Crate Engine Builder wants me to go F.A.S.T. EFI over Mass-Flo . . .

Discussion in 'Classic Mustang Specific Tech' started by 70vert, Jun 11, 2009.


  1. 70vert

    70vert New Member

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    Hey all,
    Not naming any names here, but a certain crate engine builder has my block and heads assembled and is recommending the F.A.S.T. system over Mass-Flo, mainly I think for cost reasons, ease of installation, and tunability, but I picked this builder mainly because they are an "approved" Mass-Flo crate builder. Curious that they're recommending something else though . . .
    Anyway, to sum it up, after much research, (though rusty, I did most of the research a year ago) I'm pretty sold on the Mass-Flo kit for the following reasons:

    - It's a known system with Ford parts (except for the GM that has a lot of support and a large knowledge base out there for that reason. Anyone that could diagnose a Ford EFI system should be able to diagnose the Mass-Flo.

    -Self-adjusting to real-world driving conditions. It seems like it would have tamer street manners than any of the various TBI systems out there - FAST, BOSS, Retrotek, ad infinitum. I also will have a relatively low compression, 9-9.5, so I can add forced induction later if need be.

    -Not a TBI, which to me seems to beg the question, "why not just use a carb?" - carbs are great, and for peak power and tunability seem to be unmatched, but I'm after real world driving conditions, manageable power, and MPG. TBI offers some of these, but not seemingly as well as Mass-Flo.

    -Good support from the company. Mass-Flo seems like a quality outfit. Seems to have experience with 351w strokers with their kit.

    -Ability to go with forced induction if I ever go nuts and add that, and support for that.

    What do you guys think? What's their motivation for recommending this FAST kit? Just kick-butt dyno numbers for the initial run? I know Mass-Flo takes a while to "learn" and might not produce a peak dyno run off the bat.

    Thanks for any wisdom in advance . . .
     
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  2. mrmustangman357

    mrmustangman357 Member

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    the FAST system is very tuneable and you can do whatever you want with it. perhaps your combo is so radical a mass-flow kit may not work as well as a completely setup speed-density system
     
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  3. classic boost

    classic boost Founding Member

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    you'll NEVER outgrow a f.a.s.t. system. alot more people running and tuning it, so you'll have much more support.
     
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  4. v8only

    v8only Active Member

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    I know nothing about the fast setup, though if it is a speed density system, properly tuned speed density works well.

    a stock type efi mustang setup would be cheapest by far, and have the most support.
     
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  5. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    are you talking fast XFI or fast EZ_EFI ?
     
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  6. 70vert

    70vert New Member

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    I'd only compare it to the XFI, not EZ-EFI

    Hey all,
    EZ-EFI is throttle body, which I'm dismissing - I don't need totally retro/stock looks, and I feel that SEFI and injecting at the end of the runner is the right way, from an efficiency/reliability/type-of-intake-doesn't-matter standpoint. I am almost certain the Mass-Flo intake will clear my stock '70 mustang hood, unclear on whether the other SEFI kits will, like XFI or Retrotek Powerjection II kits. The Retrotek seems only to support up to 500hp, where if I do forced induction later I could get Mass-Flo up higher than that.

    V8only - The Mass-Flo is based on existing Ford parts and computer, so that's one of the benefits I'm after, the knowledge base of a Ford-based product. The Mass-Flo has the harness I need, so I don't have to hunt. It also seems that with all the experience from real world driving conditions built into the Ford system, I'll have a more stable tune across different conditions of heat, engine load, fuel/air mixture, etc., than a system cooked up and dyno tuned by guys without all the experience of Ford engineers and aftermarket mechanics.

    Classic Boost - I agree in principle, but see above, if it's a Ford based system I should get all that and more in terms of support.

    mrmustangman - That makes sense and it seems that is the best argument for F.A.S.T. It's not so radical, though. Isn't 351w-based 408w the most common Mustang engine upgrade after a hot 302w? Granted, mine will actually be about a 400 with lower compression pistons, but I'd hardly call it "radical", the compression will actually be close to what a stock Mustang might have to run on 89 octane, I'd imagine.


    I need to talk to the builder and to Chris at Mass-Flo again. I already have the Mass-Flo fuel delivery system and I know his kit will fit under my hood, so I'm a little put off by having to revisit this question again. As all you guys know, everything depends on everything else and after spending a long time putting it together, it's a bummer to have to reconsider.
     
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  7. classic boost

    classic boost Founding Member

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    well, it sounds like you're set on the mass-flo. it's your car, your call. if you're happy with your conversations with mass-flo, then go for it.
     
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  8. blown65

    blown65 Founding Member

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    X2, the Fast is a better system, you can go closed loop with a wideband and have tuning your mass-flo can only dream of. I would take the Fast system over any Ford based EFI any day. Why do you think ppl making big power yank out Ford systems and put a Fast system in?
     
