Synthetic Oil Question

[rs-turbo]

Hi all,

Been a while since I made a post here, but got sucked up reading this one. Many good points, so thought I'd add my 5 cents. I have been an Amsoil Dealer for several years now, and was using Amsoil off and on for about 15 years before that. I'll try to avoid the debate on why you should change less or more, this is always being discussed. I will say Amsoil has promoted extended drains for over 30 years now, and were the first to promote this. Mobil 1 used to, but as they decided to stay competing more in the same price arena as the newer synthetics, they have changed their additive package and are less robost. Don't get me wrong, they are still a good oil, and if Amsoil were not out there, and knowing what I have learned in the past few years, I would be using Mobil. Here are some points, to address some of the concerns mentioned:

Warranties: First off, Amsoil does warrant their oil for whatever the rating of the oil is you end up using. The XL-7500 line, of which the 5W-20 is a part of, is a 7500 mile oil or six months. Most of their line is 25K or one year (Amsoil filter change after 12.5K or 6 months, or per filter recommendation if you use a different one). The Series 2000, which the 0W-30 mentioned here is a part of, is actually a 35K mile or one year oil. Of course, these intervals change with turbo applications, racing, etc. If there should be a failure due to the oil breaking down during that time period, Amsoil will cover it. Some Dealerships will comment that you need to change more often or void the Ford warranty. This is not true. If there is a part that fails, they MUST cover that part unless the oil was the cause of the failure. If they try to get you to use their oil and filters, then they, by law, are required to supply them free of charge. We used to run into this problem with the Harley Davidson market for years. BTW, Hastings makes the Amsoil filters per Amsoil's recommendations. This is why we are now able to purchase many Hastings products for our customers as well.

Types of oils: There are two synthetics out there now. Most ALL synthetics these days are a Group III oil. This is an oil made with a petroleum basestock. The poster that mentioned Castrol and Mobil was correct. A few years ago Castrol changed Syntech to this formula and Mobil sued them because it was not a PAO basestock, the common base at the time. Most "genuine synthetics" are man made in a lab using PAO as the base and using additives such as esters to boost the formula. This now not so new basestock is made with the same base your dino oil is made from, but is refined much better and uses additives to boost it. The question is, how long does it last? Some manufacturers are finding that these Group III fluids do well, but once the additives wear out, they are prone to the same break down as the Group II dino oils. In fact, some manufacturers who recommend synthetic gear lubes, etc, are finding they may need to specify which synthetic now to run. Almost all the synthetics out there have switched to this less expensive and more profitable Group III oil. Amsoil's XL-7500 line is a Group III. Since they only are rated for 7500 miles, this base works just fine. All their other lines are still a genuine PAO Group IV oil. Mobil 1 is still a Group IV oil, although there have been some debates on a few of their additives "watering down" the synthetic aspect of it.

Extended Drains: As mentioned, Amsoil has been doing this for 30+ years. And earlier this year in Lubes and Greases magazine, one of the industry trade mags, extended drains were discussed and how the oil industry pulls the wool over the consumer's eyes. In some cases these same oils only rated for normal drains here in the U.S. are going at least twice as long in other countries. According to the author, the U.S. does waste a lot of oil. The gentleman who wrote the article used to work for the API, so he is familiar with the inner workings. I have this article, and some others listed on my Web Site (www.technilube.com) or you can also find it on the Amsoil Corporate Web Site, if it is still posted. They just posted a follow up article he did this month. But while many of the oils out there, especialy synthetic, are able to run longer intervals, their warranty does not. So should you have an engine failure, and it indeed is because you ran the oil longer than the oil manufacture's recommended drain, you are out of luck. The article specifically mentions the Amsoil warranty, and for many, this is just extra security.

Do you need Synthetic? For most of us the answer is yes. Sure you can do normal drains with dino oil, but the synthetic is designed to flow better in cold weather, and protect in hotter temps. If you blow a radiator hose and loose all your coolant, and have no where to go but keep driving, would you trust your oil to keep protecting under these conditions. A dino oil will be falling apart once your engine hits around 260 degrees, which you probably aren't far from at normal operation (oil temps will be hotter than coolant temps). I like to know my oil will still be doing the job way over 400 degrees. This happened to me with an old E-150 van with the 5.0 that lost the water pump and I still drove about 20 miles home with no fluid. Just before home I finally had to stop, but after cooling was able to drive home, fixed the pump and ran the same oil longer. After 10K I changed my oil and did analysis, and the oil was still perfectly good. This was the Amsoil Series 2000 0W-30.

What I use. Naturally I'm fully synthetic everywhere I can to help promote my business. I run the Series 2000 0W-30 in my 99 GT. My first drain had about 20K on it, analysis said the oil was still good. Now I have a bypass filter installed, and have 27K on my second oil change. Analysis was done around 23-24K (have to check) and the oil was still good. I will be honest, my viscocity did change a bit this time around and it is now up to a 40 weight, but still fully capable, and showed no wear at all taking place in the engine. The viscocity change is believed to be due to some of the mods I have done and a PCV valve I found then found bad.

