Blown 302 H/C/I questions tune/program, etc..

[Gen414]

Hey guys, some of you may know this car from the C4 to AOD over to TKO thread Ive got going. If not, no biggie. Here is what Im looking for:

It's a '93 Fox body, 302, GT40 IRON heads, Cobra Intake, and cam with Vortech V-1 SC. Still in process of upgrading fuel system, went twin in tank pumps, #8 feed, #6 return, boost refernce FP reg, 42LB, fuel rails, and a Pro-M calibrated for the 42's.

Since I stopped running Fun Ford, oh, back in '98 or so, I got into the LSx stuff (I know, I know..booooo on me , and hence my Gen414 moniker, meaning Gen, short for GenIII chevy motor, 414 as in 414" is the motor in my shop car ) havent messed with much Ford stuff. ANYWAYS, if memory serves me correctly, #8 plug (Im partial to NGK stuff myself) is heat range Im looking for, and it's, what..BKR8E? In other words, what NGK plug is it Imlooking for again..need confirmation if memory has gone to crap, or i was able to pull one out of my you know what.

OK, also...gonna run stock ECM, so what programmer is popular these days for teh Fox? A more budget oriented programmer would be nice, but if you have a suggestion, would like to hear, regardless of cost, as long as it works with the stock ECM.

So, what NGK plug am I looking for, and what programmer? Thanks guys...

 

[Kdubslugga]

I use Anderson Fords PMS, love it. Its expensive but I wont use anything else. A lot of guys swear by Moates and Quarterhorse, I ve never seen one actually but Ive heard good things. As far as plugs, no idea but any parts store should be able to cross reference for you. You probably want 1 heat range colder than stock

 

[Gen414]

That is where I got the fuel system and Pro-M from, Anderson Ford. I looked at thier PMS, and Ive heard of it from back when I ran Fun Ford and Anderson was (still may as far as I know) sponsoring the Renegade car, yellow and blue, driven by Brian (this was, oh, @ '97, '98 or '99..right in there) Just really looking for a slightly cheaper alternative (they want, what, close to a $1000 for it?)
I use HPTuners on the LSx stuff I mess with, and is half of that ($), and I just dont see why if HPTuners can offer such a great and user friendly programmer, why the PMS is so dang expensive. I understand when you get it to the standalone's, but to reprogram a stock 'puter...well, to me should be looking at it from a more budget standpoint.
Not knocking the PMS, as obviously it's a great product, as it's been around forever, and if they are asking that much for it, and people pay it, well, tells you all you need to know.

But, for this car, just looking for more of a budget oriented programmer. Thanks for your info though.

About the Moates you mentioned..yes, a few people have actually sent me PM's regarding it, as well as some links Imgonna check out. I'll let you guys know.


Anyone else have any input they want to share?

 

[2000xp8]

I'll be in the minority here, but i get to see many worked mustangs on a pretty normal basis, i say forgo the entire programmer or tuner setup, you can get these cars to run near perfect without them, i also happen to believe many people without dyno access make their cars run worse not better with them.
I've seen cars make 650rwhp with no tuners that run right.

For the fuel setup, you are spending alot of unecessary money, the stock fuel systems with a hp gss340 and 42's will support 500rwhp, which is the absolute highest point i'd consider taking a stock block.
A number you really aren't going to be very close to with gt40 iron heads.
You are going to make a very simple fuel system complicated, along with spending about $1500 for no reason.
Spend that money on better heads.

 

[Gen414]

I'll be in the minority here, but i get to see many worked mustangs on a pretty normal basis, i say forgo the entire programmer or tuner setup, you can get these cars to run near perfect without them, i also happen to believe many people without dyno access make their cars run worse not better with them.
I've seen cars make 650rwhp with no tuners that run right.

For the fuel setup, you are spending alot of unecessary money, the stock fuel systems with a hp gss340 and 42's will support 500rwhp, which is the absolute highest point i'd consider taking a stock block.
A number you really aren't going to be very close to with gt40 iron heads.
You are going to make a very simple fuel system complicated, along with spending about $1500 for no reason.
Spend that money on better heads.

