you'll make. That's why superchargers and turbo chargers work, they force feed air into the engine. Naturally aspirated engines can only suck so much in, so in that case it's about how quickly that can be achieved. So you'll want to match everything otherwise one part may reach it's potential before the others and choke the rest of them before you see results.

I'm sure this is all about as clear as mud now.... Lol
 

74stang2togo

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Okay that answers quite a bit. Probably all but again I'm not a mechanic.

What are D5 heads?
Ford uses engineering/casting numbers on all of their parts.


D5 heads are heads with casting starting with "D5", in my case "D5AE".

View: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Max-Performance-Ford-V-8s-Budget/dp/1613250789
This book covers all of the bases for what to look for when it comes to finding cheap parts to build with.

This is where I found out about the really good Ford head nobody is using, and you (and most other II guys with V8s) may already have and not know how good it is yet. The D5s are every bit as good as the E7TE "5.0 HO" heads as a foundation to start with if you're going to mill, port, and polish a set of OE heads instead of investing in aftermarket heads. You'll also need to factor in the cost of a valve job, especially if you're going to run bigger valves like myself and Alex's build. These days though, Chinese aluminum heads that work as well as or better than re-worked OE iron heads and weigh half as much are available for about the same cost (or less) as having a good machinist work over your iron heads, so shop accordingly.

No joke: http://www.bpeheads.com/laborprices.htm look at how much they want for their performance multi-angle valve job... that doesn't include any other machine work to those heads! Now compare that to: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&toolid=10001&campid=5335821607&icep_item=351880220666 (For the record, I'm not advocating that particular head, I haven't done any research into that company, haven't used their products, and don't know if they're actually worth a damn, I'm just showing you an example of what is out there.) https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Flo-Tek-203505-Small-Block-Ford-Aluminum-Cylinder-Head,46332.html these are a bit more expensive, but still way cheaper than AFR or TrickFlow, and have a decent reputation, even being used in some magazine builds.


I appreciate the response "O Mighty Mod Dude". I didn't mean any disrespect by not including you. I only wanted to start the discussion so I may learn.

This may be stupid but here goes.

How did you get to 308cid? (is it bored over a small amount?) (Did you have to increase stroke to get there?)
What does forged internals mean?
You're using roller rockers does that mean you're still using hydraulic lifters?
Which Comp Cam?
I've got a performer 289 intake. #2121 I think. That's not a RPM. How do you get that under the hood?
I don't know what D5 heads are. Cast iron? Did you have someone do the porting and polishing?
I'm not opposed at all to changing out the ignition. But, how can you have a 670 cfm carb and a MSD Atomic EFI?

Thanks,
Enzio
The 308 cid was accomplished with a .040" overbore, Alex actually advocates going to 310 cid (or .060" overbore) in that article I linked, but I've had enough problems keeping three different .040" over Ford 302 engines cool over the years (and finally got it figured out with this one) that I don't necessarily agree with it.

Forged internals refers to the forged rods and pistons. I probably wasted money there, as I never sprayed it or boosted it, but that was originally one of the long-term goals.

Still running hydraulic lifters and the cam is this guy: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-31-238-3 which gives an idle that sounds like this: View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwODyOvPR5s
and is one of the two reasons this engine makes so much power for an iron-headed pig. (The other being the re-worked heads).

I had someone do all the work to the heads on my car. He passed away a few years back, his name was Stanley, and he was a damned good machinist. Trying to find your own "Stanley" may be difficult in this day and age, as machinists aren't what they used to be since the good ones have died or retired, and the young ones aren't being trained as well or to do as much in this age of throwaway vehicles where everything is just scrapped and replaced. If I had my career to do over, I'd have gone to school to be a machinist instead of becoming an automotive technician.

I didn't have a 670 carburetor and the EFI. It was run on a chassis dyno with the carburetor years before I switched to EFI. I would honestly not recommend the 670, it was always a little too big, but I got it for free. I later stepped down to a 600cfm Edelbrock, then back up to a 650cfm Edelbrock, and then went EFI. As far as ignition goes, don't waste your money on an MSD setup unless you want the rev limiter, it's not that much better than running something like a Davis Unified HEI, or a Pertronix upgraded points distributor, or even a simplified setup like this: https://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,33759.msg376377.html which is small enough to be mounted virtually anywhere, and uses your factory duraspark distributor without the crappy Duraspark module. If you can find an aluminum heat sink (like those used on computer CPUs) to mount it to, you could even hide it in an area with low airflow.