About 5W-20 oils. This was done by Honda and Ford to get a little better MPG for the records. The engines never changed from those previously using 5W-30 oil. I'm using the 5W-30 in my wife's 2002 Honda. But studies now are showing many of the 5W-20 oils are not holding up. When they get hot, the lesser robost oils are dropping down to around a 10 weight and actually allowing wear to take place. Sure you are getting better MPG at first, but around 100K on the engine, they are finding more wear than when using the 5W-30. I believe it was Noria who first mentioned this. Oddly, some of the same cars now recommended to use the 5W-20 are still recommended to use the 5W-30 outside the U.S.

Other synthetic fluids: I'm using Amsoil's ATF (Mercon V) in my 5 speed tranny, and the Series 2000 75W-90 in the rear. Switching to synthetics in these areas you will probably see the temp drop, if you have a way of monitoring, and possibly even an increase in MPG. One of the Dealers I know works a lot with the Powerstroke community and they were finding Ford's fill for life synthetic fluid in the rear wasn't holding up and after a few thousand miles of use had lost it's viscocity and gears discolored from heat. I believe the fluid Ford uses is a Group III synthetic. When I changed the auto tranny fluid in my 96 Grand Voyager, my MPG went up approx 1-2 miles.

I don't want to flame anyone here. If you like changing more and fell better doing so, more power to you, and maybe it's even a good thing depending on the brand of oil you are using, especially if it is a Group III oil. While, myself and the other Dealers I work with promote the extended drains, like the big oil manufacturers, we sure don't mind if someone wants to buy after every 3K.

 

[snkypete]

Excellent information Mike, thanks for taking the time to write it up.

 

[Grey01]

I have read through all of the posts on this topic, and I don't think the following questions have been brought up. No flame here, but I think a little more detailed facts about the analyses required for the long duration (ie, 25K) oil changes is in order.

First, we are talking about at-home oil changes here, right?
We can't take our car to a quick oil change shop and have them just change the filter, and send off for an oil analysis, can we? And if we do it ourselves, exactly what does an oil analysis cost? Please include all the costs, such as shipping, etc. And how often do we do an oil analysis? Some people who run less than say 12K/yr would not want to drive their car for an extended period of time with bad oil, so I would think analyses at least 2 to 4 times/yr for this lower type of mileage would be required. And how do you get some oil out of the motor for the analysis without some effort and mess? And how does one change their filter without changing the oil? I know, let the oil drain in a really clean pan, but who has a really clean oil drain pan around their garage?

My point is that I believe that doing the amount of oil analyses and filter only changes necessary to effectively implement a long duration oil change routine would be more time consuming, messy, and maybe even cost more than shorter routine changes of oil and filter simultaneously! Please, only factual responses; no emotional, defensive outbursts. TIA

 

[snkypete]

I have read through all of the posts on this topic, and I don't think the following questions have been brought up. No flame here, but I think a little more detailed facts about the analyses required for the long duration (ie, 25K) oil changes is in order.

First, we are talking about at-home oil changes here, right?

No, basically you take a sample and send it out to a certified lab. Amsoil will do it, so will Blackstone - http://www.blackstone-labs.com

We can't take our car to a quick oil change shop and have them just change the filter, and send off for an oil analysis, can we?

You don't analyze the filter, you send a small 4oz vial off.

And if we do it ourselves, exactly what does an oil analysis cost?

Blackstone provides the kit for free, analysis is $20.00. Amsoil is a little cheaper, I'd have to look up what retail cost is.

Please include all the costs, such as shipping, etc. And how often do we do an oil analysis?

It really depends upon the driving conditions - most seem to sample every 10k miles.

Some people who run less than say 12K/yr would not want to drive their car for an extended period of time with bad oil, so I would think analyses at least 2 to 4 times/yr for this lower type of mileage would be required.

No, see above. Synthetic will not break down that quickly.

And how do you get some oil out of the motor for the analysis without some effort and mess?

If you have a bypass filter, you can get a small port on the side of it, basically a petcock valve. Open the valve, fill the vial. Done.

And how does one change their filter without changing the oil? I know, let the oil drain in a really clean pan, but who has a really clean oil drain pan around their garage?

Very simple. Take off the filter, put on new filter. Why would you drain the oil if you're not changing it?

My point is that I believe that doing the amount of oil analyses and filter only changes necessary to effectively implement a long duration oil change routine would be more time consuming, messy, and maybe even cost more than shorter routine changes of oil and filter simultaneously! Please, only factual responses; no emotional, defensive outbursts. TIA

Taking a sample is quite simple and takes under 2 minutes, so obviously it's not more time consuming. Using the petcock, you don't spill a drop - you're more like to spill oil changing a filter. Assuming $5/qt and a 5qt pan it's $25 in oil for a change - if done every 3 or 5,000 miles that would be $75 or $50 for every 10,000 miles. One analysis every 10,000 as stated is $20 so it is not more expensive.

