Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by rpm182000, Jan 11, 2007.
Does anyone know of any companies that sell 5.0 programers for the computers?
What is it you are trying to do?
Have you tuned other cars before? Or first time?
How modified is your 5.0?
Not that moddified, but I will be doin some modifications in the future. I was just curious if any companies made them for future referance.
I haven't tuned comp.s before, but my cuz has and he'd help me so I get it right.
Anderson Ford Motorsports makes the PMS which is around 900 bucks I think
These are probably the most common tuners used on the EEC-IV Mustangs.
1) TwEECer / TwEECer RT - http://www.tweecer.com/
2) Anderson PMS - http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/
3) Moates - http://www.moates.net/
These are listed in what I think to be most common to least common.
The tweecer allows datalogging, which is an incredibly powerful feature. It is the only product I am aware of that will allow you to not only datalog sensors, but also internal ecu values, like KAMRF's, LAMBDA, etc.
The tweecer is a programable module that plugs into the ecu. You can write a modified tune to the module, which will over ride the calibration in the factory eec.
I don't know a lot of detail about the PMS, so I will leave that for some one who has direct experience.
Moates is probably the least expensive, and will probably be tougher to learn how to use.
Another good resource is the 5.0 Tuning forum here. We have addressed this topic a couple of times there, so some old threads may have some helpful info for you.
Let us know if you have questions...
Thx I apreciate the info.
Jason, I cant remember if you have a PMS tutorial in your sub-forum, but there is one in the 94-95 subforum in case anyone wants to peruse it.
Don't waste your money on any 5.0 tuner. They don't do anything to a NA 5.0 that you can't do with the twist of the dis or a turn of the FP.
Respectfully speaking, I'm not sure I agree. There are a ton of wonderful things that can be done to fine tune things and improve upon the stock parameters.
I'll agree that a tuner isnt often needed on mild stock fox III (I won't include 94-95's in that at all. Their OEM tune sucks), but that's not to say that there isn't room for improvement.
I think a little clarification of commonly used terminology is in order.
A 'tuner' is a kit consiting of hardware and software, which by definition allows the user to re-calibrate multiple settings in the ECU.
Settings like the MAF Transfer, CID scalar, Min ECT for CL, Injector sizes, etc.
The tweecer, PMS, Moates, etc all are considered 'tuners'
An off the shelf chip will typically act the way you describe.
Most will just advance the timing, and possible increase Inj PW durations through a little trickery.
Unfortunately I don't have any info on the PMS on my site.
Not a bad idea though... A little feature comparison between the tweecer, pms, moates, sneec-iv, aem, etc.
I might have something to do tomorrow now...
Wait, you mean the 5.0 Tuning sub-forum here on stangnet.
It is hard to find, so here is a link...
There may be some general info on the PMS in there, but I don't think there is much.
Funny, some times I feel like I am the only one that checks that forum...
This is a shopping thread but also deals with a lot of information pertaining to 5oh tuning.
--Thread moved to 5oh Tuning--
So I dont need a programer or a tuning program?
I am new here so ive been settin here in the background reading and trying to make some sense of the TUNE topic. So most of you guys are stating that unless i Add a supercharger or other power adder that i dont need a tuner or programmer for my ecu? I am currently building my first(i am a chevy convert) mustang its a 85 coupe converted to 89 efi 331 forged bottom end, gt40x heads, fmsf cam, gt40 tube intake, fuel pre reg, 24 # injectors, bbk 70mm tb & 75mm maf, walhbro 255 pump and a stock a9 cpu. I have a D 1 Supercharger and am pulling my parts for it together to add it to the car in the fall. Can you guys give me some advice on what i need for tuning on my car when i add the blower? I know the typical things like the bigger injectors/ maf, and throttlebody but how bout the tune/tuner program? Any help would be appreciated!
Friday I am ordering the Tweecer RT for my Mustang.
I don't agree with the statement of just because the motor is lightly modded you don't need it tuned. I have looking into "Tuners" now for a while and looking at the things that can be changed and you need to change.
The Stock settings in the computer just are going to read the right values if things are changed, I have 24# injectors and a 76mm C&L MAF calibrated for them. According to the stock MAF the most the air that the computer thinks will flow through the MAF is 828 Kg/hr at the max and even if the C&L is changed for 24#'s that number isn't going to change, I got the flow sheets from C&L and the MAF I have will flow just about 2000 Kg/hr at the max, that's a huge difference that will make more horsepower.