I know the car will run just fine without a tune on it, but thats not what Im looking for, "fine". Im wanting to squeak the performance out of it. Plus, me owing my own shop, and I havent really messed with any Ford stuff in last 10-12+ years, this Fox has brought back some great memories. So, it's a little bit of "just because" and in my opinion, it "pretty much will benefit from it" as well. So, there is no "lose" in it, and since we really dont HAVE to have one, is why Im trying to stay conservative on the programmer right now ($$$)

Fuel system, of course I am overboard on fuel system for current setup. I know it. Owner knows it. Everyone else with any sort of knowledge knows it. What I dont like to do, is do things TWICE when you KNOW or even THINK you are gonna make changes in future (ie, more power).
In the works, or on the drawing board, after this setup gets dialed in, smaller blower pulley/larger crank pulley are already a foregone conclusion. Once we max this head unit out, we have talked about simplying selling off this unit, and upgrading to a bigger blower. The talk about turbo's and Big Blocks have been thrown around as well, but realistically if that happens, it's WAY down the road.
Basically, we are thinking would like to end up in the 700-800HP range, and outside of injectors, rest of fuel system will be up to snuff.
What Im saying is, you can NEVER go overboard on a fuel system, because you ALWAYS end up wanting more power. Well, anyone, including myself, that has come through my shop always does.

 

[Gen414]

will support 500rwhp, which is the absolute highest point i'd consider taking a stock block.
A number you really aren't going to be very close to with gt40 iron heads.

.

Oh, almost forgot..thinking you underestimate the power of boost. Dont have to do much digging, just pick up latest issue of Car Craft. Stock 5.0, as in STOCK HEADS, STOCK CAM, STOCK INTAKE, on a worn out, high mileage STOCK bottom end 302, slapped a 62MM on her, and a set of 42lb injectors, 255LPH, called it a day...results? How about 441RWHP at super low 5000RPM, and a whopping 551Ft Lbs of TQ at only 10-12PSI.
Safe to assume we will touch off 500+ with oursetup soon enough...

 

[Gen414]

Still looking for the plug, NGK heat range 8....anyone?

 

[Gen414]

Wow, that was like pulling teeth, but I found it, thanks to a thread from a forum I found from 4 years ago, WHEW!

For GT40 heads, iron or aluminum, the "race" plug part number, which is a 14MM, .625 hex, .708 reach, tapered seat plug is:
R5724-8, stock # 7317, 1 heat range colder than stock
R5724-9, stock # 7891, 2 " "
R5724-10, stock # 7993, 3 steps


For you Iron Darts guys, naturally aspirated, its a 14MM, .625 hex, .46 reach, tapered and its NGK 5673-7, stock #2405 (stock heat range)

For you Iron Darts guys, forced induction, its a non-projected 14MM, .625, .75, NGK R5673-8, stock # 3249 (1 range colder), and R5673-9, stock number 3442 (2 steps colder)


Well, hope that helps guys...took me long enough to find that info.

 

[1bbcd5]

Valuable thoughts and advices. I read your topic with great interest.

 

[JungleJoe]

I use those plugs gapped at 28. heads ,cam, intake,s trim blower

 

[Gen414]

Hey guys, me again, wanted to update this. Before I went out and bought the plugs I mentioned above, I thought about talking with NGK directly, and see what they said.
#1, since that thread I found, was like 4 years old, wasnt even sure if that part # still existed (was pretty sure it did, but, you never know)
and
#2, back when I ran the plugs, i was alot more inexperienced, and if I remember correctly, was just given those plugs by local counter guy at my local Speed Shop.

So, even though the plugs worked, and never had a problem with them, thought, well, MAYBE there is a better alternative.

So, why not talk with NGK tech personnel, and get it from the Horse's mouth!
So, talked with the guys over there, and they ended up giving me the following plug numbers:

TR71X stock # 3690
TR81X stock # 3691

Im headed to local parts house today, to order (doubting they have em in stock) all of the plugs above (R5724-8, TR71X, and TR81X) and gonna do a little trial and error on it. The NGK tech thought the R5724-8 would be too cold of a plug, and I disputed that, but he stuck with it. Insisted that it would be too cold. So, I figure too cold is better than too hot, so gonna try the R5724-8 first, see how they run, and then swap over to his suggestion.

