emissions

Discussion in '1974 - 1978 Mustang II Talk & Tech' started by 1970impala, May 24, 2005.


  1. LXXVICOBRA

    LXXVICOBRA Founding Member

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    Brian....I noticed this statement too from the onset (in my own manuals), stated it in my first post, and basically drew the same conclusion. But, because some here remain fairly certain to the contrary, I have attempted to ascertain an answer from them to prove otherwise, by first having them check their cars or others for signs of the air injection heads (a key and necessary feature of the system), which would also be the most difficult part in removing any trace of the system.

    Because there were some earlier cars that had thermactor systems without converters, (and I still believe there may have been two different styles of injection systems putting air into the exhaust valves) I've willing to keep an open mind to the possibility of some cars at least having different equiptment than mine. But, either way, logic would dictate that any such system would still require a pump at the very least. I hoped the poster of the '78 system could post some pics of where his tubing attached...(heads or exhaust manifolds?)

    Since I don't have a complete listing of head casting numbers to prove that Ford actually made a 50 state 302 head between '75 and '78 that DIDN'T have this feature, I am willing to assume for now that they didn't. I'd further assume too from that, that any car WITH the air injection port heads also had the air pump and related equiptment, even though the heads can used without any problems if simply blocked off (like mine).

    So, unless Jon can come up with this kind of more conclusive evidence to prove against a thermactor sysytem wasn't installed on his car, it's my guess the judge would have a stronger case it did (by such a published source).
    Sorry Jon...I was trying to put the burden of proof on him, just on principle!
    If you are intent on being 100 percent correct/original in this regard, you'll surely need to continue the hunt for these other items. Getting them all NOS might be as difficult as a NOS white interior. I'd sugest taking way2fast's offer of a complete used setup, and going from there as necessary.
  2. 78Mach1

    78Mach1 Founding Member

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    when I bought my 78 the smog pump was gone, but the pipe across the back of the heads was there, with the ends smashed shut like Mustangj said about his.
  3. LXXVICOBRA

    LXXVICOBRA Founding Member

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    Interesting....
    The article in the June issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines which features a 1978 King Cobra, sheds another twist to this thread... which also supports a theory Cobraman had stated, from his previous experience with some GM cars.

    It states..."For those of you striving a factory correct look, King Cobras built with manual transmissions had an air injection pump. The automatic cars did not."

    It's interesting that the point about the air pumps was even mentioned, since it would seeminly be a rather insignificant piece of info, that most readers would have no interest in. But, in any case, there it was.

    The article appears to have been written with at least some of the information provided by Gary Baum of Second Generation Mustang, a well known II parts supplier and one regarded as having expert knowledge of these cars. So, it certainly might be considered credible and thus very well possible too. But, it does beg the question....what is his source for proving this? It would be nice to know, since none of us can say for sure.

    I'm not certain, but believe Mr. Baum to be (or has been) involved in competition judging, possibly with MCA. To you Jon, as one serious about competing in stock class at such regional or national level shows, I'd suggest you contact him for more info on this, which in turn you might pass on here.

    It's interesting to note one other thing about this whole emissions issue. At least for 1976, 302 manual equipted cars were not available in CA. It's my understanding, that it was because they didn't meet the emission standards. Doesn't it seem ironic then, that the automatic cars (that didn't have the emissions air pumps) were the ones that did?
  4. Vince

    Vince Vince the Fabricator Founding Member

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    That matches what I saw.

  5. 77sleeper

    77sleeper GO BUCS! Founding Member

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    I realize that this was about the King, but my factory 302/c4 San Jose II had one, sooooooooooooooo...................
  6. 1970impala

    1970impala Please God, somebody find me some WHITE CARGO PANE Founding Member

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    HEHE, what is interesting about this is that Gary Baum was standing next to my car for an hour an a 1/2 this past Sunday shooting the breeze at a car show. I didn't raise the issue to him because we were discussing so many other things...info that i was tapping about other things. But no matter, I will be seeing him in a day or so upstate so i will ask him then. You are absolutely correct about his knowledge about II's..and Phil is up there as well.

    I appreciate everyone's research, especially LXXVICOBRA into this as this seems to be the "dark side" of the MII force. The incredible issue that is never discussed. I still am absolutely convinced my 77, 302 automatic did NOT have the pump or the tube. I have no reason to believe anything was modified under the hood or the exhaust.

    YES, my car has a catalytic convertor.....in fact, the original cat, muffler and pipes. but I still believe that was the extent...if the 78 automatic did not have a pump, as recorded, with the 77 being very close to the 78, wouldn't it fall to reason that perhaps there is a percentageable doubt that the 77, 302, auto, could follow the same line? :shrug:

    If anyone sees an extra copy of that Hemmings magazine about the II's, could some snag it for me please?????
  7. LXXVICOBRA

    LXXVICOBRA Founding Member

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    Well Jon, without any factual evidence to prove your initial claim, some of us could only go by what seemed most logical from reasoning and the various sources available which were clearly leaning against it. I enjoyed trying to figure this out and assist, regardless of outcome.
    Since I felt strongly (and perhaps now incorrectly) that the air pump would be installed on all cars having the thermactor system...I felt the best proof of everything would be found checking the backs of your heads. Just a guess at this point, but I'm still thinking that all 302's of that vintage had the air injected heads just the same. Yours are probably just plugged from the factory. I'd be curious to know what was used to accomplish this.

