Which uses more gas; High throttle at low RPM or low throttle at high RPM?

85_SS_302_Coupe

it sucks (I know) to be on the receiving end
15 Year Member
Nov 11, 2003
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For example. Let's say you're driving up a steep hill, and you've gotta give it a good amount of pedel just to keep your speed, this would be high throttle at low RPM, or more torque than hp.


Or, let's say you're driving like normal, and instead of shifting at low RPM, you let the RPMs rise slowly to 3500ish or higher before you shift.


I'm assuming that as far as wear on the car goes, the low RPM torque would be harder on the drivetrain, where as the high RPM hp would be harder on the motor, right? I'm just thinking about the differences in how i drive and which way could save me more gas; If i shift at low RPM and let the bottom end torque make the speed, or if i slowly ride out each gear to 35-4000RPM and then shift?
 
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considering when u drive a mustang u dont need to downshift when climbing a hill unlike the 4-bangers, u can use the low end torque to climb a hill. fuel consumption depends on how often u put the pedel to the floor......if the pedals to the floor then fuel injectors will spray all they can to keep up with the air flow into the engine, but if just barly press then pedal the car isnt getting as much gas. basicly id think if ur always driving hard or have the pedal down all the time ur going to go through gas faster, if u drive easy, u wont go through gas as fast.

personaly if ur so worried about gas milage, dont drive a mustang, go bye a mazda 323 or somthing that gets 30 mpg, other wise ur not going to save a whole lot.
 
i think you would get more mileage shifting sooner and using less pedal.

i shift at 2000-2200 rpm's in every gear and do around 1800 rpm's on the freeway with my 3:55's (low od, and 18's). i just got the transmission with the lower freeway rpm's and last tank i easily made over 300 mpg. i think i filled up at 310 and still had 2 gallons left.
 
blkstangman88 said:
personaly if ur so worried about gas milage, dont drive a mustang, go bye a mazda 323 or somthing that gets 30 mpg, other wise ur not going to save a whole lot.


LOL, think so?

When you only have a 12 gallon tank, 4.10 gears, and you drive 30 miles ONE direction to work, then saving so much as 1 mile per gallon is a lot. Just because i'm curious about getting better gas mileage doesnt mean i should buy a POS mileage getter does it?


if ur so worried about gas milage

You say that like i'm haunted by it, and i'm just beating myself down trying to get better mileage. :rlaugh: It's just a simple question. If you could run a 12 second car and get 20+mpg, wouldnt you be interested?

Why does everyone freak out and tell people "you shouldnt be driving a Mustang if you're so concerned about gas mileage" just when you try to conserve gas? :rolleyes:
 
BTW, going up a hill does require more throttle, reguardless of whether you downshift or not, because the motor has to rely on the low end torque to get up it and it's going to burn more gas to make that torque.


Also, the higher RPM before shifting doesnt require more throttle, because all you need to do is ride each gear out longer at the same amount of throttle. At least to me it feels like i have to give the car more gas at lower RPMs to get up to speed as compared to when i ride out the gears.


The reason i'm curious, is that i usually drive a Cherokee as my DD. It gets about 16mpg which isnt very great, considering when i drive easy my stang gets about 15 or so, and that's with all the mods and the gear, and it's still carbureted. That's pretty cool to me, especially if i can widdle down another mile or 2 per gallon. That means i can drive my 'stang more often.
 
z9_87 said:
to me it would make sense that shifting at lower rpm's would save gas since the higher rpm's mean the injectors are firing more often then at lower. right?


That probably applies for EFI, but is it the same for a carb'ed car? I'd think the jets spray at the same amount on a carb. Eventually depending on how much throttle it's given, it would stop rising in RPMs though. :shrug:
 
Well, since you have the stock carb with vacuum secondaries, then I would think the more throttle going up a hill would take more gas.....maily because the 4 barrels are probably opening from a lot of load being on the engine. The "slowly rising the rpm and shifting high" wouldn't even open the 4 barrels.
 
maverick0716 said:
Well, since you have the stock carb with vacuum secondaries, then I would think the more throttle going up a hill would take more gas.....maily because the 4 barrels are probably opening from a lot of load being on the engine. The "slowly rising the rpm and shifting high" wouldn't even open the 4 barrels.


Ya know this is a little off topic, but something's up with my vac. secondary anyways, i've gotta mash the throttle to get it open. I think i might have a vaccum leak or something. My car is really tame untill you give it close to full throttle, then the ass breaks out all over the place...lol
 
It's all in the math...