So, there is my update, will give you another one soon enough. Im in middle of fabricating a battery box, as I am relocating the Optima battery to the trunk. I installed teh Meth bottle in battery location, and then fabricated a bracket, and hung the meth pump motor in the inner fender well/off teh core support (will get s pics for you guys later on).
Basically, mounted pump of course, far enough away from the front wheel, where it is impossible to come into contact (on other side of plastic inner wheel liner), but I also fabbed up a "shield" to protect teh pump from road debris/water splash, etc..

I wanted the reservoir in place that was easy to access, but didnt want to use washer bottle as reservoir as alot of guys do (and Ive done before as well). This is a TRUE street car. Still has AC (blows ice chunks), pwr windows/locks/steering/brakes/cruise...in fact, this car has pretty much been restored, from tip to stern. new headlights lens, weatherstripping, carpet, headliner..even has new ASHTRAY, and cover (cover already broke though, HAHAHA!)
ANYWAYS, that is a big reason car is taking awhle to finish up as well, making sure everythig is done perfect, and car is not hacked up and thrown together.

 

[Gen414]

Here are couple pics of teh car, actually dont have many right now of teh car itself. We are not real big on teh color, but it's a fresh repaint, and was done right (all trim and everything pulled, so no overspray, no orange peel..they did a bang up job). Its pretty dirty in this pic as well:

This pic is underhood shot before I began upgrade on fuel system/meth kit/etc...(close inspection, and careful eyes will see the floor of 25.2 rollcage starting to take shape in background and is going in a '99 Camaro)...

I'll get some shots of Meth install later on...

 

[Gen414]

I use those plugs gapped at 28. heads ,cam, intake,s trim blower

You used the R5724-8? Thanks..

 

[Shaolin Crane]

Oh, almost forgot..thinking you underestimate the power of boost. Dont have to do much digging, just pick up latest issue of Car Craft. Stock 5.0, as in STOCK HEADS, STOCK CAM, STOCK INTAKE, on a worn out, high mileage STOCK bottom end 302, slapped a 62MM on her, and a set of 42lb injectors, 255LPH, called it a day...results? How about 441RWHP at super low 5000RPM, and a whopping 551Ft Lbs of TQ at only 10-12PSI.
Safe to assume we will touch off 500+ with oursetup soon enough...

You do know there is a HUGE difference between that setup and a vortech set up right?

 

[Gen414]

You do know there is a HUGE difference between that setup and a vortech set up right?

What, between teh blower and a turbo? Hardly what I would call a HUGE difference. Look, not gonna get into a debate about how a turbo makes more power than a blower. I think we all know, given apples to apples (if you can consider a turbo and blower apple and apple), that teh turbo is gonna make more power than a blower.
But, for all intents and purposes, positive manifold pressure (aka boost) is positive manifold pressure. No, we dont have to get into airflow, and restrictions in teh motor (ie cylinder heads, intake, etc..) and/or intercooler, as again, Im very aware of that.

Im also not trying to compare the turbo in the Car Craft article, to the blower that is in teh Fox Im working on. All Im saying is, that person above said its not possible to make 500 with GT40 heads, and I used the Car Craft article as an example that it is. HP/TQ is about airflow, getting it in, getting it out, and the Gt40's are good enough to make that much. I used that article to show, that if stock heads/intake/cam can flow enough air to make that power, than an improved cylinder head, intake, cam (as in this case) surely will. The Gt40's flow enough to support the number, and the head unit Im working with does as well. And even it doesnt (i know 500RWHP is nearing the limit of the V-1 SC is capable of, but there is also a thing such as a head unit exchange, which is next on the list after our pulley swap, if not able to touch off the number. But, THAT is not the point anyways...point is, GT40 heads and whether or not they can support 500, and I know they can...and Ill have numbers for you here in teh future.



EDIT: See you are at least wise enough to know the LS rocks the house (meant as a compliment BTW, as the LS is why I left teh SBF/Fox camp many years ago...)

 

[Gen414]

Not to get off topic at hand, was just wondering if any of you guys have seen Hot Rod article, fromabout 2 months back, on the 4.8L truck motor Hot Rod took, slapped twin 76's on it? Stock bottom end..block, crank, rods, main bolts, did open up ring gap, but used stock pistons and stock cylinder heads. Did put a FAST intake and throttle body on it and a set of injectors...but it made 1200+HP @ 26PSI.
They were trying to see how much power it could make before the stock motor grenaded..end up making like 50 or so dyno runs, upping the boost each time, and motor never failed. If memory serves correctly, jsut added a set of ARP head studs, set of valvepsrings, and MAYBE ported the stock heads...cant remember. I jsut know that it made over 1200HP @ 26PSI on a stock bottom end, THAT is what I remember.

