Brakes The Ultimate 4-lug/5-lug Brake Conversion/upgrade Thread

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by Mustang5L5, Nov 28, 2009.

  1. Mustang5L5

    Mustang5L5 Car used in adult film "Highway Gangbang-InDaButt"
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    Starting this thread with the hopes of reducing the number of 5-lug or general brake upgrade threads that have been appearing on the forums since most of the major brake conversion sites have gone down.

    This thread will be strictly informational, and any off-topic banter or user specific questions will be deleted/edited at discretion of mods. I don't want this to turn into a 21-page thread where someone can't find the info they need.

    WHat I need are people who are knowledgeable in specific conversions to write up threads detailing the parts they used and such. FOr example, someone who has done the simple SVO rotor lincoln 5-lug and ranger drum setup may want to list what parts they used for their conversion and any other details on the swap. I realize there is more than 1 way to skin a cat, so we might have a few different ideas on one specific swap.

    I'll edit this post into an Index once info starts being written up, but lets keep this thread clean and free of post which may start to clutter it up. Thanks

    :nice:
     
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  2. Shaolin Crane

    Shaolin Crane Banned

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    Alright i guess i'll start one
    First off there are many way to do this, i did this the expensive way
    Parts Required
    94-95 or 96-98 SN95 Spindles (junk yard $75 a pair)
    Cobra Twin Piston PBR Calipers (price varies but i payed 45 each)
    MM/Stop tech SS brake lines (check mm website)
    13" Parts Master Brand Brake rotors ($32-$48 each)
    MM bumpsteer kit (check mm website)
    95 SN95 Rear Axle (craigs list 150-600 depending if you can get one with brakes already)
    95 Sn95 rear caliper (cobra or GT dont matter they are all the same size $28-$45 dollars)
    MM/stoptech rear SS brake lines (check MM website)
    95 cobra r master cylinder (new $150)
    95 cobra r booster (new $175 reman $85)
    Willwood Proportioning valve ($45)
    MM 3-2 Port conversion ($35)
    Any set of 5 lug rims your heart desires
    Typical sizes that fit are 255 for the front and 275 for the rear
    now that the parts are out of the way here are the tips

    Brake Booster needs to be "fitted" to the car, this involves cutting the lower left hole of the firewall about a 1/2" larger downward and possible massaging of the shock tower

    Rear axle, its important for the easiest swap that you locate and axle that has a similar brake line setup as the fox, the SN's had 2 type, one with soft lines at either side of the vehicle, and one with a single soft line in the center and a hardline that run across to both calipers, im not saying the first one wont work but its alot more work as the other is a straight bolt up

    E brake cables, there is a possibility that you can re use your factory e brake cables by relocating the brackets so they dont make contact with the wheels, what i did was buy some steel zip ties and attach the brake cable to the calipers and zip tie the loose part of the cable to the lower control arms, then relocate the bracket by drilling 2 holes one for the screw and one for the retaining fold (you'll see what i mean when you get down there) if you go this route you do not need to modify your e brake cable, now this isnt guaranteed to work(worked on my 88 but not my 87)

    Now those are the parts and tips i can divulge from doing it myself everything else is basic mechanical knowledge as far as putting everything on the car, just like a brake job, take fox **** off, put SN **** on, its that simple, well it is for me
     
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  3. 92NOTCHJONZY2

    92NOTCHJONZY2 New Member

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    latemodelrestoration has kit for 399.99 check it out
     
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  4. Mustang5L5

    Mustang5L5 Car used in adult film "Highway Gangbang-InDaButt"
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    4-cylinder to V8 brake upgrade.


    Basically to upgrade an 87-93 4-banger Mustang to 87+ V8 specs, these are the parts you'll need. Pre-87 V8's will be similar, but may have slight differences.

    87+ Brake booster
    87+ V8 spindles
    11" rotors
    87+ 60mm Brake calipers and brake lines.

    No need to swap the MC as both the 2.3L and 5.0 share the same 21mm master cylinder. Basically unbolt it from the booster, pull it forward and swap the booster to the V8 unit.

    As for the PV, you shouldn't need to change anything since you are adding more power to the front brakes.

    In the wheel wells, swap out the spindles, rotors, calipers and bolt the new brake lines to the body hard lines. You may find that with the 4-banger struts, there is a gap when you try to bolt the strut to the spindle. The solution is either to use spacers or washer to close up the gap, or to run 87-93 V8 struts.

    Bleed the brakes, and you should have working brakes.

    NOTE: A popular upgrade is to swap SVO 73mm calipers onto the stock fox Mustang. While easy to do, this requires a MC upgrade since the calipers require more fluid volume. The next step up for MC to use is the 94-95 Cobra 15/16" MC (24.5MM bore). At this point, for the amount of work involved, there are better alternatives to go with.
     
