a few 440 big block conversion ?'s

[90lxcoupe]

Pimp Juice I wasnt talking about lil john's pimp juice BTW.

Also it is rumored that the LS motor was an option to ford, but they chose to go modular, i believe this to a point and one of the big factors that makes me think its true is the fact that windsor and LS heads share the same bolt pattern, thats a pretty big coincidence

 

[stykthyn]

I have heard that before. The powers that be werent interested in pushrod technology anymore. OHC was the way of the future.

 

[90lxcoupe]

I have heard that before. The powers that be werent interested in pushrod technology anymore. OHC was the way of the future.

that was a smart move...

 

[stykthyn]

you're telling me. I hate OHC crap, its why I dont have a newer stang.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

No, you cant. a 6.0 will make 550 hp without breathing hard, it would take at least a 393w to make that power NA, and by the time you buy a block have the machine work done and the stroker kit, your gonna be in it for at least $3000, then you still have to buy a whole top end.

Yeah....probably a 393....I was going to say 408ci or so, but again, what's your point? And you're complaining about $3,000 to build it? Exactly what's a new LS3 crate engine worth? Or are we comparing the cost of a used GM mill, to new Ford parts again? Cause...you know that's always a fair comparison.

If your building a car worth its weight in pimp juice, then your going to replace all that stuff anyways, who making over 500 hp dosent have a custom fuel system(which you dont need for an LS swap BTW, you can use most of the stock lines), exhaust, aluminum radiator, the list goes on.

Again...I fail to see the point. All you've proven to me with the above statements thus far after all is said and done, is that you've spent more time and money and done more work adding the GM mill to the Ford chassis to make the same amount of horsepower.

I get it, you dont like crossbreeding, thats fine, really dosent bother me, but saying its cheaper just isnt true, its much more work making power from a windsor based motor. If you dont believe me just look at the 09 engine masters challenge, one team had a 6L LS that they re-used the bearings in, used a GM head and were competitive with it, and they were going up against motors that would probly cost 20k to build

Much more work?!?! Let's see....stroker rotating assembly, AFR 185-205 heads (or any of about half a dozen other castings), your choice of about a dozen competent EFI/Carb intake combinations a nice streetable dual pattern grind to tie it altogether and bang....500-600 reliable, daily driven horsepower. You're right...that was a hell of a lot of work?!? Ford should stop making speed parts altogether and step aside less they be trampled by the all mighty LSX

You talk a good talk, but thus far all I hear you saying is how it’s so much cheaper the LSX swap is, without providing a list of parts, prices or even some documentation to back your horsepower claims. On the other hand, there are literally dozens of guys in the Fox and SN95 section running simple, big inch Windsor combinations, that are turning out big numbers and running 10’s with very few parts. Throw a rock and you'll hit one.

Do guys often spend more than necessary to put their combinations together? Absolutely. I myself spent 3-times more than I needed to on my car because I wanted the “pretty factor” and the bragging rights of having all the high dollar parts under my hood.....but I could have made the same power for a lot less had I not been so concerned with overbuilding my car at the time.

 

[90lxcoupe]

ok where did i say LS3 crate motor? And im comparing HP for dollars, you just dont care to actually think before rambling.

Heres your list, but its not gonna matter cause your probly just gonna argue the point even further

6.0l LQ4 or LQ9 anywhere from 500-1500 dollars

GM Performance 12582713 - GM Performance 6.2L L92 Cylinder Heads - Overview - SummitRacing.com under 1k for heads that flow around 300 cfm with 2.16/1.59 intake valves

MSD 6LS ignition is 330 from summit

A distributor cant be more than 300

and whatever a carb is gonna cost, so basically you have are into a LONGBLOCK with electronics for 3500 max, (you could do it for 2000 if you got deals on everything) thats ready to make 550+ hp, now show me how you could build a ford motor with heads, dist, and ignition box for a similar price that will make hp as efficiently...

 

[Gearbanger 101]

ok where did i say LS3 crate motor? And im comparing HP for dollars, you just dont care to actually think before rambling.

Heres your list, but its not gonna matter cause your probly just gonna argue the point even further

6.0l LQ4 or LQ9 anywhere from 500-1500 dollars

GM Performance 12582713 - GM Performance 6.2L L92 Cylinder Heads - Overview - SummitRacing.com under 1k for heads that flow around 300 cfm with 2.16/1.59 intake valves

MSD 6LS ignition is 330 from summit

A distributor cant be more than 300

and whatever a carb is gonna cost, so basically you have are into a LONGBLOCK with electronics for 3500 max, (you could do it for 2000 if you got deals on everything) thats ready to make 550+ hp, now show me how you could build a ford motor with heads, dist, and ignition box for a similar price that will make hp as efficiently...

