AFR 185s too big for my 289?

[jabb]

Enjoy the blown 289. That sounds like a blast!

Oh plan to. My wallet won't, but I will.

 

[ralph6648]

Valves vs Piston, AFR185, Speed Pro L2482F, Comp Cam XE276 hyd roller

Here is the deal. Bought a 5.0 HO short block from M and R Engines in Glendale, CA. I live in Elk Grove, CA. Unfortunately, the boss, Matt is too busy to call me back; well called me once but I called 3 time since and no reply. So, I need some good advise on easiest fix, and hopefully work it out with them soon. Did I do something wrong? Purchased spec; 5.0 HO block, blanced, bored .030, surfaced and squared, pistons Speed Pro L2482F, cam Comp XE276 351 Hyd Roller, 224-230 duration @ .50 lift, M and R degreed the cam at their shop. They said at time I purchased the short block 2.02 valve clearance was not an issue. I added roller rockers, AFR185 1422 heads (58 cc), 2.02 intake and 1.60 exhaust and used Felpro 1011-1 gaskets to complete the build. On start up (ran it about five minutes) I had a trace coolent leak at the lower ARP stud just below piston #1. I removed head to fix trace leak and found valves had made contact with the very top edge of the valve reliefs of each piston; both the intake and exhaust reliefs. I was supprised about the 1.60 exhaust valve clearance issue. Took off the other head, and found similar problem with piston 4 and 5, but not any noticable problem with pistone 6 and 7. Looking for all recommendations, and advice. Thanks.

 

[woodsnake]

Contact you say?
Valves touched pistons you say?

Shop did not verify P2V clearance, and probably did not verify rocker arm geometry either...
Make them fix it, they ****ed it up....

Also, if it's possible, find out if the springs are the correct installed height. What length of valves were used?

 

[ralph6648]

P2V clearance

No they didn't do a physical check. I intalled the heads. But, when I inquired if there would be enough clearance, they did some calculations on their computer (at least it looked like it), and said yes, there is enought clearance, no problem. They also offered to install ProCom heads with big valves, but I thought I'd use the AFRs or Edelbrock.

 

[woodsnake]

I'm sorry to hear that.
I had a similar, HUGE learning curve regarding push rod length and "bad gasoline".....( I don't have a lot of love for one shop in Boise.......)

If you didn't check, then you didn't verify it.
That's a builder error.

What about setting up the rest of the valve train geometry? Rocker arms, etc..?
Contact area on the valve stem?

 

[ralph6648]

I can agree there is some builder fault, and first and foremost is not checking the shops claims. I did use 1.6 roller rockers and I have checked the wear pattern on the top of the valve stems; wear is in the center as it is suppose to be. I am wondering if during the adjustment of the valves I could have made a mistake; took them down to zero lash and then 1/4 to 1/2 turn. I was really hoping that someone would have had experience with the pistons that were installed, and if they know what is the maximum size valves that could be used with them. I have read on one hot rod web site that with the 93 HO you can not use bigger valves; enven the 1.60 exhaust, which is standard on almost all hipo type after market heads is too big for the piston reliefs; but like I said I was hoping that someone may have direct knowlege of this.

 

[woodsnake]

Plus or minus a fraction of a turn on the lock nut will not have (or should not have) enough enough linear movement alone to make or break physical P2V clearance.

Did you bend the valves? "Dent" the top of the piston? Can you post a picture?

 

[ralph6648]

Fortunately, did not bend the valves. Really, there is very little damage, just some scratches at the edge of the valves. There was not hint of a problem while it was running, just when I took the heads off to fix the leak coming from areound one of the ARP head studs. I'll try to load (attach) a couple of pictures as it is hard to describe. Hopefully, these help explain the extend of damage.

 

[woodsnake]

If that's all the damage you did, you might have gotten incredibly lucky. I know there is a way to notch pistons in the bores, but you may end up having to pull it down again to get them clearanced that little bit.....

Still, you will need to verify what the physical P2V clearance is...A shorter valve may help solve your issue, however, you will need to again verify installed height of the springs, rocker arm sweep etc.....

Again, I learned all this the hard way my self......

 

[ralph6648]

Thanks for your reply Woodsnake. I don't understand what you mean by a shorter valve may help solve the problem. My understanding is the valve lift is created by the cam lobe, and rocker ratio. As I understand it, a shorter valve would only make a difference in causing the roller tip to hit the top of the valve stem at a different place; rather than the center of the tip. I have considered rockers with a 1.5 ratio rather than a 1.6 standard ratio; but that would mean less power. I was able to speak to one of the engine builders, and he was of the opinion if I have them cut new valve reliefs it would through the engine off balance. But, I am not that knowledgeable to know just how much difference triming them up a bit would make. Help in this area wold be great, as that is what I thought would be the easiest way to fix this.

 

[woodsnake]

I don't know that the amount of material removed to clear the valves would be enough to affect the engine balance for street driving...

It's a common trick to use a yvech valve when setting up the geometry. I'm thinking if you took .100 out of the 'middle' of the valve, that might gain your clearance. It's also after midnight out here, so my thinking might be off a bit too...

