Cel Won't Go Away No Matter What I Do. Please Help!!!

drw4338

Member
Jun 19, 2016
13
1
13
Minnesota
Ok guys and gals,

I have a problem that is driving me nuts, and I cannot figure out what is causing this. I have a 1993 LX 5.0 with a March Ram Air Kit, 1999 Explorer intake (EGR was deleted as a result using a delete plate and plug for the electrical connection), and BBK long tubes installed with an “off-road” x pipe ( cats and smog system deleted) and Magnaflow cat back. I also have a 4 bank eliminator chip tuned for 91 octane. Other than that she is pretty stock.

About two months ago, out of nowhere I started getting a random intermittent CEL anywhere from 5 to 15 min into a drive. It will go away and stay away with WOT. It will go away when car is shut off and then restarted. There are no KOER codes other than the pass code. There are no KOEO active codes. However, I am getting codes 91(lean left bank) and 41(lean right bank) in continuous memory. I also occasionally get a 96 (Secondary fuel pump circuit), but not every time. Performance is not affected when CEL is on.

Here is what I have tried to solve this with no luck:

· I have driven in all 4 chip tunes – Stock = no CEL, Street = CEL, Performance = CEL, Race = CEL (occasionally though I will receive no CEL with the tunes as well, but have never had one in stock)

· Pulled spark plugs – no sign of lean condition

· Performed Cylinder balance test in all 4 tunes – all passed

· Measured fuel pressure – 36 on and 44 off

· New fuel filter (although it was done before winter storage back in October)

· Smoked the system looking for vacuum leaks – no vacuum leaks

· Checked for exhaust leaks – no exhaust leaks

· Checked EGR delete plug for good electrical connection

· Replaced fuel pump relay for good measure and checked all wires

· Replaced O2 sensors. Have also swapped O2 sensors from side to side.

· Checked HEGO ground

· Cleaned MAF – Still got a CEL

· Replaced MAF –Still got a CEL

· Replaced PVC valve

I am at a loss here, and running out of ideas. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 
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Your fuel pump might be the next logical choice.

What fuel pump are you running? How old is it? Were you able to validate fuel pressure during the times that you get the light?

Next guess might be fuel injectors. How old are they? What size? If original, have they ever been flow tested and checked for leaks?
 
Clear the codes, then drive 20-30 minutes and dump them again.
Fix the 41/91 codes if the come back.


You must clear the codes anytime you replace any sensor.

How to clear codes.
Clear the computer codes by disconnecting the battery negative terminal and turn the headlights on. That clears the computer's memory of codes and the adaptive learning data it generates from sensors. Turn the headlights off and reconnect the all sensors including the MAF and anything else you may have disconnected. Then reconnect the battery negative cable.. This clears all spurious codes that may have been generated while troubleshooting problems. This does not fix the code problems, it just gives you a clean slate to start recording what the computer sees happening.

Run the car for at least 30 minutes of driving and dump the codes again to assure that you have fixed the code problem or sensor problem



Code 41 or 91. Or 43 Three digit code 172 or 176 - O2 sensor indicates system lean. Look for a vacuum leak or failing O2 sensor.

Revised 11-Jan-2015 to add check for fuel pressure out of range

Code 41 is the passenger side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.
Code 91 is the driver side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.

Code 172 is the passenger side sensor as viewed from the driver's seat.
Code 176 is the driver side sensor, as viewed from the driver's seat.

Code 43 is not side specific according to the Probst Ford Fuel injection book.

The computer sees a lean mixture signal coming from the O2 sensors and tries to compensate by adding more fuel. Many times the end result is an engine that runs pig rich and stinks of unburned fuel.

The following is a Quote from Charles O. Probst, Ford fuel Injection & Electronic Engine control:
"When the mixture is lean, the exhaust gas has oxygen, about the same amount as the ambient air. So the sensor will generate less than 400 Millivolts. Remember lean = less voltage.

When the mixture is rich, there's less oxygen in the exhaust than in the ambient air , so voltage is generated between the two sides of the tip. The voltage is greater than 600 millivolts. Remember rich = more voltage.