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  5. Mustang5L5

    Mustang5L5 Car used in adult film "Highway Gangbang-InDaButt"
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    5lugs...the cheap easy way.

    Late model resto sells a kit for $400 to convert the basic 4-lug Fox into 5-lugs. Basically the kit uses OEM Ford components...in one easy kit with lube and misc items.


    Basically, the requirements are as follows

    Front (w/11" rotors): For the 87-93 V8 Mustang... 84-86 SVO or 84-92 Mark 7 front 11" rotors (either with or without ABS...doesn't matter)

    Front (w/10" rotors): For the 79-86 and 87-93 4cyl cars, use the 83-92 4cyl Ranger front rotors

    Optionally you can elect to replace the bearings at this time, or reuse the ones in your 4-lug rotors. Most often, they will directly swap over.

    Rear: (All 4-lug drum rears) '83-'92 Ranger/Bronco II Left (driver) side axle (29-5/32") from a 4cyl or 3.0L V-6 with the 7.5" rear end, or '86-'97 Aerostar RIGHT side axles (29-5/32") is what you want. The 9" drums are off the 7.5" equipped ranger or aerostar.


    Simple swap the axles and drums, and you are good to go.

    Pros: Keeps stock fox offset up front and in the rear. Doesn't change a thing other than add a 5th lug. Cheap, Easy

    Cons: Limited wheel selection. Front hub is the issue

    List of the OEM Sn95 wheels that fit the front rotors without modification

    94-96 16" Pony Wheels
    94-95 17" GT wheels
    94-97 Cobra 17" Wheels
    1995 Cobra R wheels (OEM)
    V6 Mustang wheels

    Other SN95 wheels will bolt up, but you won't be able to run the center caps.
     
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  6. NIKwoaC

    NIKwoaC 中國製造

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    4 Eye SN-95 Cobra Brake Conversion (as performed on my ’86)

    79 TO 86 GUYS, THIS ONE IS FOR YOU!

    Parts required-

    Front:
    >94-95 Mustang spindles and hub assemblies (either ABS or regular will work)
    >SN-95 ball joints, or a stack of washers to compensate for the long thread section on Fox ball joints *(1)
    >13” SN-95 front Cobra brake rotors
    >SN-95 rear Cobra calipers, loaded *(2)
    >Left/right front brake soft lines for Cobra calipers
    >Adapter for passenger side soft to hard brake line *(3)

    Rear:
    >Fox length 5-lug axles, I used 28 spline Yukon (these are disc brake specific and are hub-centric)
    >NRC caliper brackets *(4)
    >SN-95 rear Cobra calipers, loaded *(2)
    >11.65" rear Cobra brake rotors
    >94-95 Mustang rear soft brake lines *(5)
    >Hard line to soft line adapter *(3)
    >NRC emergency brake cables

    Under hood:
    >94-95 V6 brake booster *(6)
    >85 Lincoln Towncar master cylinder *(7)
    >Adapters and hard lines for master cylinder *(3)
    >Adjustable brake proportioning valve *(8)
    >Stock proportioning valve plug *(8)

    Keep in mind that miscellaneous bolts and nuts, like every project, will need replaced or modified as you see fit. Don't use cheap stuff on your brake system, I like to use Grade-8.

    Notes:

    *(1) Fox ball joints can be reused but have a taller boss that will need to be compensated for with a stack of washers about .250-.375 inch thick so the nut can provide clamping force on the spindle. Get the smallest outer diameter washers you can for clearance with the bottom of the strut. The inner diameter needs to be about 5/8".

    *(2) "Loaded" means complete with pads, caliper bracket, pins, etc. Make sure you get the correct banjo bolts that connect the soft lines to the caliper, as some new calipers do not come with new banjo bolts, and these are surprisingly hard to find. I had to buy a set off of discbrakesrus.com. Notice that banjo bolt threads changed over the years so make SURE you have the right set for your calipers.

    *(3) I found that the "one size fits all" brake adapters that they sell on various websites often do NOT work for a specific application. Don't buy these blind, take your brake lines into the auto parts store and test fit to find the right adapters for you. With that said, having custom brake lines made at a GOOD brake service station is your best bet over just buying adapters for everything. Cutting, bending, and flaring is better off left to someone who is good at it and gets paid to do it, and most reputable places will do it very cheaply -if not free- so long as you supply the parts and know exactly how the lines need to be shaped.

    *(4) Rear NRC (North Race Cars) brackets are very good quality, however you may want to find a set of OE Ford "anti-moan" braces to avoid the inevitable rear brake moan, though these are not needed.

    *(5) 94-95 Rear soft lines have a built-in bracket that you can use to mount to your axle with a self-tapping screw.