Look dude, if you're going to try to compare points, at least be accurate about it. They say ignorance is bliss.....but lay off the bliss just a little bit.

A 6.0l LQ4 or LQ9 anywhere from 500-1500 dollars!?!? Maybe well used with 100K+ on the clock, but brand new (I mean....we are still comparing new, or at the very least remanufactured parts to one and other when pitting the two against one and other, are we not?) you're looking at $3,200-$3,400 minimum for a long block assembly of the engine (unless you know of any place that sells them in short block configuration for less?), plus another $900-$1,200 for the heads and valve train components, $800-1,000 for Carb and Intake package, $300-$600 for the cam, $600-$800 for complete ignition system and wiring components, $600-$1200 for headers and mid pipe. Tack on anywhere from $500-$1,000 for misc gaskets, bolts, hoses, lines wiring, sensors, fluids, etc, etc and other supporting parts needed before its even running and you're well over your predicted price range.....and that's without considering the cost of the transmission, flex plate, flywheel, clutch assembly, mounts, radiator, or any bracketry, or accessories (alternator, power steering pump, water pump, A/C) or Mustang specific K-Member thrown into the mix.

$3,500 max....don't make me laugh.

Oh and BTW...you're dreaming in Technicolor if you think a L92 head swapped LQ4/LQ9 short block with carb and intake is going to come anywhere close to 550hp. I'm not sure what "magazine" stats you were reading, but unless you're willing to dig further into the engine and don’t mind gravitating more towards the radical side and making compromises to streetability, idle, fuel mileage and pretty much all emissions, you're coming up about 100-150hp shy of that figure.

Count on spending at least 2-3 times your predicted amount for a complete working assembly stocked with new parts, capable of cranking out those kinds of power figures....and that's before you even think about what you're going to do for a drivetrain, or start gathering components needed to upgrade the fuel system, or drop it into a Mustang.

But don't worry...i'm not going to claim any different in cost to build the Ford Engine. A complete from oil pan to carbeurator 351W based stroker long block assembly in the 400ci range is going to cost you about the same amount (in the $8,000-$10,000 range) using all new parts. That's just the nature of the game. It’s not cheap, but it’s certainly no more or less expensive to do it with the Ford than it is the Chevy.

The relief comes when you don't have to worry about what you're going to do for swap parts, or drivetrain components after the engine is complete, since essentially anything that worked for the 302, works for the 351W as well. Sure, you're going to want to upgrade to a tougher transmission than the stock T-5 or AOD that the Mustang was originally saddled with, but it’s not like you're going to back an LSX swapped car with a stock GM specific T-5 or 700R4 and expect it to live long under those power levels either. Upgrades are going to need to be had on both sides.....but the GM swap unfortunately for the sake of your argument is going to require a lot more upgraded components and supporting hardware to make work. That's just the way it is.

 

[94gtfreak]

OH noes! It's happening all over again! A whole 'nother thread about purism.

I agree with Brian 110% on all above points.

Anyone transplanting a non-ford motor in to a ford chassis will slowly rot in hell.

Just a "my .02" observation.

 

[57fairlane]

OH noes! It's happening all over again! A whole 'nother thread about purism.

How many horses are there?!?

Anyone transplanting a non-ford motor in to a ford chassis will slowly rot in hell.

I have a chevy transmission behind my BBF . . . what does that make me?

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I have a chevy transmission behind my BBF . . . what does that make me?

I'm assuming its a Powerglide...in which case it makes you a guy with only 2 forward gears and a lot of rear gear out back.

 

[90lxcoupe]

Ok gearbanger your right, you do the same thing in every other post where someone disagrees with what you say, you rant for 4 paragraphs and belittle them until you richard gets hard and it makes your balls feel big, you dont know what your talking about, i used to hate LS1 stuff just as much as everyone else, but one day i woke up and stopped enjoying the smell of my own farts and did some reading, you should try it, cause the stuff your saying is false, yes you could build a 10,000 dollar LS motor, but you know what, you dont have to. There are a ton of guys running in the 10's driving to and from the track on LS setups, on stock bottom ends, without any fancy parts, high dollar cylinder heads or even custom cams.

 

[stykthyn]

$3,500 max....don't make me laugh.

.