Obviously the first analysis would be done at a shorter interval and depending upon the results, that will determine when to do the next. There was just a guy on the PSD mailing list who had a sample come back recently with high levels of one metal (I don't recall what it was). Basically they asked how he took the sample (vehicle should be warm, sample should not be taken from bottom of pan if possible) and he is going to retest his oil.....which brings up another point. It's not just about prolonged drain intervals - if his report comes back positive again, it is indicative of an internal motor problem. While Ford won't do anything proactively, he does know that he has an impending issue.

Hope that helps answer your questions....

 

[TomBadger]

A little insight to synthetic oil change intervals from a different perspective.
I have been working on aircraft for 18 1/2 years, jet engine aircraft only. We use synthetic oils to lubricate these extremely high-powered engines. The oil is changed every 500-1000 FLYING hours (depending on model). Doing the math, that equates out to every 30,000-60,000 miles if you were to drive at an average of 60 MPH. We check the magnetic chip detectors and checked for clogged filters (popped filter buttons) after every flight. These engines spin at up to ( and sometimes beyond) 11,000 RPM, so you know the oil is taking one heck of a beating. The oil is sampled every 50 flying hours (3000 miles) and I can count on one hand how many engine changes I have had to do due to samples showing high metal count. It is not unusual for the engines to last over 2500 hours before scheduled overhaul (150,000 miles). Synthetic oils (high quality ones) should last a long time, and that is an understatement. With good maintenance practices and a good analysis schedule, there is no reason any synthetic oil cannot last 30,000 miles. I am going to convert to amsoil at the next oil change and start analizing it at regular intervals, instead of contributing to the already swollen underbelly of the petrolium industry. Heck, the already get too much from me every time I stop at the pump.
Just my two cents, and I hope a few people look at oil change interviews a little differently.

 

[Grey01]

Snkypete,

Thanks for the reply.

I'll try one more time to bring a little of the real world into this thread.

First, a lot of car owners, including Mustang owners, have their oil changed at various businesses (dealers, oil express places, etc). They do this for various reasons; don't have the time or the inclination to do it themselves, aren't mechhanically inclined, don't want to be exposed to the carscinogins (sp) in used oil, etc. This relatively large group of peple aren't going to go the long duration, oil analysis route for the above reasons.

Second, we have shown that the cost of a couple of analyses and two oil changes per year is pretty close in cost: >$40 for analysis-[you didn't include the shipping costs] versus $50.00 for the oil changes. So savings in cost is not going to be a big decision factor for most people.

Third, the number of politically correct environmentalists who will go long oil changes to save the world's oil is regrettably probably quite small.

Fourth, the large number of people on this topic who have indicated they feel better when they change oil frequently -rightly or wrongly - shows you are not pushing a popular agenda which seems to be to educate the masses as to the error of their ways.

No offense, but all of the above should convince you that when you push your views on long duration oil changes to the extreme, you come across as anal retentive and self centered. I respectfully would suggest that you try to understand more about how the imperfect real world works and put less emphasis on how much you know. Just my thoughts.

 

[1fast03pony]

Snkypete,

Thanks for the reply.

I'll try one more time to bring a little of the real world into this thread.

First, a lot of car owners, including Mustang owners, have their oil changed at various businesses (dealers, oil express places, etc). They do this for various reasons; don't have the time or the inclination to do it themselves, aren't mechhanically inclined, don't want to be exposed to the carscinogins (sp) in used oil, etc. This relatively large group of peple aren't going to go the long duration, oil analysis route for the above reasons.

Second, we have shown that the cost of a couple of analyses and two oil changes per year is pretty close in cost: >$40 for analysis-[you didn't include the shipping costs] versus $50.00 for the oil changes. So savings in cost is not going to be a big decision factor for most people.

Third, the number of politically correct environmentalists who will go long oil changes to save the world's oil is regrettably probably quite small.

Fourth, the large number of people on this topic who have indicated they feel better when they change oil frequently -rightly or wrongly - shows you are not pushing a popular agenda which seems to be to educate the masses as to the error of their ways.

No offense, but all of the above should convince you that when you push your views on long duration oil changes to the extreme, you come across as anal retentive and self centered. I respectfully would suggest that you try to understand more about how the imperfect real world works and put less emphasis on how much you know. Just my thoughts.

Well said, but there is no error here, just a matter of preference and comfort.

 

[Sam98]

Me too. 5w30 Mobil 1 synthetic.

Here's another vote for Mobil 1 synthetic 5W-30... :worship:

 

[rs-turbo]

First, a lot of car owners, including Mustang owners, have their oil changed at various businesses (dealers, oil express places, etc). They do this for various reasons; don't have the time or the inclination to do it themselves, aren't mechhanically inclined, don't want to be exposed to the carscinogins (sp) in used oil, etc. This relatively large group of peple aren't going to go the long duration, oil analysis route for the above reasons.