    *(6) You need a larger booster when you use a larger master cylinder to compensate for the bigger brakes. Many different boosters can be used, but find the smallest you possibly can (almost anything is larger than the stock Fox booster), because strut-tower clearance is VERY tight. I found that 4-eye cars have less clearance than aero cars, and the strut tower will need EXTREME clearancing to fit the bigger booster. This was probably the most difficult part of the swap. The mounting holes in the firewall will also need elongated to fit the newer booster. I've heard of people cutting and welding the 4-eye strut tower to fit the booster; I used a hammer to "massage" both the booster and strut tower in my car, and so far I've had no problems with brake assist.

    *(7) The 4-eye cars use an SAE thread, double line-style master cylinder. The large-bore '85 Towncar MC is supposed to be the best fit for this style brake swap. Keep in mind that you will likely have to make custom lines to fit between the MC and factory proportioning valve, as there are a few different SAE threads at all the junctions.

    *(8) Once the swap is complete, you'll need an adjustable proportioning valve (installed in the brake-line junction on the passenger side firewall) to play with the brake bias between the front and rear wheels. To gut and plug the factory proportioning valve, you can buy one of the specific plugs from FRPP, or you can modify the original cap to act like a plug. I drilled, tapped, and used a screw and nut with brass washers to seal the hole in the original cap because I'm a cheap ass. I've had no leaks so far, but I wouldn't recommend this method to more novice fabricators, because safety is definitely at risk. I'll probably "upgrade" to a real plug in the future, but I thought this was worth mentioning.

    *** I'll update this post with more information and pictures in the future. If anyone has any questions or comments, please feel free to PM me. Please also feel free to correct me if I've forgotten anything. ***
     
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  7. Mustang5L5

    Mustang5L5 Car used in adult film "Highway Gangbang-InDaButt"
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    Booster selection

    Just wanted to post some info i've learned as a reference to others to answer the eternal question..."What Booster do I use?" and "Do i need a booster?"

    First off, i offer this not as telling you what to use, but info for you to make your own educated decision...so please use at your own risk.

    With that said? When should you use a different booster??

    Easy answer is to simply look at what Ford did. When they put rear disks on the back of the Cobra, they upgraded the booster. All the vac boosted SN95's use a larger booster as well...so someone at Ford has determined a safe passenger car should use the upgraded booster. If you are running SN95 brakes all around, why not run the SN95 booster as well? Even Turbo Coupe rear disks are basically 1993 cobra brakes, and those got an upgraded booster as well.

    Options?? Either the 1993 Cobra Booster, or the 1994-1995 Sn95 booster. They are ALL 205mm tandem boosters, the main difference is the 1993 cobra booster uses the fox firewall bolt pattern and thread while the SN95 booster has a lug moved slightly and metric bolts. If you are buying new, get the 1993 Cobra booster. If you look used, you can get 94-95 V6 boosters dirt cheap. Just be aware that you are using 14-year old used parts. If the MC was leaking at any point, there may be a good chance the booster is bad. The differences between SN95 v6, GT, and Cobra are negligible, so don't sweat using a V6 booster at all. For installation techniques, search the forums.

    If you decide to retain the stock fox booster for whatever reason, at least make sure you are running the 87-93 Booster. To compensate for the lack of assist, you will want to run a slightly smaller bore MC as well. (more on that later).

    Another option is to convert to Hydroboost like the 96+ V8 modular cars. It offers more assist than a vac booster, so you can run a slightly larger bore MC to compensate.
     
    #7
  8. Mustang5L5

    Mustang5L5 Car used in adult film "Highway Gangbang-InDaButt"
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    Master Cylinder selection

    This one is a little tougher to answer. I strongly suggest you research heavily before deciding on your MC. But more often than not, if you change your calipers to another set of calipers off another car...you need a new MC.


    Brake hydraulics work similarly to the principles of leverage. You have the Master Cylinder, and the Slave Cylinders. The ratio between the two determines pedal effort. Easiest way to explain why you need to change your MC is to think of a lever. Say you have a fulcrum, a long lever and 500 pounds. We all learned in 1st grade the closer you move the fulcrum to the weight, the easier it is to lift the weight. This is equivalent to a smaller bore MC. The smaller the MC bore, the easier it is to operate the brakes (softer the pedal). Of course, a side effect is that now your lever is longer. The closer you move the fulcrum to the weight, the longer your stroke is to lift the weight. There will be a point where you simply cannont reach the lever, so you are unable to lift it. This is equivalent to decreasing the bore size of the MC so much that you can't operate the actual brake to MAX braking effort. The key here is to find a bore size that is small enough to reduce the work effort, but big enough that it will allow the brake to work to max potention? Understand? Good...now the details.