As far as hood clearance with the Edelbrock Performer RPM... well... in my case, it didn't. The problem for me is that I'm running an 8-quart Milodon oil pan. That means I have 1" spacers between my motor mounts and my engine block so the pan can clear the crossmember and rack-and-pinion. Without the spacers, a drop-base air cleaner with a 2" tall element should clear. As it is, my current setup looks like this with the stock hood (forgive how filthy it is... I really should do something about that):
20200306_174902.jpg

That cold-air intake is actually a hodge-podge of parts (like so much of the rest of my car). The hat on the throttle body is actually an OEM Jeep part from a 5.2L Grand Cherokee (a 1995 if I remember correctly). The silicone adapter and aluminum tube are from a company called BAFAI (which literally stands for Best Air Filter Air Intake, I :poo: you not) that I picked up on Amazon for $31, and the air filter came with my buddy Kenneth's Procharger kit for his Mach1, but he already had a fenderwell-mounted cold air he connected to the supercharger instead and gave me the air filter that came with the kit.

I have no idea how such a setup would work with a carburetor (it might mess with the air signal through the venturis), but I have seen people run cold air intakes of similar design on carbureted applications. I may return to a more traditional air filter when I finish the manual rack-and-pinion swap and rebuild my motor mounts with bstang71s kit, as that should let me eliminate the 1" spacers on the motor mounts.

There's other ways to make big power from a 302. For the guy that wants to craft an engine the old-fashioned way, Alex's 300hp build is one hell of a way to get there, with an engine that ends up looking mostly stock to the unaware. There's also the junkyard fox-body short block (or Explorer short block with a different cam) and a set of high-dollar heads and rockers method: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ford-302-v8-engine-buildup/

There's also the stock fox-body long-block and spray nitrous at it (assuming forged pistons, of course).

No matter how you look at it, an engine is an air pump, and you've got to pump more air through it to make more power. On a 302, (like so many other engines designed before CAD), the heads are the restrictive part, which is why there's so many articles like this one: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-1302-six-budget-ford-heads-that-work/ and Alex and many other gurus who's stuff I've read and followed over the years focus on the heads.

My way isn't the only way, and my word isn't gospel. I just liked the idea of doing it that way when I learned a lot of the things I've learned from reading, listening, and doing over the years.

(But whatever you do, don't go with MSD's EFI system, it kinda sucks!)
 
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74stang2togo

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How I come up with my build: ages ago I had a computer program called Desktop Dyno. It allowed me to enter a whole bunch of parameters that are generally available through manufacturers specifications and it was supposed to give you an estimate that was close to real world numbers.
Oh God, Desktop Dyno!

That program was the :poo:! I got a bootleg of it off of Limewire way back when because I didn't want to pay the fortune Mr. Gasket wanted for it at the time. I used to play with the numbers trying to figure out what little things I could do to a 2.3L 4-banger in my '74 II to make any kind of power compared to what it had.
 
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LILCBRA

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It came pretty close to what the dyno results were when I finally got it there too! I used to have the program on an external hard drive so I could mess with it again but the damned hard drive gave up the ghost a few months ago. Now it's gone forever - unless I wanna fork over the $ for another copy -IF they still make it!!?
 
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74stang2togo

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Enzio

Dang it. I was hoping mine would get 3 more inches
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I'm smiling for the first time since I was skiing a week ago. If you don't mind I'm going to read all this and ask a bunch of what you may think are stupid questions. Please bear with me.

If you can imagine, I'm not used to sitting on my ass bored out of my skull with a daughter and girlfriend hovering 10 feet away through the door making me crazy.

I know a very good machinist who should retire but is having too much fun building racing engines. So that's a good thing.

I'll be back.
 

LILCBRA

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Ok, I lied - the horsepower number was off, but the torque value was pretty close if you consider the 15% drivetrain loss....
Screenshot_20200322-172035.jpg
 
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Enzio

Dang it. I was hoping mine would get 3 more inches
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lilcbra, the video didn't come through I'll jump over to YT and watch it there. I'm one of your subs.
 
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LILCBRA

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lilcbra, the video didn't come through I'll jump over to YT and watch it there. I'm one of your subs.
I just took a screenshot of the description so you'd have to go to YouTube to watch it if you want.
 