 

[D.Hearne]

Here is the deal. Bought a 5.0 HO short block from M and R Engines in Glendale, CA. I live in Elk Grove, CA. Unfortunately, the boss, Matt is too busy to call me back; well called me once but I called 3 time since and no reply. So, I need some good advise on easiest fix, and hopefully work it out with them soon. Did I do something wrong? Purchased spec; 5.0 HO block, blanced, bored .030, surfaced and squared, pistons Speed Pro L2482F, cam Comp XE276 351 Hyd Roller, 224-230 duration @ .50 lift, M and R degreed the cam at their shop. They said at time I purchased the short block 2.02 valve clearance was not an issue. I added roller rockers, AFR185 1422 heads (58 cc), 2.02 intake and 1.60 exhaust and used Felpro 1011-1 gaskets to complete the build. On start up (ran it about five minutes) I had a trace coolent leak at the lower ARP stud just below piston #1. I removed head to fix trace leak and found valves had made contact with the very top edge of the valve reliefs of each piston; both the intake and exhaust reliefs. I was supprised about the 1.60 exhaust valve clearance issue. Took off the other head, and found similar problem with piston 4 and 5, but not any noticable problem with pistone 6 and 7. Looking for all recommendations, and advice. Thanks.

First off, you've commited a thread jacking here. Second, the builder of the short block bears no responsibility here. You asked for an opinion and you got one. It was up to you to verifiy the actual clearance. Third, what ratio rockers did you use ? 1.6 or 1.7's ? O.E. replacement pistons don't work with 2.02 valves, a little research would have turned that well known fact up. You now have several choices to make, either swap to a smaller valved head, smaller cam, lower ratio rockers or flycut the pistons. Flycutting is the cheapest solution, only I'd pull them before doing it. Some do it in an assembled engine, but the hard part there is getting all the shavings out of the bores, especially the stuff that ends up between the piston and bore down to the first ring land. Fourth, how much did they deck the block ? With the compression height of those pistons, and an undecked block (8.206) you end up with a deck clearance of .006" Milling .010 yeilds a piston sticking out of the bore by .004. Further reducing piston to valve clearance. This is something you want for maximum compression, but making the piston to valve clearance very critical.

 

[ralph6648]

Sorry about the "Thread Jacking"; being a rookie at using a forum, and at putting together and engine isn't easy to live with. I used 1.6 roller rockers. I looked on the web for 1.5 ratio rockers, but didn't find them for a ford 5.0/AFR185 heads. I called a local maching shop about cutting larger valve reliefs. I got an estimate of $12 per relief (x 16) and another $50 to take the rod off the piston (each). That seems to be within reason. Thanks for your replies.

 

[bikefreak600]

First off, you've commited a thread jacking here. Second, the builder of the short block bears no responsibility here. You asked for an opinion and you got one. It was up to you to verifiy the actual clearance. Third, what ratio rockers did you use ? 1.6 or 1.7's ? O.E. replacement pistons don't work with 2.02 valves, a little research would have turned that well known fact up. You now have several choices to make, either swap to a smaller valved head, smaller cam, lower ratio rockers or flycut the pistons. Flycutting is the cheapest solution, only I'd pull them before doing it. Some do it in an assembled engine, but the hard part there is getting all the shavings out of the bores, especially the stuff that ends up between the piston and bore down to the first ring land. Fourth, how much did they deck the block ? With the compression height of those pistons, and an undecked block (8.206) you end up with a deck clearance of .006" Milling .010 yeilds a piston sticking out of the bore by .004. Further reducing piston to valve clearance. This is something you want for maximum compression, but making the piston to valve clearance very critical.

+1 cutting bigger reliefs is the only sensible route. im sure the deck was milled also. i dont know if that speed pro part # is forged, but if they are hyper pistons i would also consider swapping to forged pistons that already have the big reliefs in them. that will help in the long run and you can order them for whatever comp ratio you desire.

 

[D.Hearne]

Some of the aftermarket Ford heads can and do use chebby rockers. But cutting larger reliefs would be the preferable thing to do. Reducing the rocker ratio would only net you .034" clearance, not hardly enough to justify the cost anyway.

 

[ralph6648]

Happy ending for AFR185s and valve reliefs

Thanks to the infomation I obtained from Stangnet and its member's, I was able to discuss the valve relief issue with M and R Engines in Glendale, and they have agreed to fix the problem with the valve reliefs. And, thank you M and R Engines in Glendale. They agreed to cut bigger valve reliefs in the pistons or replace the pistons with new ones that have bigger valve reliefs; final decision when they get the pistons back. But just wanted to let those who contributed to this "hi-jacked" thread (really sorry about that, next time I'll start a new one) and those that started this thread, Thanks. Next update when I get the engine back together (under a new thread title though).

 

[bikefreak600]

Thanks to the infomation I obtained from Stangnet and its member's, I was able to discuss the valve relief issue with M and R Engines in Glendale, and they have agreed to fix the problem with the valve reliefs. And, thank you M and R Engines in Glendale. They agreed to cut bigger valve reliefs in the pistons or replace the pistons with new ones that have bigger valve reliefs; final decision when they get the pistons back. But just wanted to let those who contributed to this "hi-jacked" thread (really sorry about that, next time I'll start a new one) and those that started this thread, Thanks. Next update when I get the engine back together (under a new thread title though).

heck yea thats good to hear