This is true. A lot of what has been mentioned is for the do-it-your-selfer. The everyday person who probably doesn't care, just has the quick lube put whatever in. In many of these cases, they might not even care what is put into their engine, or just may not be aware yet. The attitude is "oil is oil, correct?" I've run into this many times. But with the more advanced engines, oil specifics are getting more important. New demands on oils are coming out every few years. Expect another in the next year or so. The oil you used yesterday, is not rated to run in today's modern engines. There is a movement in California to remove the Group I dino oils from the shelves. Why? Because these oils are not rated for the newer engines and actually harm them. But the uneducated consumer runs into their convenience store, sees a generic bottle of 5W-30 and thinks "oil-is-oil" and buys it. And then they wonder when they develop an engine problem later. Today's consumers are getting smarter, partly due to forums such as this one. The TV commercials and magazine ads by the name brand oil companies are making "synthetics" a common phrase. When Amsoil first came out, no one heard of the word (except the aircraft industry), so no one believed in it. Thanks to all the promotions over the years, selling Amsoil is much easier today, people now connect the word "synthetic" with quality. Amsoil developed their XL-7500 line of oil for this more common group of people. It is only rated for 7500 miles. They bought and paid for the API logo on the bottle, so concerned consumers, who do not know a lot about oils can simply go into their Quick Lube shop and get a fast and simple change with no worries. For most of these people, they don't need to think about stepping up to an even higher grade of synthetic, they are either not prepared, don't know there is one, or just don't care more than knowing any synthetic is supposed to be better than petroleum (not always the case, though). And this is fine. Most any synthetic will work great for them. Ten years ago it was hard to find a synthetic in many of the shops you mentioned, but today it is common to see several brands available. This must mean the average consumer is being educated on the better quality of a synthetic oil. Are extended drains really that far behind now?

Back in the 80s, my Honda already had a 7500 mile drain interval stamped in the engine compartment. But wasn't (and in many cases still is) the common conception a 3000 mile drain? Why are we talking 5000 to 7000 mile drains in this forum? Because that's what are manuals are now saying. What has changed? Better engines, better oils? Yes to both. In Europe the drains average around 10K already, and many of the newer cars are steering towards higher drains here in the U.S. Studies are finding that the average consumers don't like changing their oil, and are liking the thought of extended drains. But this will mean oils need to start thinking about what the consumer wants. Amsoil has for 30 years. Some of the other companies out there are starting to promote extended drains, although they don't give specifics (Quaker State, I think). For many oil companies this will mean it will cost more to produce a better longer lasting oil, they'll need more additives to bring the TBN numbers up to handle the acids produced. Big problem in the diesel market right now as it is changing with EGR valves and new demands being placed on it. Specs are being held back by the API, because they know most diesel oil company manufacturers don't have anything to handle the new demands.

Those consumers that are a little more concerned with their vehicle might go out and compare the differences between oils. I'm sure most of the people online here are at least curious. Why do people spend more and use a better rated tire, when a lower grade and cheaper tire is still round and will roll them down the road just as well? Performance? Better handling? Knowing the tire can do more if it needs to should the occassion require it? You're oil is the same way. If all you do is basic driving, a basic oil will probably do just as good as the better oil. But if for some reason you suddenly have to demand more from your oil (water pump goes out, loose a radiator hose, sub-zero temps, lots of milage driving), wouldn't you feel more comfortable knowing the oil you are using can perform then as well?

Second, we have shown that the cost of a couple of analyses and two oil changes per year is pretty close in cost: >$40 for analysis-[you didn't include the shipping costs] versus $50.00 for the oil changes. So savings in cost is not going to be a big decision factor for most people.

Not sure about Blackstone, but you can buy the Amsoil kit postage paid. This gets sent to Oil Analyzers, but since so many people have commented about them and Amsoil working too closely together, they now are shipping it to another lab to do the work so they can't be accused of fixing the results. The Amsoil kits runs $24.95 with postage included, or if you are a Dealer, or Preferred Customer, it is $18.95. It's about the same for the various other accounts available from Amsoil. I think they do a few additional tests that Blackstone doesn't, TBN being one, I believe.

True depending on your driving conditions, this might not even be an option for cost effectiveness. For those curious about what is happening in their engine, or just want to document how the oil is doing during this period, it's additional knowledge. That I believe is the point of the once per year drain or 25K Amsoil offers. Don't do analysis, just change the oil after a year. For many of my customers this is good for them, along with knowing Amsoil backs them up and has been doing it for 30 years this way. My wife hates taking her car into the dealer with her work schedule to get an oil change and is the main reason why she likes Amsoil. I put it in and she doesn't have to worry about it for a year. So cost isn't the only factor, also the convenience of not needing to think about the change. That I would think would benefit the "average" consumer you mentioned above who might not be the "do-it-yourselfer."