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  9. dbfarr

    dbfarr Member

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    AAAAaaack

    Man the fast site is annoying, doesn't anyone keep it simple anymore...

    Stinking flash widgets!
     
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  10. Bullitt

    Bullitt Packin' Heat Founding Member

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    70vert, when considering which system you use you need to look a little bit into your parts selection. For instance, you haven't really listed any specs other than real generic numbers (cubes and compression). One thing that can have a big effect on things is the cam. Some cams work with Ford computers and others don't. Running a speed density system with unlimited tunabilitly like the FAST setup will allow a more radical engine than something based on a stock Ford computer.

    You also haven't mentioned intake type. Since you like the Massflo setup, I'm assuming you want the "carb style" intake? Are you married to that decision or not? A 5.0 style intake has a lot of advantages...

    Anyways, giving us some details on the engine specs might help a bit.
     
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  11. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    the fast xfi system is far superior to the mass flow system and more money, with the fast sequential system you can optimaly tune each cylinders fuel and spark, the mass flo is an excellent system as well but not tunable like the FAST, usually the mass flo will not make as much peak hp as a good carb and intake But will give better drivabilty and fuel economy and make more TQ in low and mid then again I have seen a few dyno tests where a perfect demon carb and dual plane intake made more power and TQ everywhere over the mass flo.

    My opinion is a good wideband self tuning speed density system is better than a mass air system, because you can also fine tune the SD system and there is always an airflow restriction in a mass air type system especially on a high HP engine, now in the real world street car you could use a tweeker to make adjustments on the mass flow system.

    I have been researching this long and hard as well for my 67 verts 408, I had holley TBI's on 2 versions of my 351w worked pretty good.

    The new gen TBI's like the powerjection and ez-efi use high pressure injectors for great atomization and intercooling effect of a wet flow. and wide band 02 with self tuning so now we have better than carb performance at peak HP and drivability of port injection, this is really a good setup but PJ dropped the igntion control and only make a 750cfm model with an ugly computer stuck on the side of what looks like a demon carb and only available in cast alum now it can still do forced induction.

    I am very impressed with the Fast ez efi, 1000 cfm billet throttle body, its own tuning module, self tuning wide band. I was in contact with Butler performance who has tested the system on a big pontiac, they finely tuned a holley 950 hp, then bolted on the ez efi, first pull within 2hp of the carb after running a bit beat the carb by about 10 hp and TQ curve was way better, then installed the fast xfi and spent hrs fine tuning it and this is on a victor jr vs a torker2 and the hp and tq curve between the ez and the xfi were very similar.....I didnt get the numbers but I am thinking they didn't give them to me because the XFI is about 2200.00 more than the ez-efi master kit.

    EZ-efi can not be used with forced induction and has no ignition control, I am told by fast that a new port injected ez-efi will be out in a month ( no ignition control) but will be a couple hundred more than the powerjection 2 MPI which now has no ignition control either.

    Now that you can buy laptop programmable ignitions and distributors I am going the ez efi, I will wait to see what the MPI version costs but since I already have a ported carbed intake the TBI seems the best choice and they can handle over 650hp at 60psi pressure.

    Also, the powerjection and ez-efi both use factory stock sensors and injectors that you can get at any auto parts store. If you read their instruction manuals they give you the part numbers. Mas flo and xfi both do sequential efi vs batch fire of the others but the xfi can make more power and drivability on a higher hp engine.

    I have been on cobra forums, cheby forums, pontiac forums and the new TBI's are a big hit, if Barry Grant comes out with a new self tuning VFI that will be another story.

    Once again not bashing mass flo, but if you want to use stock ford eec electronics and aren't worried about a vintage look, then I'd use a power elbow and all stock ford stuff on a vic jr carbed intake like the efi spyder.
     
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  12. 10secgoal

    10secgoal Active Member

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    FAST. If you want forced induction later, you'll want to tune it how you want. I wouldn't trust a computer to figure out my timing to boost figures.
     
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  13. 70vert

    70vert New Member

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    htwheelz, you really got me thinking about doing the EZ for now

    I think my ultimate goal would be to have a very sorted SEFI system that is "self-learning" to different driving conditions and could be adapted to forced induction, but it's hard to ignore the price/performance of the EZ-EFI as you describe it, the engine builder, and the articles I've read. That's a very convincing argument you make for the EZ-EFI.

    I already bought the fuel delivery system for the Mass-Flo, but I assume all the lines should be able to read the throttle body. I'd have to check what the height is of the EZ-EFI system. It wouldn't be an ultimate dream setup, but it looks like too much is happening in the SEFI aftermarket world and I have some more research to do. I don't want this holding up the engine or to have to spend a ton of $ on a poorly researched SEFI system, so the EZ-EFI is sounding more and more attractive.