So go ahead and beat your chest because your heart beats ford blue. Thats cool. But don't be so ignorant as to say what can and can't be done with other make and model motors just because it isn't a ford.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I provide parts lists, swap parts, dollar figures and practicality.....you guys provide pissing and moaning, half truths and insults. We'll let the people reading this thread decide for themselves which of our statements is more credible I guess. It has nothing to do with beating my chest, or watching my dick grow. It’s about common sense and neither of you seem to display any. Anyone who's ever layed out the cabbage to built an engine knows you don't build 550hp for minimum wage.

In any case, let’s just hope nobody is foolish enough to think they can build one of these set ups from scratch with new parts for the paltry sum you're boasting and gets in over their heads.

....and stykthyn, I have yet to see you add anything at all relavent to this conversation. If you wanna prove me wrong, bring something else to the table besides the hit and run comments. You remind me of that Chihuahua dancing around the Bull Dog in the Warner Bros cartoons when you pull this stuff. Put up, or shut up!

 

[stykthyn]

I will admit I have added little evidence to this particular threaddue to not having info in front of me, but when I have ever pulled this stuff like you so say?

give me time to gather relevant parts info and pricing.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I'll wait....and remember...the comparison was based on NEW PARTS. Junk yard parts will vary in price. Anywhere from half the cost, to out right free....which would otherwise make it an irrelevant comparison when you're trying to put a price list together for both engines and consistent source pricing isn't standardized.

 

[NIKwoaC]

Why the **** have cross-breed motor swap threads not been outlawed in 5.0 Talk/Tech yet? All brand loyalties aside, EVERY damn post about a cross breed swap turns into a meaningless pissing match. I've been on other forums that nip this stuff in the bud, I have no idea why its allowed to go on around here.

Edit: This doesn't even belong in Tech anymore anyway. 2 pages and not one single person gave the OP a straight answer.

 

[25thmustang]

Much more work?!?! Let's see....stroker rotating assembly, AFR 185-205 heads (or any of about half a dozen other castings), your choice of about a dozen competent EFI/Carb intake combinations a nice streetable dual pattern grind to tie it altogether and bang....500-600 reliable, daily driven horsepower. You're right...that was a hell of a lot of work?!? Ford should stop making speed parts altogether and step aside less they be trampled by the all mighty LSX

Coming from someone who helped out with a 393 that had AFR 185s and makes in the solid mid 400s to the tire...

There are a lot of reliable 600 hp 351 strokers running around the streets?

BTW a stock LS3 is a 400 hp (not rwhp, but crank) or close, correct? Add a cam, exhaust, carb and tune and I can imagine 550 hp isn't tough to come by?

 

[90lxcoupe]

I'll wait....and remember...the comparison was based on NEW PARTS. Junk yard parts will vary in price. Anywhere from half the cost, to out right free....which would otherwise make it an irrelevant comparison when you're trying to put a price list together for both engines and consistent source pricing isn't standardized.

I never said anywhere that these were new parts, im comparing HP for dollars spent, just because you dont think it can be done, dosent mean it wont happen

This car, stock truck bottom end, untouched GTO heads, 3200lbs, and 6.67 in the eigth that equals a mid 10 second pass which is roughly 570 hp
lq4 87 coupe - Corral Forums

Or how bout this one, another stock bottom end, 88k mile with 5.3 truck heads NA in the 10's, and 144mph on juice, he didnt give an exact weight but to keep it conservative, lets say 2700 lbs, that would put him at about 637hp, from a single shot of juice and a 346" motor.
Notch goes 9's @ 144 today and sets fastest LS1 stock bottom end record! <video> - Corral Forums

Do you need more "proof" that a stock bottom end with factor heads can go that quick?

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I never said anywhere that these were new parts, im comparing HP for dollars spent, just because you dont think it can be done, dosent mean it wont happen?

Didn't say it couldn't happen....but since you insisted on comparing used GM junkyard parts to a new Ford Stroker engine, I thought it only fair that we level the playing field by comparing the cost of new parts for both.

Like I said....used parts can be had at rock bottom prices for both. So the whole "GM cost advantage" when all factors are considered is a moot point. You're going to spend about the same amount of money on both.

This car, stock truck bottom end, untouched GTO heads, 3200lbs, and 6.67 in the eigth that equals a mid 10 second pass which is roughly 570 hp
lq4 87 coupe - Corral Forums

Or how bout this one, another stock bottom end, 88k mile with 5.3 truck heads NA in the 10's, and 144mph on juice, he didnt give an exact weight but to keep it conservative, lets say 2700 lbs, that would put him at about 637hp, from a single shot of juice and a 346" motor.
Notch goes 9's @ 144 today and sets fastest LS1 stock bottom end record! <video> - Corral Forums

Do you need more "proof" that a stock bottom end with factor heads can go that quick?