Third, the number of politically correct environmentalists who will go long oil changes to save the world's oil is regrettably probably quite small.

No argument here. But it is probably this small group that helps to influence the EPA. Newer cars are required to be more environmentally friendly every year. That's why there was the change from 5W-30 to 5W-20, it makes MPG numbers look better. Extended drains are being introduced with many new cars, Mercedes, GM, etc. As this continues, it won't be the environmentalists that will be the only ones doing this, the average consumer will be as well.

Fourth, the large number of people on this topic who have indicated they feel better when they change oil frequently -rightly or wrongly - shows you are not pushing a popular agenda which seems to be to educate the masses as to the error of their ways.

Hopefully I don't sound like I'm pushing an agenda, but the auto industry is slowly going that route. If you are more comfortable changing more often, go for it. But there are other options. Usually when this is mentioned, I see the discussion of it being impossible to go extended drains, and that's when I point out oil analysis. Not to promote that everyone should do analysis, but more that if you don't believe me, test your own oil, see how it is doing. Then you will have your own numbers, in your own car, not have to hear someone elses "story." This was why I started doing analysis, even in the vehicles I still change the oil every year on. I wanted to see exactly how the oil was holding up under the conditions it was under in my vehicles. Also gives me a "real world" print out I can show someone who asks, rather than a piece of literature that the doubters will say is fake propoganda.

Well, this is long enough again. Have a Happy New Year all.

 

[Sam98]

This is true. A lot of what has been mentioned is for the do-it-your-selfer. The everyday person who probably doesn't care, just has the quick lube put whatever in. In many of these cases, they might not even care what is put into their engine, or just may not be aware yet. The attitude is "oil is oil, correct?" I've run into this many times. But with the more advanced engines, oil specifics are getting more important. New demands on oils are coming out every few years. Expect another in the next year or so. The oil you used yesterday, is not rated to run in today's modern engines. There is a movement in California to remove the Group I dino oils from the shelves. Why? Because these oils are not rated for the newer engines and actually harm them. But the uneducated consumer runs into their convenience store, sees a generic bottle of 5W-30 and thinks "oil-is-oil" and buys it. And then they wonder when they develop an engine problem later. Today's consumers are getting smarter, partly due to forums such as this one. The TV commercials and magazine ads by the name brand oil companies are making "synthetics" a common phrase. When Amsoil first came out, no one heard of the word (except the aircraft industry), so no one believed in it. Thanks to all the promotions over the years, selling Amsoil is much easier today, people now connect the word "synthetic" with quality. Amsoil developed their XL-7500 line of oil for this more common group of people. It is only rated for 7500 miles. They bought and paid for the API logo on the bottle, so concerned consumers, who do not know a lot about oils can simply go into their Quick Lube shop and get a fast and simple change with no worries. For most of these people, they don't need to think about stepping up to an even higher grade of synthetic, they are either not prepared, don't know there is one, or just don't care more than knowing any synthetic is supposed to be better than petroleum (not always the case, though). And this is fine. Most any synthetic will work great for them. Ten years ago it was hard to find a synthetic in many of the shops you mentioned, but today it is common to see several brands available. This must mean the average consumer is being educated on the better quality of a synthetic oil. Are extended drains really that far behind now?

Back in the 80s, my Honda already had a 7500 mile drain interval stamped in the engine compartment. But wasn't (and in many cases still is) the common conception a 3000 mile drain? Why are we talking 5000 to 7000 mile drains in this forum? Because that's what are manuals are now saying. What has changed? Better engines, better oils? Yes to both. In Europe the drains average around 10K already, and many of the newer cars are steering towards higher drains here in the U.S. Studies are finding that the average consumers don't like changing their oil, and are liking the thought of extended drains. But this will mean oils need to start thinking about what the consumer wants. Amsoil has for 30 years. Some of the other companies out there are starting to promote extended drains, although they don't give specifics (Quaker State, I think). For many oil companies this will mean it will cost more to produce a better longer lasting oil, they'll need more additives to bring the TBN numbers up to handle the acids produced. Big problem in the diesel market right now as it is changing with EGR valves and new demands being placed on it. Specs are being held back by the API, because they know most diesel oil company manufacturers don't have anything to handle the new demands.

Those consumers that are a little more concerned with their vehicle might go out and compare the differences between oils. I'm sure most of the people online here are at least curious. Why do people spend more and use a better rated tire, when a lower grade and cheaper tire is still round and will roll them down the road just as well? Performance? Better handling? Knowing the tire can do more if it needs to should the occassion require it? You're oil is the same way. If all you do is basic driving, a basic oil will probably do just as good as the better oil. But if for some reason you suddenly have to demand more from your oil (water pump goes out, loose a radiator hose, sub-zero temps, lots of milage driving), wouldn't you feel more comfortable knowing the oil you are using can perform then as well?