    Sure, I agree that if this was the case of cars for '78, it may be true of '77's as well. Gary should be able to confim that for you, since he is the recognized expert and seemingly aware of this subject.

    Vince:
    Sorry, I did see your post in the beginning....I just forgot you too had mentioned this about the manuals and autos in regard to everything. I appreciated your imput too. I kept your observation in mind for consideration, but couldn't make a certain judgement in favor of it based soley on what someone else told you at a car show. I'm glad you posted it though, because it now seems to really support the likelyhood of this actually being true....instead of just going on some the say so of a judge or other "experts", without some concrete proof.

    Sleeper: Seems everything that came out of San Jose, was an exception to the rule! I'm not going to speculate further on that! :D
  8. Vince

    Vince Vince the Fabricator Founding Member

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    No worries LXXVICOBRA.

    Some of you guys may remember the smogless King Cobra I was referring to. The owner used to have the "King Cobra Online" webpage a few years back, complete with disco music on the front page. He restored his navy blue KC to concourse condition, and he swore it had no smog pump from the factory. I wish I'd kept pictures of the engine compartment.
  9. 1970impala

    1970impala Please God, somebody find me some WHITE CARGO PANE Founding Member

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    :hail2: :hail2: :hail2: :banana: :banana: :banana:
  10. THE COBRAMAN

    THE COBRAMAN pig 'rassler Founding Member

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    I'm not really sure what bearing a KC would have on this discussion, since kings are '78s, and the topic was related to '77.

    Every original '78 302 car I have seen had a pump, but then, they were all 4 speeds.
  11. LXXVICOBRA

    LXXVICOBRA Founding Member

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    It may, or it may not. I was just agreeing, that IF it were to be true in regard to the '78's, it MAY be for the '77's as well. Hopefully, Jon will be able to get an answer that is more clear and supported by documentation of some sort.
    Without it, I'm still willing to believe moreso at this point, that the manuals got it, and the autos did not.....especially as more and more owners can verify this being so in regard to their cars.
    Unfortunatly, the dwindling number of original and/or unmodified cars makes this kind of thing harder and harder to determine as time goes by.
  12. 1970impala

    1970impala Please God, somebody find me some WHITE CARGO PANE Founding Member

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    Hi, my first day back at work since Carlisle. Wonderful turnout for our II's. The most i have ever seen ever. There were approx. 18-19 Ii's there and a nice cobra ii (78) for sale for 10,500 and a mach 1 for 4500. What a turnout!

    anyway, i have the answer. I spent over an hour with Gary talking about this. the answer.......THERE ARE 77'S THAT HAD NO SMOG PUMP OR TUBING! He said it is a fact. If you have a 77 and manual transmission, then yes, you are supposed to have one on there...however, 77 and auto...NO, there were 77's made with no smog pump from the factory. His words, not mine.

    :banana: :banana: :banana: Thanks to everyone here!! That means my car had no smog pump NOR a power steering cooler in front of the buck tag like most. Kind of interesting. :)
  13. 77sleeper

    77sleeper GO BUCS! Founding Member

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    ummmm.......... I had one
  14. LXXVICOBRA

    LXXVICOBRA Founding Member

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    Jon,
    Glad you got a chance to talk to him about it...it's just too bad that he wasn't able to cite a source of his information. Not that I really doubt it, just that I hate to go soley on someone's word or conclusion about such things, regardless of who that might be. Thats' why I would hope that any such trivial fact that might be judged or questioned by show judges, should be able to be proved one way or another...by them, and with proof of some sort.

    I mean, unless he had specific info to verify this claim, it's open to some question by the fact he hasn't seen every II fitting this description ever made, and because someone like Sleeper (for example) is claiming otherwise.
    Perhaps the San Jose cars were an exception here?

    Anyway, I never paid much attention regarding the power steering coolers and setups. I'm pretty sure the '77's or 78's used a different pump than my '76... and my 4 speed car doesn't have a cooler either.
  15. 77sleeper

    77sleeper GO BUCS! Founding Member

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    I bet it was a SJ only "CA emissions thing"

    but I hate the never, all, none statements
  16. myfirstii

    myfirstii Founding Member

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    My 78 with the v8 and c4 which was built in 77 didnt come with a smog pump. I bought the car with 18000 original miles so i know it wasnt messed with.
    Pat
  17. 1970impala

    1970impala Please God, somebody find me some WHITE CARGO PANE Founding Member

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    Thanks for posting this. Gary mentioned "some" not "all" 77 automatic's did not have smog pumps. He was clear on this.......but did say, yes, there were ones that definitelty did not have one. Like myfirstii, I truly believe this to be the case with me.

    I then told him he made my day. :D
  18. Power Surge

    Power Surge Founding Member

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    Wonder where I've heard that before ;).

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