Cubic inch displacement/2 x RPM x (vacuum gauge reading divided by barometer reading).
For example: 302/2 x 2000 RPM x (24" manifold pressure divided by 29" barometric pressure)
The term “manifold pressure” is borrowed for aviation as a measure of the outside air pressure compared to the air pressure inside the engine’s intake manifold. It represents the drop in air pressure across the throttle & associated plumbing.

The numbers look like this:
302/2=151 (only half the cylinders are on intake stroke every revolution)

151 x 2000 RPM = 30200 cubic inches per minute of airflow

30200 (24" manifold pressure divided by 29" barometric pressure) with the throttle at or near WOT, the cylinders pull more air
30200 x .82 = 24993 cubic inches per minute

Figure in the fuel/air ratio…
A/F= 13:1, so divide 24993 by 13 and you get 1922
The number 1922 is not an absolute measurement like gallons or liters, but a number for comparison.

Now, let’s try some more…
302/2 x 4000 RPM x (12" manifold pressure divided by 28" barometric pressure)

302/2 = 151 (only half the cylinders are on intake stroke every revolution)

151 x 4000 = 60400 cubic inches per minute of airflow

60400 x (12" manifold pressure divided by 29" barometric pressure)
60400 x .41 = 25972 - more airflow here since there is more RPMs

Figure in the fuel/air ratio…
A/F= 13:1, so divide 25972 by 13 = 1997
The number 1997 is not an absolute measurement like gallons or liters, but a number for comparison.

It’s almost a dead heat… 1922 (2000 RPM @ 82% throttle) compared to 1997 (4000 RPM @ 43% throttle)


Maybe some of the engineering guys can correct my theory or math… By playing with the manifold pressure, the whole picture can change dramatically
 
88SC_GT said:
i think you would get more mileage shifting sooner and using less pedal.

i shift at 2000-2200 rpm's in every gear and do around 1800 rpm's on the freeway with my 3:55's (low od, and 18's). i just got the transmission with the lower freeway rpm's and last tank i easily made over 300 mpg. i think i filled up at 310 and still had 2 gallons left.

Interesting...I have an AOD and 3:27 gears and 16's at 65 miles per hour I'm doing about 2400 r's. Plus I only get about 200 miles to the tank, (fairly stock motor). Wonder what my mileage will be with the 3:73's I'm hoping to purchase soon. :spot:
 
Ok, let me make it easy for you. I know what he meant, and mathematically he's right, although real world can be a bit different (and a whole lot simpler thank God) I agree with him- as usual- so here i'goes: First of all, let me validate my upcoming points by saying that I drive with a vaccuum gauge mounted in my pillar pod, right above my full sweep fuel pressure gauge. This gives me an almost 100% accurate picture of how much fuel I'm using. Until I installed this setup, I asked myself the same question you are. Now I know. The vaccuum pressure, conveniently, is almost directly related to how much fuel is getting dumped, a theory proved by the FP gauge. When the engine is under load, it will get the best mileage when it's within it's powerband- usually higher R's. When my engine is pulling me along with little or no load (cruising and downhill), my FP is at 40psi and vac is around 15-20 psi (good mileage/idling). When I'm driving uphill as in your hypothetical scenario, in 4th gear 2000 rpm (40 mph) my vaccum pressure drops to 0 psi to maintain speed, and FP increases to 48psi (pump working full blast). If I casually downshift to 3rd, the R's swing smoothly up to 3000, and I can maintain 40mph and the vac will only drop to around 10psi, and the FP will only go up to 41psi. The same is true in any gear. With my combo, my powerband doesn't really start until around 3000 rpm, so this makes sense. Yours may be different. However, I suggest anyone who is remotely concerned about mileage do the same and install a vac gauge in the cockpit- it will teach you to drive very differently and fine tune your throttle foot way beyond what you thought it needed. You can see throttle changes on that gauge that you can't even feel. If it goes below 10psi, you're really sucking it down. Additionally, it is an ideal tool for diagnosing many problems. Your FP# will be different with a carb, but the vac #'s are still relevent, as is my explanation. With any 5.0, it should be the same deal- your best mileage will be where the most HP is, as this is when the engine is doing the least amount of work too get the job done. Usually, less throttle and higher RPM shifts will stretch your tank the farthest. By driving by my vac gauge, I picked up 2mpg.
 
Well, depends on how much of a "push" you get from either.

If flooring it (without downshifting) gets the car more push, then you're using more fuel. If downshifting gives you more push, then you're using more fuel.
 
stangbear427

That basically sums up what i was thinking, in a bit more of a scientific way than i would have put it, but that's really interesting. I may PM you some questions about those gauges some time, i think i'd like to hook up something like that.