Not sure about Blackstone, but you can buy the Amsoil kit postage paid. This gets sent to Oil Analyzers, but since so many people have commented about them and Amsoil working too closely together, they now are shipping it to another lab to do the work so they can't be accused of fixing the results. The Amsoil kits runs $24.95 with postage included, or if you are a Dealer, or Preferred Customer, it is $18.95. It's about the same for the various other accounts available from Amsoil. I think they do a few additional tests that Blackstone doesn't, TBN being one, I believe.

True depending on your driving conditions, this might not even be an option for cost effectiveness. For those curious about what is happening in their engine, or just want to document how the oil is doing during this period, it's additional knowledge. That I believe is the point of the once per year drain or 25K Amsoil offers. Don't do analysis, just change the oil after a year. For many of my customers this is good for them, along with knowing Amsoil backs them up and has been doing it for 30 years this way. My wife hates taking her car into the dealer with her work schedule to get an oil change and is the main reason why she likes Amsoil. I put it in and she doesn't have to worry about it for a year. So cost isn't the only factor, also the convenience of not needing to think about the change. That I would think would benefit the "average" consumer you mentioned above who might not be the "do-it-yourselfer."



No argument here. But it is probably this small group that helps to influence the EPA. Newer cars are required to be more environmentally friendly every year. That's why there was the change from 5W-30 to 5W-20, it makes MPG numbers look better. Extended drains are being introduced with many new cars, Mercedes, GM, etc. As this continues, it won't be the environmentalists that will be the only ones doing this, the average consumer will be as well.



Hopefully I don't sound like I'm pushing an agenda, but the auto industry is slowly going that route. If you are more comfortable changing more often, go for it. But there are other options. Usually when this is mentioned, I see the discussion of it being impossible to go extended drains, and that's when I point out oil analysis. Not to promote that everyone should do analysis, but more that if you don't believe me, test your own oil, see how it is doing. Then you will have your own numbers, in your own car, not have to hear someone elses "story." This was why I started doing analysis, even in the vehicles I still change the oil every year on. I wanted to see exactly how the oil was holding up under the conditions it was under in my vehicles. Also gives me a "real world" print out I can show someone who asks, rather than a piece of literature that the doubters will say is fake propoganda.

Well, this is long enough again. Have a Happy New Year all.

It's hard to know where to start with this. I never base my decision to do anything on what radical environmentalists claim because those claims are long on "feel good" political correctness and very short on real science. I have never seen these environmentalists (or the EPA) take responsibility for the consequences of following their recommendations. For example, if NASA had ignored these characters, the foam that broke off of the main tank on the space shuttle Columbia and eventually led to it's destruction wouldn't have. Follow their recommendations if you want to feel good, but don't expect them to pony up and pay for a new engine when yours wears out prematurely. Motor oil does not hold up long at over 200 degrees and when it breaks down it doesn't lubricate as well. Engines run at this temperature to lower exhaust emissions and promote better gas mileage. Running the engine a little hotter would at least allow condensation to boil off, but that would be even harder on the oil and condensation isn't much of a problem here in the high altitude desert. Synthetics hold up better under the heat, but not well enough for me to stop changing my oil regularly (3000 miles/3 months whichever comes first). I am perfectly content with getting 20 mpg around town and still having over 300 RWHP when I want it...

 

[rx7speed]

I talked with an Amsoil lubrication specialist, and he said the Amsoil 0W-30 is far superior to the Amsoil 5W-20.

I'm guessing that the Amsoil 5W-20 is a diluted version of the 0W-30, although I don't know for sure.

So I use Amsoil 0W-30.

Then again, I'll never take my Mustang GT to a dealer for service or repairs, so I'm not worried about the warranty.

Currently, I have been using Amsoil 0W-30 for almost all of my 30,000 miles, and I've never had any problems.

don't see how itwould be far better

that I guess depends on climate and driving conditions

one thing though a 0-30 vs 5-20 the 0-30 has more addatives in there to help make for a wider stretch between cold and warm viscosity

which can lead for more deposits

 

[rx7speed]

Yes, with a GOOD synthetic it can last well over 20k miles (assuming the filter is changed as scheduled). Oil color is irrelevant, and only the dino juice dies quickly. Again, the ONLY way to tell if the oil needs to be changed is with an analysis.

the reason a lot of those oils last so long is due to addatives
when oil goes through it's normal proccess there are things that help with shearing and protect when oil isn't present and get broken down and used up

would rather not have those things floating around in my oil all those miles but instead use a good synthetic and change it more often this way I have more room for more oil itself so I can do with less deposits
but then again with how many miles I would change it on synthetic I don't know yet
damn rotary motors are weird with oiling being that I am supposed to burn oil and oil is used a lot more for cooling then with a piston motor
so I'm sure there is a lot more stress on my oil then on a few other cars here

those things are nice
but when you have a lot of them floating around it isn't the greatest thing

 

[rx7speed]

Seems like there are some people in here who know something about oil

What about Castrol Syntec? That's what my mechanics use, and they say that it meets or exceeds the standards for all manufacturer warranties - and that it should be changed ~7500 miles or so.