Here's a tip: the newer the sensor, the more the voltage changes, swinging from as low as 0.1 volt to as much as 0.9 volt. As an oxygen sensor ages, the voltage changes get smaller and slower - the voltage change lags behind the change in exhaust gas oxygen.

Because the oxygen sensor generates its own voltage, never apply voltage and never measure resistance of the sensor circuit. To measure voltage signals, use an analog voltmeter with a high input impedance, at least 10 megohms. Remember, a digital voltmeter will average a changing voltage." End Quote

Testing the O2 sensors 87-93 5.0 Mustangs
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear.

Disconnect the O2 sensor from the harness and use the body side O2 sensor harness as the starting point for testing. Do not measure the resistance of the O2 sensor , you may damage it. Resistance measurements for the O2 sensor harness are made with one meter lead on the O2 sensor harness and the other meter lead on the computer wire or pin for the O2 sensor.

Backside view of the computer wiring connector:
a9x-series-computer-connector-wire-side-view-gif.71316.gif


87-90 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Dark blue/Lt green – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Dark Green/Pink – RH O2 sensor
The computer pins are 29 (L\RH O2 with a dark green/pink wire) and 43 (LH O2 with a dark blue/pink wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.

91-93 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a Gray/Lt blue wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a Red/Black wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


Testing the O2 sensors 94-95 5.0 Mustangs
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a red/black wire) and 27 (RH O2 with a gray/lt blue wire). Use pin 32 (gray/red wire) to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter. Do not attempt to measure the resistance of the O2 sensors, it may damage them.

Testing the O2 sensor wiring harness
Most of the common multimeters have a resistance scale. Be sure the O2 sensors are disconnected and measure the resistance from the O2 sensor body harness to the pins on the computer. Using the Low Ohms range (usually 200 Ohms) you should see less than 1.5 Ohms.

87-90 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Dark blue/Lt green – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Dark Green/Pink – RH O2 sensor
Disconnect the connector from the O2 sensor and measure the resistance:
From the Dark blue/Lt green wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Dark blue/Lt green wire on the computer pin 43
From the Dark Green/Pink wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Dark Green/Pink wire on the computer pin 29

91-93 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 43 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 29 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
Disconnect the connector from the O2 sensor and measure the resistance:
From the Red/Black wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Red/Black wire on the computer pin 43
From the Dark Green/Pink Gray/Lt blue wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Gray/Lt blue wire on the computer pin 29

94-95 5.0 Mustangs:
Computer pin 29 Red/Black – LH O2 sensor
Computer pin 27 Gray/Lt blue – RH O2 sensor
From the Red/Black wire in the LH O2 sensor harness and the Red/Black wire on the computer pin 29
From the Dark Green/Pink Gray/Lt blue wire on the RH Os sensor harness and the Gray/Lt blue wire on the computer pin 27

There is a connector between the body harness and the O2 sensor harness. Make sure the connectors are mated together, the contacts and wiring are not damaged and the contacts are clean and not coated with oil.

The O2 sensor ground (orange wire with a ring terminal on it) is in the wiring harness for the fuel injection wiring. I grounded mine to one of the intake manifold bolts

Check the fuel pressure – the fuel pressure is 37-41 PSI with the vacuum disconnected and the engine idling. Fuel pressure out of range can cause the 41 & 91 codes together. It will not cause a single code, only both codes together.

Make sure you have the proper 3 wire O2 sensors. Only the 4 cylinder cars used a 4 wire sensor, which is not compatible with the V8 wiring harness.

Replace the O2 sensors in pairs if replacement is indicated. If one is weak or bad, the other one probably isn't far behind.

Code 41 can also be due to carbon plugging the driver’s side Thermactor air crossover tube on the back of the engine. The tube fills up with carbon and does not pass air to the driver’s side head ports. This puts an excess amount of air in the passenger side exhaust and can set the code 41. Remove the tube and clean it out so that both sides get good airflow: this may be more difficult than it sounds. You need something like a mini rotor-rooter to do the job because of the curves in the tube. Something like the outer spiral jacket of a flexible push-pull cable may be the thing that does the trick.