I'm sorry....where did I state these cars couldn't go that quick? My argument was that you weren't seeing 550hp from a 6.0L with little more than an L98 head swap a carb/intake and ignition upgrades like you were trying to lead us to believe. Especially one that does it on all motor without "breathing hard".

I find it a little ironic that you fail to note the other modifications made to said vehicles. I mean....look at the list of supporting parts in this guys set up.

i'm going to give a run down on my LS swap into a foxbody....87 coupe 4 cyl. car with roll up windows,8.8 moser 35 spline axles(i know over kill) full spool,c-clip eliminators,4.11 gear,welded axle tubes,mac rear end cover,brake drums and rotors off a 82-93 ranger for the five lug swap the rear end housing is narrowed two inches on each side to put 15 10's on the car with 5 inch back spacing...chromoly drive shaft made for the car going from a turbo 350 to a 8.8 rear end....team z anti roll bar....aje k-member,coil overs,control arms and caster camber kit....kooks 1 7/8 into 3 1/2 collector stainless headers(which fit perfect with the aje stuff)....turbo 350 short shaft fresh rebuild and foward manual valve body(no trans brake) j&w bell housing....monocox(might be spelled wrong forgive me)15 10 and 15 3's with 26 11.50's et streets on the back....tight ati 8 inch conv.(flash's around 4k off the footbrake)2002 lq4 6.0 out of a 2500 series 4wd chevy truck with 60k on it....stock untouched botton end....stock untouched ports and valves 799 heads off a 2005 gto milled .040(59cc) .040 cometic head gaskets...valve releifs was cut for ptv clearence...polluter cam kit from tick performance(the kit includes cam,springs,retainers and keepers,ls6 oil pump and hardened push rods)i had the cam ground on a 110 for the carb set up....victor jr intake with a 1 inch spacer...stock out of the box aed 750 carb....two chamber flowmaster mufflers swelled to 3 inch in and out....msd 6010 box with the number 6 pill in it(36 degree's timing)....alright guys the reason i told you my setup is to show you how easy this stuff is,this a true combo that runs good for the money...i had this setup in a 85 regal with a 4.11 gear that weighed 3190 lbs with me in it and the car ran a 6.67 at that weight thru the mufflers never got over 180 degrees in the summer heat and would make power to 7k plus rpm and is smooth as silk...if you want more details ask,if you want exact prices on parts ask...i want to help any one thats interested in this kind of swap....

You can't on one hand go and say making these power levels and running these times can be done for peanuts, then provide examples of stripper cars, with everything imaginable done to them in order to pull it off.

Why don't you PM this guy and ask him what he's got into it. I bet it’s way, way North of "$3,500 Max".

Same goes for your second example.....another purpose built, stripped race car. And for all we know, he was running a 250hp shot of nitrous through that custom manifold at the top of the track in order to run those times. Not expensive, but not exactly “all motor” either.

Look....I'm not denying that GM swapped LSX Mustangs can be made fast. As a matter of fact, I don't see anywhere where I stated that even once?

....only that they're no more capable, or less expensive than a comparably put together Mustang with a similar 5.0L/5.8L based powerplant. And if that's your only basis for your argument, then you really have nothing to argue.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Coming from someone who helped out with a 393 that had AFR 185s and makes in the solid mid 400s to the tire...

Well...what does mid-400's to the tire equal at the crank? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you consider a 15-20% drivetrain loss, that puts your friend up over (and possibly well over) the 500hp mark, does it not? I'm also now betting that the 550hp figure quoted by 90lxcoupe above was on an engine dyno....not based on SAE or chassis dyno numbers. Which when you consider you’ve eliminated drivetrain components and all accessories from the engine puts it right in at around the same ranges as your buddies 393W.

Now...If I'm wrong and 90lxcoupe is quoting 550rwhp from such a simple combination, then I invite him to provide proof of such. I'd be very interested to see it.

There are a lot of reliable 600 hp 351 strokers running around the streets?

I actually said 500-600hp 351W based stroker, but in any case....you don't consider a 408W-427W stroker with compitent heads, cam and intake with full exhaust/supporting parts and minimal accessories, making 500-600hp a reliable engine combination? I mean....your buddies 393W seems to be making over, or well over 500hp at the crank.....how reliable is it?

BTW a stock LS3 is a 400 hp (not rwhp, but crank) or close, correct? Add a cam, exhaust, carb and tune and I can imagine 550 hp isn't tough to come by?

I have a hard time believing that a cam, exhaust an intake/carb and tune alone is going to add 150hp to an LS3. Guys with LS7's aren't even picking up those kinds of horsepower gains with just those few mods and they’ve got 7.0L to work with.