What do you all think?

Also, is there any harm in changing from Castrol to another synthetic?

from what I remember somewhere castrol is not a TRUE synthetic

it still has some of the deposits in it that dino juice can leave

but I would say it is a a lot better then dino none the less

would say though if you want synthetic get something else like amsoil, or mobil 1

though if you wish to stay dino juice castrol GTX does seem to work very well


wish I had some of the links I once ran into

 

[Grey01]

Okay, long duration once versus short duration several times. Ladies, want to jump in here?

All seriousness aside, I have a special lubrication case. Er, I mean the car! I basically only use my 2001 Mustang GT for bracket drag racing, including the drive back and forth to the track. The car is over two years old, but only has 4600 miles on it. Kept in a garage under a car cover since I bought it new. However, it has already made approximately 150 runs down the 1/8th mile track and I expect to put at least 100 more runs on it this year. I have changed the oil twice since new, both using Ford's recommended 5w20 oil and filter. I am about to change oil again. Thought I would try Mobil1's new 0w20. See if I could pick up a little performance. Now obviously, for this unusual low mileage, severe duty application, 12,500 miles between changes is absurd. Why, the car will probably be over 5 years old before it sees 12,500 miles on it. What say you to this case? Think 1000-2000 miles between oil changes (ie, every 6 months) might be about right?

 

[TomBadger]

I hope nobody miusunderstood me. I don't preach long-interval oil changes, I just wanted to say that with synthetics, you can feel one heck of a lot better going over "normal" oil change intervals than with dino oil. I know I am going to go a lot longer between oil changes, because I am sick of paying the disposal fee every two to three months to the oh-so-frugal-california-government and I am willing to do whatever it takes to keep my hard-earned money in my pocket, or the pocket of another private citizen who's just trying to make a living. Screw the petroleum industry and the government committees bound and determined to keep me and my car in a constant state of near-poverty. Believe me, if I wanted to bow down to them, I would have a pathetic electric vehicle (note I didn't say "car") in my garage instead of one of the last true muscle cars available to us average citizens. If you own a car that is outside the box of average thinking, you should exercise your reasoning to the same level. Sheep owned Yugos, and I will never be comfortable with being termed a sheep. The facts are out there, just be willing to learn them and live by your own rules, not the "suggestions" of those who don't give a crap about you or your car but the thickness of your wallet.
Stepping off soapbox...damn I need a beer now.

 

[Grey01]

Tom, say what you really think! Don't hold back!

Can't you get around those irritating disposal fees by digging a hole in your back yard and pouring the old oil in? Works out here in the country in Alabamy!
Shouldn't bother your conscience since you got the red *** against California and the Government anyway!

Just Kidding. Have a nice day!

 

[brednova]

It only amazes you because you don't have a clue as to oil properties and are basing your OPINION on what the oil companies tell you.

Have you ever ONCE had your oil analyzed?????? The guy who let it go 35k going to a lube shop was not running synthetic I'd bet, and definitely didn't get it analyzed. There's a HUGE difference between some idiot who doesn't know he's supposed to change his oil, and an enthusiast running a high performance oil.

If you change synthetic oil every 2500, more power to you...you're just wasting your time and money. I get my oil analyzed every 10k and it comes back fine.

So please, while you're welcome to your OPINION, stick to FACTS - of which you have ZERO. *GOOD* synthetics (Amsoil, Mobil1, RedLine, Royal Purple) can easily exceed 3,000 miles. I suppose my friend with 93k on his Excusrion's oil with testing done by an INDEPENDENT LAB is just a myth???? Results finally came back "oil cannot provide adequate protection and should be changed".....

You probably think that only a Ford technician can work on your car because that is what the dealer told you

I am asuming that having your oil analyzed is not free. I think I would rather spend the $30-50 bucks every 3 months and have my oil changed. I could give a damn about some syntec or some oil analyzing. Change that sh** every 3000 or 3 months!!!!!!! If it is wating money it is worth its weight in peace of mind.

 

[dhjones]

I am asuming that having your oil analyzed is not free. I think I would rather spend the $30-50 bucks every 3 months and have my oil changed. I could give a damn about some syntec or some oil analyzing. Change that sh** every 3000 or 3 months!!!!!!! If it is wating money it is worth its weight in peace of mind.

If 3000 miles floats your boat by all means go for it. Its your car, your money, your choice. Change your sh** whenever you want.

 

[snkypete]

Snkypete,

Thanks for the reply.

I'll try one more time to bring a little of the real world into this thread.