If you get only code 41 and have changed the sensor, look for vacuum leaks. This is especially true if you are having idle problems. The small plastic tubing is very brittle after many years of the heating it receives. Replace the tubing and check the PVC and the hoses connected to it.



Code 96 causes & tests 91-93 models. – KOEO- Fuel pump monitor circuit shows no power - Fuel pump relay or battery power feed was open - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits. The fuel pump circuit lost power at one time or another.

Revised 07-apr-2013 to add check for corrosion and damage in fuel pump relay socket

Clear the codes by disconnecting the battery and turning on the headlights for about 5 minutes before reconnecting the battery. This will clear any remaining codes. Drive the car for several days and dump the codes again. In many cases, this clears the 96 code.

Look for a failing fuel pump relay, bad connections or broken wiring. The fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air Meter on Fox bodied stangs built after 91. On earlier model cars is under the passenger seat. On Mass Air Conversions, the signal lead that tells the computer that the fuel pump has power may not have been wired correctly. See Mustang Mass Air Conversion | StangNet

Diagram of the fuel pump wiring for 91-93 cars.
attachment.php?attachmentid=57323&stc=1&d=1235957538.gif


Look for power at the fuel pump - the fuel pump has a connector at the rear of the car with a pink/black wire and a black wire that goes to the fuel pump. The pink/black wire should be hot when the test connector is jumpered to the test position. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. No voltage when jumpered, check the fuel pump relay and fuse links.

attachment.php?attachmentid=68357&stc=1&d=1322348015.gif



Power feed: Look for 12 volts at the pink/black wire (power source for fuel pump relay). No voltage or low voltage, bad fuse link, bad wiring, or connections. Remember that on 92 or later models the fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air meter. Watch out for the WOT A/C control relay on these cars, as it is located in the same place and can easily be mistaken for the fuel pump relay.

Relay: Turn on the key and jumper the ECC test connector as previously described. Look for 12 volts at the dark green\yellow wire (relay controlled power for the fuel pump). No voltage there means that the relay has failed, or there is a broken wire in the relay control circuit. Be sure to closely check the condition of the relay, wiring & socket for corrosion and damage.

attachment.php?attachmentid=49675&d=1175374071.gif


91-93 Models:
Using the diagram, check the dark green/yellow wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not the relay has failed or is intermittent. Check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Pink/black wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the dark green/yellow wire, swap the relay.

All testing is done with the ignition switch in the Run position. Do not forget this crucial step.

The pink/black wire s should have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt. If not, then the fuse link for the fuel pump has opened up.

With the test jumper in place the green/yellow wire should be the same voltage as the pink/black wire +/- 0.25 volt.

If not, look at the red wire: should have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt.
If not, then check the yellow wire on the EEC relay located on top of the computer. This one is hard to get to. It should have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt. If not, then the fuse link for the computer has opened up.

If the red wire does not have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt and the yellow wire on the EEC relay does, then check the red/green wire on the EEC relay. It should have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt. If not, then the ignition switch is defective or the fuse link in the ignition wiring harness has opened up, or the EEC relay is defective.

All testing is done with the ignition switch in the Run position. Do not forget this crucial step.

The pink/black wire s should have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt. If not, then the fuse link for the fuel pump has opened up.

With the test jumper in place the green/yellow wire should be the same voltage as the pink/black wire +/- 0.25 volt.

If not, look at the red wire: should have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt.
If not, then check the yellow wire on the EEC relay located on top of the computer. This one is hard to get to. It should have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt. If not, then the fuse link for the computer has opened up.

If the red wire does not have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt and the yellow wire on the EEC relay does, then check the red/green wire on the EEC relay. It should have the same voltage as the battery positive terminal +/- 0.25 volt. If not, then the ignition switch is defective or the fuse link in the ignition wiring harness has opened up, or the EEC relay is defective.