I'm getting the Tweecer RT for the fact that I want to change everything and I WANT CONTROL over the computer rather than leaving it to someone else. There is a learning curve, but I mean it's not rocket science and if you will take the time to read and understand what the computer is doing it's really not that hard.
Interesting, you use a C&L meter, and a $500+ tuner, quite the contradiction.
Sounds like you are expecting more than you are going to get. Buy a good 80mm pmas meter and save alot of money and headaches.
I've seen it all on the dyno in person, people with these personal tuning devices generally make their car worse, not better. And if it is better, it's not by much.
I've actually even seen a fox that made 625rwhp on the stock computer, ran fine, loaded up a bit on idle, so a chip was burnt to fix that, and that only. But it was a wild setup, with low boost for what the supercharger was capable of.
Not sure why you guys think the fox computer is so restrictive, it's not. The 03 cobra brought this tuning craze out, but it really doesn't apply the same way to cars 93 and older.
As i said above, twist the dis and turn the FP and the car will make just as much power and driveability if it's put together right.
You know what your right, it's is a contradiction, but at the time I really wasn't thinking that I was going to get a tuner. I thought that if I just got a maf that worked with my injectors that I would be fine. I have (slight) drivability issues it bucks every once in while during regular crusing (fixed everything that has been wrong), the idle jumps around a bit at start up for about 30 secs or so, it's running pig rich at idle and I really don't think that the A/F ratio is right through out the power band. All this among other things that I have noticed.
So do I think that I need the car tuned to be able to drive and have better performance? Yes, but I don't want to be at the mercy of some guy at the dyno shop that I don't know telling me what I want.
Learning a computer program isn't rocket science, if I take the time to learn the program and read as much as I can on it, I'm willing to do the trial and error to get the car running right with going to the dyno and making sure what I'm doing is right.
Dyno guys aren't all that bad, not sure if you had a bad experience or not. You have to find someone you trust. By the time you are done with a tuning device, data logger equipment wideband, it's what around $750? That's about 4 dyno tunes at some places.
Do whatever you like, it's your car, but me personally i'd rather spend that money elsewhere.
Welcome to :SNSign:
2000xp8 and 90blueGT are making some good points in their discussion, but I don't want to jump into that debate.
Here are some other thoughts...
If you are going to take on the task of tuning your own car, then start learning the software BEFORE you add boost to the equation. First, it will give you time to learn the software and the basics of tuning. Second, it will give you a chance to hammer out any tuning issues you may have, without having to deal with the boost.
In general you want to keep the tuning basic and controlled. Making several big changes at once is how you will get in trouble.
Here is something else to consider...
Each time you add an aftermarket part to the motor, the ecu gets a little farther from being 'correct'
That isn't to say that the motor won't run, but it won't drive like stock and make the full potential of power for the parts.
Each of the following add a certain amount of error to the AFR and Load calculations in the ecu...
The factory A9* ecu can flex the AFR by +/-12.5%. If the AFR is still out of whack after that 12.5%, then out of whack it stays.
My point is that each part added from the above list takes you closer to being out of range of the adaptive ability of the ecu.
If chosen well, the above parts will *usually* get the motor to run fairly well.
This is not a given though... and you don't have to accept the drivability issues that most folks seem to think is just part of having a built motor.
One more thought for 90bluegt-
Once you have played with the tweecer and the C&L a little you will probably find that you will have a hard time getting the KAMRF's to settle out. This is most likely due to the C&L meter being a little hoky.
The cheapest and coincidentally the BEST MAF alternative for tuners is the 90mm LMAF. This meter has better sampling technology, a more accurate MAF Transfer, and can be found for $80.
I am working out all the little details to run this on my 410w once I put the motor back together, but it has been done and ALL have reported excellent results.
Sorry for the longwinded post...
Okay what about the 95' 5.0. I have one with a few bolt ons, and the timing was advanced by the previous owner. The car runs incredibly rich. Should i have it dyno tunned or would the Tweecer be a better use of my money.
A $15 day at the track, AFPR, fuel pressure gauge and timing gun yields the best results of all.