 

[VibrantRedGT]

I know you mentioned NGK (No Good Kind) but the Autolite number system is so much easier. Autolite for stock heads 3925, one range colder 3924's, another range colder 3923's, etc. Most people with aluminum heads and power adder run 3923's gapped at 28-30. With your iron heads probably 3924's at that gap.

 

[90lxcoupe]

That 4.8l hot rod article was awesome. They did re file the rings to open the gap up a little for the boost tho, then re assembled it. Awesome article. I havent been that excited reading a magazine in a long time.

No one has said it yet, but Megasquirt is a great option, and it is only 600 bucks from DIYautotune.com

 

[Shaolin Crane]

What, between teh blower and a turbo? Hardly what I would call a HUGE difference. Look, not gonna get into a debate about how a turbo makes more power than a blower. I think we all know, given apples to apples (if you can consider a turbo and blower apple and apple), that teh turbo is gonna make more power than a blower.
But, for all intents and purposes, positive manifold pressure (aka boost) is positive manifold pressure. No, we dont have to get into airflow, and restrictions in teh motor (ie cylinder heads, intake, etc..) and/or intercooler, as again, Im very aware of that.

Im also not trying to compare the turbo in the Car Craft article, to the blower that is in teh Fox Im working on. All Im saying is, that person above said its not possible to make 500 with GT40 heads, and I used the Car Craft article as an example that it is. HP/TQ is about airflow, getting it in, getting it out, and the Gt40's are good enough to make that much. I used that article to show, that if stock heads/intake/cam can flow enough air to make that power, than an improved cylinder head, intake, cam (as in this case) surely will. The Gt40's flow enough to support the number, and the head unit Im working with does as well. And even it doesnt (i know 500RWHP is nearing the limit of the V-1 SC is capable of, but there is also a thing such as a head unit exchange, which is next on the list after our pulley swap, if not able to touch off the number. But, THAT is not the point anyways...point is, GT40 heads and whether or not they can support 500, and I know they can...and Ill have numbers for you here in teh future.



EDIT: See you are at least wise enough to know the LS rocks the house (meant as a compliment BTW, as the LS is why I left teh SBF/Fox camp many years ago...)

Haha, if only my cars were as impressive as my sig. I'll be LS someday.

I'm just saying turbos are a whole different animal then a vortech. The blower steals something like 60hp just to drive it. Plus the v1 is only rated at a 48,000 impeller speed so you'll reach the limit of the setup quickly. Plus no charge cooler. I'm not saying its impossible, but have fun and dont be dissapointed when you realize you should have went LS again.

FWIW my build on the 88 is nearly identical, worked SVO heads, custom grind, ported intake, 9.5:1 compression v2 blower and ed curtis said 460hpish because of the poor heads. But i'm happy with that number, 500rwh is the goal but i wont off some baby seals if it doesnt happen

 

[fiveohwblow]

Haha, if only my cars were as impressive as my sig. I'll be LS someday.

I'm just saying turbos are a whole different animal then a vortech. The blower steals something like 60hp just to drive it. Plus the v1 is only rated at a 48,000 impeller speed so you'll reach the limit of the setup quickly. Plus no charge cooler. I'm not saying its impossible, but have fun and dont be dissapointed when you realize you should have went LS again.

FWIW my build on the 88 is nearly identical, worked SVO heads, custom grind, ported intake, 9.5:1 compression v2 blower and ed curtis said 460hpish because of the poor heads. But i'm happy with that number, 500rwh is the goal but i wont off some baby seals if it doesnt happen

V1 here, 13 lbs which is far above 48,000 rpms at my 6200 rpm redline lol. 450-460 rwhp on a dyno jet and we tuned quite a bit of power out of her. Never had issues. But I want a turbo. Le sad.

Shaolin, suck on a dick flavored Ls Popsicle. Go to www.lsisgod.com with that talk.