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds
IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
 
Ok, wow that is a ton of information. I am not trying to be an ***hole here by any means, and I appreciate the info, but I am certainly not a pro and all of that is overwhelming. Keep in mind as I stated, my FPR and O2 sensors are all brand new, plus this problem is intermittent making it that much more difficult to track cause it is hard to catch it and test while the light is on. I always clear before pulling codes and am familiar with that procedure. Keep in mind these codes are never active. Always in memory when pulled. While I appreciate reading the manual, it does not really give me a direction. It just says to check everything. What are you suggesting I look at in all of this? Do you think my new O2s are not good? Why would an electrical connection problem with them throw a lean code? It would seem if they are throwing a code that they are doing their job. Why would my new FPR not be good? It stars the car, and again, when the light is on there is no change in power. The pump is still working. I just need more specific ideas here.
 
Noobz347,

The car was completely stock when I got her, and based on the lack of mechanical maintenance, I would say the fuel pump is the original one. Can a fuel pump be intermittent, and if it can, why do I not experience a power loss? Also, keep in mind the spark plugs are showing absolutely no signs of a lean condition. I was not able to check pressure with the light on yet. I will try though.

As with the pump, the injectors are original. I'm guessing the only time they have been out is when I swapped intakes. I have never had them tested. What are your thoughts there? Ya think one is going out? Why lean on both sides then?
 
The instructions did not come from some manual - I wrote them. I am a computer/electronics tech and I have been driving and fixing these 5.0 fox body Mustangs for over 25 years.

You seriously need to go back and re-read the instructions. Then once you understand them, do the test paths that I laid out there.


Did you test the O2 sensor wiring? It only takes a bad connection to interrupt the signal coming from the O2 sensors and set the code in the computer. Shake the wiring and connectors while doing the testing. You may have a loose connection or broken wire hidden in the O2 sensor circuit. The O2 sensor ground is especially suspect and the O2 sensor heater circuit since they affect both O2 sensors.

The 96 code does not look at fuel pump output. It does look at the fact that the computer saw electrical power coming from the fuel pump relay drop below a preset value. If that is indeed happening, it could explain the code 41/91 lean condition for both sides of the engine.
 
Hey man, like I said, I am not trying to be an ***hole, it's all just overwhelming. I have been a mechanic now for 15 years working on anything from lawnmowers all the way up to jet engines, but I have always been more mech than an electronics tech. Electronics are like voodoo to me, and I always dread when I have a problem in that department. I will say to your comment "The instructions did not come from some manual - I wrote them",that I am impressed. The fact that I did not catch that you wrote them, and that they sounded so professional (like they came from a manual), is a credit to you. I will in fact re-read your instructions and attempt to follow them, however, I am very fascinated with the code 96 info you gave in your last post. The reason I say this, is because tonight I was able to pull codes (KOER) while the light was still on for the first time, and got a code 11. Correct me if I am thinking about this wrong, but that would mean something triggered the light briefly, and then the condition went away much like a power interruption coming from the relay. This could also explain why my spark plugs show no signs of a lean condition. It could be that this lean condition is very short in its duration, and not throughout the entire drive time. My question then becomes what could cause electrical power coming from the fuel pump relay to drop below that preset value? I mean the fuel pump relay is brand new, so could you explain how this works? I would like to try attacking this one first before going through the whole procedure if possible. Thanks.
 
What jrichker is trying to say is to not be overwhelmed by the amount of text on the page. The instructions are written very well and if you take it line by line, you will arrive at the proper diagnosis.


Can a fuel pump be intermittent, and if it can, why do I not experience a power loss?

Oh hell yes. :bang: Because they heat-soak and just quit!


I have never had them tested. What are your thoughts there? Ya think one is going out? Why lean on both sides then?

I would still get them flow tested and refurbished as time permits but I do not believe that this your problem. I think it's your pump. Do NOT replace it with any parts store pump that doesn't say WALBRO on the PART. IF someone hands you and AIRTEX (sp) it's because they hate your face. :fuss:

Even if by some miracle it ends up not being your pump, that thing is probably way overdue.