So basically, since i've got a carbed motor it's bound to be somewhat different but still similar. If i don't use a lot of pedel to accelerate, and wind out each gear, i'm more likely to burn less fuel.
 
I'll throw in a slightly different look at it. There are 2 main (many others, but they're smaller in magnitude) losses that contribute to the engine's inefficiency. The first is pumping losses - the force the engine has to overcome when the throttle is closed or partially closed (manifold vacuum is present) in order to draw air into the cylinders. The second is frictional losses - these increase with rpm. Both of these have an impact on volumetric efficiency - the engine's ability to fill the cylinder and create cylinder pressure - it varies with throttle position and rpm (function of heads/cam/intake/exhaust/etc.). I've read many tests where the best gas mileage was obtained by short shifting and opening the throttle as far as possible in a higher gear at low rpm. Low rpm minimizes frictional losses, and opening the throttle all the way reduces pumping losses. If you're operating the engine in a way that reduces the losses, you'll get better gas mileage. That means leave it in a higher gear, and step on the gas more. Sort of counterintuitive, but it's a fact.

Ran some tests in my wife's car to see the influence gear/rpm/throttle position had on mileage. On a long Interstate run (constant temps, long enough runs - 15-20 miles - to neutralize terrain) I compared running in 4th gear at different speeds on the cruise control to running in 5th on the cruise at the same speeds. Compared mileages in 4th and 5th gear running at a steady 60 mph, 65 mph and 70 mph. At 60 mph, mileage in 5th gear was about 5% better than in 4th gear. At 65 mph it was about 7% better in 5th than 4th. At 70 mph it was about 10% better in 5th than 4th. I had to open the throttle further in 5th (reduced pumping losses), and rpm was about 20% lower in 5th than in 4th (reduced frictional losses).

Obviously there's a limit - if you're turning the engine so low with such a big load that you're lugging the engine - you need to downshift. But generally speaking, stay in the higher gear, and open the throttle more and you'll get better mileage than if you downshift - provided you're not lugging the engine.
 
85_SS_302_Coupe said:
So basically, since i've got a carbed motor it's bound to be somewhat different but still similar. If i don't use a lot of pedal to accelerate, and wind out each gear, i'm more likely to burn less fuel.
Basically, yes. The the main difference with the carb is fuel pressure, as carbs tend to run on 10-20psi of FP to achieve the same thing EFI does with 36-50psi. Maybe the venerable Mr.Yount will step in here to clarify why as I'm not sure I can explain it, but I'll chalk it up to EFI being so much more efficient that it can run at the higher pressures and get better mileage, and leave it at that. However, the fine tuned pedal foot is the best tool either way, and a vac gauge is the best way to train it. You won't necessarily have to wind out every gear, just shift high enough that you won't drop below your power band. Particularly on takeoffs, it can seem like you take forever getting up to speed before you get used to it, and learn exactly where your power band really is by watching the needle swing. This is the best way to determine at a glance how much fuel your using at any given time, as evidenced by the fact that it is being used for that express purpose with many new higher end OEM's. Any car that has a digital gauge telling you your instant MPG is run off vacuum pressure, just like mine. Usually they are fancy enough to have other modes that tell you what your average mpg is or has been, but the mode that tells you on the fly that you're getting 2mpg while stomping dads Northstar Caddy or 50mpg idling down a hill is just a vacuum gauge, plain and simple.
Mr.Yount's opposing point was also valid. On some cars, there can be mileage gained by short shifting. One other thing to consider when employing this technique however is that the infamous "quarter mile tune up" came into being specifically because people drove this way. Never picking up the R's allowed a build up of crud, and so they required a good hammering to clean them out. Yount probably remembers this- back in the 60's and 70's, old farts who never drove over 30mph would bring the families huge 400ci Buick in running like crap, and the young punk in the shop would squirt a little something in the carb (whatever horrible chemical passed for a makeshift detox agent back then) and take it out back and redline blast up and down the train tracks a few times and hand it back running like a top. (the good ol' days?) Engines do need to run the safe zone through the R's regularly, especially our H.O. variants. When I was driving my '84 GT (5.0, 4bbl 5spd), there was a 5 lane 1/2mile bridge on my 15 mile commute to work. That car ran best when I was short shifting the first 12 miles and then taching it out on the bridge every morning. 180,000 miles and it purred like a kitten and got great mileage in spite of my daily bridge indiscretions.
 