First, a lot of car owners, including Mustang owners, have their oil changed at various businesses (dealers, oil express places, etc). They do this for various reasons; don't have the time or the inclination to do it themselves, aren't mechhanically inclined, don't want to be exposed to the carscinogins (sp) in used oil, etc. This relatively large group of peple aren't going to go the long duration, oil analysis route for the above reasons.

I guess it all depends on the people you are talking about. Most people I know would never go to an oil change facility...I guess it depends on who you are as a person. However I would guess that most that have commented on this thread change their own oil - part of owning a vehicle for ME is the enjoyment of working on it.

Second, we have shown that the cost of a couple of analyses and two oil changes per year is pretty close in cost: >$40 for analysis-[you didn't include the shipping costs] versus $50.00 for the oil changes. So savings in cost is not going to be a big decision factor for most people.

Actually your math is wrong. One more time... Assuming $5/qt for Mobil1 x5qt is $25 per change every 3000 miles. That would be three oil changes for a 10000 period or $75. Whereas with an analysis every 10k, it would be $20. I didn't include shipping but if you'd feel better we can tack on the $.70 or so to ship back the vial. However personally it is not $25 to change my oil - I have a 7qt pan - 8 including filter and Amsoil is not $5 a qt....dealer cost is $6-7/qt...so let's say $6. So that's $48 per change, or $144 for the same 10k mile period. I'd say $124 is not something I would necessarily throw away if it there was nothing wrong with it. Again, do you change your brake pads every 3k regardless if they need it or not?

Third, the number of politically correct environmentalists who will go long oil changes to save the world's oil is regrettably probably quite small.

I could care less about environmentalists personally But it is is nice to know I am 'doing my part'.

Fourth, the large number of people on this topic who have indicated they feel better when they change oil frequently -rightly or wrongly - shows you are not pushing a popular agenda which seems to be to educate the masses as to the error of their ways.

I am not pushing any 'agenda'. Because more people think a certain way doesn't make it right - it makes them uneducated.

No offense, but all of the above should convince you that when you push your views on long duration oil changes to the extreme, you come across as anal retentive and self centered. I respectfully would suggest that you try to understand more about how the imperfect real world works and put less emphasis on how much you know. Just my thoughts.

Again, I'm not pushing any 'view', I am stating facts. For the record I am extremely anal retentive - and proud of it....I'll take being AR over being someone who does something half assed anyday. Self-centered? Not really, I just happen to be right. If you choose to live in your imperfect world - more power to you - just another reason why this board and the Korral are honestly a joke in the mustang world when it comes to real tech - it's full of kids who don't have a clue but think they know everything....hey, we all had to learn somewhere but it is why places like ModularFords.Com and ModularDepot.Com have been so successful....and anytime someone with any REAL knowledge tries to assist here they get shot down by people who cannot show one shred of evidence or fact to back up their ridiculous comments.

Because 'the masses' choose to change their oil at 3k because it makes them 'feel better' doesn't mean the oil is bad - it means they choose to change it. And I will take being right over being politically correct anyday, sorry if that offends you. I don't claim to know everything, but I don't talk out of my a$$ when I don't know something like others do - I only comment on things I am informed about - others should try it. You will never see me comment about differences between models of superchargers because I am not informed about them (other than all cent. sc's are inferior to turbos).

I suppose that because 'the masses' put a 315 drag radial on a 9" rim that makes it ok too?

If it were a matter of OPINION, that's fine...people can do whatever they want and if they are more comfortable throwing out their oil at 3k then fine. However the statement that synthetic oil is "bad" after 3-5k is not correct and if you don't like the fact that I will correct misinformation then I suggest you find a way to live with it because I always will. There is still such a thing as right and wrong.

 

[snkypete]

I am asuming that having your oil analyzed is not free. I think I would rather spend the $30-50 bucks every 3 months and have my oil changed. I could give a damn about some syntec or some oil analyzing. Change that sh** every 3000 or 3 months!!!!!!! If it is wating money it is worth its weight in peace of mind.

If you actually bothered to read my post I addressed the cost of getting oil analyzed - I even showed the variance between analysis and changing - I just did it again.

If you would rather spend the $30-50 every three months, more power to you....that's great if you don't want to get your oil analyzed.

However the fact still remains that synthetic oil is not garbage after 3-5k miles and there is no reason to throw it out.

I'm curious how you have the time to change your oil, but not time to take a sample considering it takes less time? But there I go with facts again. Taking a sample and sending it off is not a difficult task.

While you are entitled to your opinion that it's worth it to you in peace of mind - it is just that, your opinon - not a fact. No one cares about anyones opinions...we all have them. To ME, I get a lot more peace of mind having the oil analyzed to see what is going on inside of my motor. Changing your oil doesn't do $hit to tell you that you have a problem....getting your oil analyzed WILL tell you if you're having a bearing failure, turbo failure, ring failure, etc.

Seems THAT is more important than anything else.

So have fun changing your oil in a futile manner - for those that actually understand oil properties and aren't brainwashed, there are alternatives.

Have a nice day.