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Enzio

Dang it. I was hoping mine would get 3 more inches
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My Heads are C9TE. Don't know if I should just toss them and try for some 351W's and have them machined instead. I think Alex said that would add 30-40 HP.
Gotta read now.
 

LILCBRA

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I'm not 100% sure on this, but it seems that Ford used the same heads on 351W engines as they did 302s from sometime in the 70s and on. I think the only exception was the head bolt clearance holes. I could be wrong, I have no idea - haven't researched it at all. I know the earlier heads had larger valves to accommodate the extra cubic inches that the 351 had, but I thought they just used the same heads after a certain point, mainly to keep production costs down...? If that's the case you'd need to find some earlier 351W heads, OR go with a set of Explorer GT40 heads which, if memory serves, flow better than early 351W heads anyway.

But like @74stang2togo says, you my be a little further ahead going with an aftermarket aluminum head. The FlowTek head that he linked held up to some of the bigger named and more expensive heads out there in a magazine comparison.

 
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74stang2togo

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I'm not 100% sure on this, but it seems that Ford used the same heads on 351W engines as they did 302s from sometime in the 70s and on. I think the only exception was the head bolt clearance holes. I could be wrong, I have no idea - haven't researched it at all. I know the earlier heads had larger valves to accommodate the extra cubic inches that the 351 had, but I thought they just used the same heads after a certain point, mainly to keep production costs down...? If that's the case you'd need to find some earlier 351W heads, OR go with a set of Explorer GT40 heads which, if memory serves, flow better than early 351W heads anyway.

But like @74stang2togo says, you my be a little further ahead going with an aftermarket aluminum head. The FlowTek head that he linked held up to some of the bigger named and more expensive heads out there in a magazine comparison.

It honestly depended on the application... and whether or not Ford just slapped a new number on an old head for it's new application due to some miniscule design change.

The E7TE head, for instance, is really just a 351W truck head with minor changes.

My Heads are C9TE. Don't know if I should just toss them and try for some 351W's and have them machined instead. I think Alex said that would add 30-40 HP.
Gotta read now.
If you have a good machinist who can do all the work to them including upgrading them for screw-in studs (for roller rockers and guideplates, which have gotten so cheap thanks to Scorpion, among others, that there's no reason not to) those C9s are a GREAT place to start if you want to keep it looking stock-ish. Otherwise, sell them to someone like me (but not actually me, I'm broke! :rlaugh: ) that wants to build one old-school, or do a restoration of a late 60s/early70s Ford and needs a good iron head like that (those C9s don't have the best runners, but they've got big-ish valves for a Ford head, and 58.3cc chambers that make for good compression before they've even been touched by a machinest or porter). If you sell them, prices on Ebay are all over the place right now, but range from $30 from someone who has no idea what he's sitting on, to $500 for a rebuilt pair (average used is about $150 a pair at the moment). You can use that money towards aluminum heads if you want to lose some weight on the front of the car and make engine cooling easier (and pick up more horsepower).
 
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extra_stout

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I'm a big fan of using late model engines e.g. the 5.0 HO from a FoxMustang (was continued for two years in the SN95). Here you get the details between the years:
http://phystutor.tripod.com/stang/engines/50.html
In my opinion it is the most bang for the bug, if you get a low milage (less then 100.000 :)) one as a complete package.
What are the advantages in my opinion:
- best combination of ring material and bore surface quality
- low friction hydraulic roller setup, which gives you very fast opening valves even with the factory cam (which has the advantage of not to crazy cam duartion, and gives you good low and very good mid-range torque)
- one piece rear main seal
- okayish flowing head E7TE

For the use in my MII I did get an 2000 explorer, which has a smaller cam, but better heads (GT40p). GT40P have e different spark plug angle, which will make issues with headers or manifolds. But there are Explorer engines which have the GT40 head, which has the "old" spark plug angle...

You can transfer from your old engine all the accessoires to the "new" stripped down short/long block.

I'm not sure how the prices are for such engines at the moment, but I think they should be around. It's perhaps a bit more then just a head, but it ´'s worth it in my opinion as a basis.

If you want to turn them up (directly or later), for the 5.0 Mustang I would upgrade to the AFR 165 heads (just the heads).
If it was about tp upgrade the explorer engine I would do this: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/make-503hp-with-a-350-junkyard-302/

I'm not so familiar with your car. Are you running still the original 4-speed transmission? And are you using stock manifolds or headers?