85SS said "So basically, since i've got a carbed motor it's bound to be somewhat different but still similar. If i don't use a lot of pedal to accelerate, and wind out each gear, i'm more likely to burn less fuel."

My conclusion is the opposite. Shift sooner, keep the revs lower and open the throttle more - you'll less fuel that way. All this assumes you're under acceleration, headed up a hill, loading the engine. Once steady state speed is achieved, stay in the highest gear possible that will allow you to maintain your speed without lugging. That's true for naturally aspirated gasoline engines with efi. Diesels have no throttle, so just staying easy on the gas and keeping the revs down conserves fuel best in them. When boost is involved with gasoline engines, all sorts of things happen to fuel use when boost pressures rise - even at low rpm - mixture is usually made rich to help cool the chamber and reduce detonation. So for boosted vehicles, staying out of the boost as much as possible is the best way to conserve fuel. With a carb - it's hard to say. I think it probably depends on how wasteful the accelerator pump circuit is. If it's set to deliver a really big dollop of extra fuel when you depress the pedal, you might be better off staying out of the throttle as much as possible.

It's important to note that cars only use a very small fraction of the power available in most street driving. If you were driving a gasoline powered truck with a BIG load - so you really had to stay on the gas to accelerate it and maintain speed up hills, strategy would be slightly different. If you're using all the power available to you, then to use the least fuel you'd want to try and keep the engine in it's peak range of volumetric efficiency - which usually occurs around the torque peak rpm. But that's a fairly useless piece of info in most street driving because the engine only has to produce a very small amount of power - and going up to the torque peak will incur frictional losses because the revs are higher, and pumping losses because the throttle would be barely open at those revs with a very light load.

Stangbear - most carbs only want 4-7 psi fuel pressure - but the pressure has nothing to do with the way fuel is delivered into the engine in the way it does with efi systems. With an injector, the computer tells the injector how long to pulse - or open up. If you put a higher pressure behind the same pulse time, more fuel will be injected. Lower pressure = less fuel. Of course, pressure changes get 'adjusted' by the O2 feedback and adjustment strategies in the ecu. So if you jack the pressure up to put more fuel in, if the O2's are reading that as too rich, the ecu will simply reduce the pulse time in order to bring the mixture back where it wants it.

On a carb, the pressure simply fills the float bowl with fuel. When the float is raised enough, it closes the needle valve which shuts off flow to the bowl. Pressure differential is what pushes fuel into the jet/throat of the carb. The fuel bowl is vented so that atmospheric pressure is pushing down on the fuel. The jets are in the venturi/throat of the carb and they are subject to a lower pressure than atmospheric by virtue of the flowing air through them. That pressure differential varies proportionally to the amount of air flowing through the throat. So the more you open the throttle, the more air moves through the throat, the lower the pressure is. As the pressure in the throat continues to drop more and more - below atmospheric pressure - atmospheric pressure is able to push more and more fuel into the jets - which gets drawn into the carb throat. All changing the fuel pressure does is: 1) if you make it higher, the fuel bowl gets refilled more quickly, and the needle valve/float has to work to close against a higher pressure. At some point you may overcome the float's ability to shut if off and flood the bowl. Not good, 2) if you make it lower, it may not flow enough fuel to meet the loads of the engine when the fuel bowl is being emptied rapidly. But as you can see, that has nothing to do with the air pressure diffentials that cause fuel to be pushed through the jets into the throat of the carb.

Oh - I remember the old "Italian tuneup" days well. Back in the day, dad would have his car tuned up about every 10K miles. And it would run really bad for about the last 2500 of those miles - hard starts, missing, poor gas mileage. It was like getting a new car back from the shop when he'd have it tuned. They would load up with carbon, foul plugs, etc.

Things have changed so much since then however, as you know. Today's efi engines with high energy ignitions don't really care too much how you drive them - hard or not. Most plugs last between 60K and 100K. Fuel injection (because of emissions control) has become so precise that there isn't anywhere near as much stuff to foul up the chamber as there used to be. It certainly doesn't hurt to vary the revs and 'clean one out' every now and again. But it's no where near as helpful as it used to be. At 65K I pulled the plugs out of my wife's Bimmer. As I looked at the replacements and looked at the 7 year old/65K plugs coming out, other than the grime on the threads, I couldn't tell much difference. It was certainly a "guilt change" and nothing more. Couldn't tell one bit of difference after the change. A testament to the efficiencies of today's systems. And that's a 97 model. The 2004 stuff is even better.