    I'm sure I'll be pleased with the performance if I go EZ, just hope that the driveability and fuel economy are good. I have to mull it over, but I'm now leaning that way instead of being stuck on the Mass-Flo. This has all helped immensely! :SNSign:
     
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  14. CraigMBA

    CraigMBA New Member

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    My opinion is strictly anecdotal, but it sure seems like I’ve seen dozens of Mass-Flo stories on the internet of “I can’t get my car to run right”.

    There’s a couple of guys who’ve posted on Mustang Steve’s board who’ve installed the Mass-Flo system and NEVER got their cars to run correctly again.

    If you’re going to do a Ford system, just do a Ford system with the external MAF and make your life simple. If you’re going to do an aftermarket system, I think the FAST system is better because it has your options already unlocked.

    Just my $.02.
     
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  15. bnickel

    bnickel Founding Member

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    keep in mind the EZ-EFI has no ignition control function so you're at a loss there right from the start.

    my personal opinion is with the engine setup i remember you planning on and if you were to run a mild turbo or cebtrifugal blower the Mass-Flo system will work just fine, it may not be as optimized as a full blown Fast setup but it will work fine around town, out on the highway and across the country too. plus the biggest upside is you can parts at almost any BFE parts store in the country since the system is based on the EEC-IV system and uses basically a stock computer with a custom burned chip. if you keep the cam specs fairly mild you shouldn't even need much of a custom tune on the chip if at all, which would make it extra easy to fix in Abilene, TX, Yuma, AZ, Elk Grove, OK or wherever, just walk in and get a new computer for whatever model computer (the serial number is on the computer) disconnect your negative battery cable for about 20 minutes, put the computer in and fire it up and go. there are some parts that wouldn't be so easy to get like the mass-air sensor and their MAF interceptor/interpretor but everything else in that system can be bought anywhere. the same is not so true of the fast system. you could also get a TwEECer to help fine tune your system as well.

    for all out power and infinite tunability go with the Fast system but for longevity and piece of mind i'd use the Mass-Flo system.
     
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  16. blown65

    blown65 Founding Member

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    Comparing tweecer to the to tuning with fast is night and day. The learning curve for tweecer is quite steep compared to the simplicity of Fast. I absolutely hated tweecer. The EZ-EFI must be different than the Fast system I'm used to. Ours does everything, spark and fuel.

    Went and looked at the Fast system, guess ours is the full setup, not the EZ deal. Looks pretty simple however.
     
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  17. bnickel

    bnickel Founding Member

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    i wasn't comparing them, just stating that there were other options for tuning the EEC-IV system than just the custom chip from Mass-Flo and if you'll notice i said for all-out tunability i'd go with the FAST system. for parts availablity and peace of mind out on the highway, though, i'd go with the Mass-Flo system
     
    #17
  18. Rusty67

    Rusty67 Well-Known Member

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    Or you could put a stock Ford computer in there just to get it running and then add an Anderson PMS later for all the tunability you would ever need.
     
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  19. htwheelz67

    htwheelz67 Member

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    I keep dialing the phone to order the ez-efi and then I hang up thinking in a few months there will be a better version the efi systems get better and better and the computers get smaller and smaller and are faster and faster. Why not just get it running with good carb and intake first? I'm going to do my other mods first instead of jumping on efi first although I want it now.

    70 vert, what is your engine combo that you want to put efi on?
     
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  20. 70vert

    70vert New Member

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    Part of my goal here is to just "get 'er done" and get something that the engine builder can get out of there quick. It was their recommendation, after all, easier for them, saves me a bit of money, and it doesn't sound like it's a bad system by any means. The engine is sitting there assembled with heads and just waiting for the intake.

    bnickel and CraigMBA, I think that's where my trepidation with the Mass-Flo comes in, they're had some issues setting up Mass-Flo and the "dozens" of stories about not getting the Mass-Flo to run right give me pause. It seems like Fordmuscle.com made a basic mistake of just connecting an always-on 12v source to what should have been cranking-only and couldn't get over 3k rpm until they figured it out, but it was right there in the instructions. But, once it gets set up, the reliability and ease of finding replacement parts are big benefits. I could still go that way in the long run.

    So far, it seems like systems like Tweecer, Megasquirt, and FAST XFI (they claimed that if you get yourself in trouble with the XFI, you're in deep with laptops and tables) are going to require more time, know-how and laptop tuning than I'm ready to invest right now. But it would be a fun project to sink my teeth into later, and I plan to get to that level at some point.

    It looks like the wide-band nature of the EZ-EFI will be a nice benefit too, for performance if nothing else. I also need to make sure they can do an intake that will clear my hood with this kit.
     
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