    What MC's are available? Here's the short and sweet info list

    http://1985mustanggt.com/Reference/2009-09-19_Mustang_MC_Info.pdf

    You will also need a 3-2 conversion if you are using an 87+ Mustang as a chassis as well as needing to modify the combination valve by removing the proportioning plug. This is covered elsewhere in this thread


    Final number is the bore area in millimeters squared. SO you have 6 choices...somewhere in there is the MC you want to use.

    Now, the list of the calipers and their piston area sizes.


    Top number is the area of each individual piston. Bottom number is all the pistons added up x 2 calipers. So simply add the bottom number from a set of front calipers, to the bottom number to a set of rear calipers and that is your total slave piston area in MM. Now divide that by the area of the master cylinder in MM^2 and you get your ratio.

    The higher the ratio (17:1, 18:1, etc), the softer your pedal will be. The lower the ratio (11:1, 12:1) the harder the pedal will be. Now, if you elect to retain the stock Fox booster, you'll want a higher ratio number to compensate for the lact of assist. If you are lucky enough to run hydroboost, you can find that the extra assist allows you to use a ratio in the lower end of the range. Typically most of the factory setups fall in the 13:1 - 17:1 range (4-wheel disk). Again, i stress to research what other people are using and use this formula simply as a guide.


    A lot of guys choose to simply upgrade the front brakes only, and run 5-lug drums. Which MC should they use? Well, compare the piston area sizes of the calipers you choose with those of the stock 60mm calipers, which offers a total area of 5654mm^2. If you increase the caliper size, you increase the piston area which in turn lowers the ratio since the MC has not changed. As a result, your pedal will be softer.

    99-04 GT Front : 44.5mm pistons
    -6220mm^2 x2 calipers

    87-93 60mm calipers
    -5654mm^2 x 2 calipers

    99-04 COBRA 40.5mm pistons
    -5152mm^2 x2 calipers

    Depending on which direction you go, your pedal will be slightly harder or softer. In the above example, going with the 99=04 GT front calipers will make your pedal slightly softer due to the increase in piston area. While going with the 99-04 Cobra calipers will result in a slightly harder pedal due to the decrease in piston area. In this example, one may consider to compensate for the slightly harder pedal, by upgrading to a 1993 Cobra/94-95 SN95 booster.

    Another common modification is to add 73mm calipers to a stock brake setup. Here you can see why this is bad.

    87-93 60mm calipers
    -5654mm^2 x 2 calipers

    SVO calipers: 73mm piston
    -8370mm^2 x2 calipers

    As you can see, the caliper piston area is dramatically increased and will result in a solfter brake pedal. The danger here goes back to the lever example. Make the lever longer, and it will soon reach a point where you can't reach it because the stroke is so long. Same here. Since the caliper area increased, it makes the MC bore appear mathematically smaller when you calculate out the ratio. As a result, you run the risk of running out of brake travel to properly operate the pedal. In this situation, you may want to consider upsizing to one of the MC's listed above.

    Hopefully this eductated you a bit on MC's and allows you to select the right one for your application


    ALso, the brake pedal ration in the Fox cars is 3.5:1 in vacuum boosted operations. I beleive this to be true of 1987+ Mustangs. If converting to manual brakes, one needs to take into account the pedal ratio. Some kits out there modify the brake pedal ratio to compensate for the lack of assist. I suggest you research this as well as I beleive most of the manual brake kits out there make use of the 7/8" MC listed above as well as a different brake pedal ratio....just a heads up.


    DISCLAIMER: The info provided is to the best of my knowlegde factual and accurate, but i make no garantees. Any info posted here is simply a guide for you to make an educated decision on your own. I claim no responsibility if you don't research properly and take your car up to 100MPH before testing the brakes out. Use at your own risk.
     
    #8
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  9. FIRST FOX

    FIRST FOX New Member

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    Contact Moser Engineering. They can plug weld and drill your existing rotors and axles to 5 lug. I think they even install new wheel studs in the axles. Going this route, you know they will work with your current brakes, wheels, etc. Not sure on the cost.
     
    #9
  10. MH-47gMECHANIC

    MH-47gMECHANIC New Member

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    4 LUG REAR DISC SETUP

    :shrug:looking for info and part for a 4 lug rear disc setup, it will be awhile until i can upgrade my brakes to 5 lug and disc all the way around not to mention the cost of adding 5 lug wheels, then the price of tires.. and right now i dont have that kinda cash..

    so is there a rear disc setup that will go along with my 4 lug stock axle?:shrug:
     
    #10
  11. NIKwoaC

    NIKwoaC 中國製造

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    The answer is yes, but it would be a complete waste of money if you're planning on going 5 lug in the future, as none of the 4 lug parts could be reused with the 5 lug parts.

    These posts will probably be deleted from this thread as per the first post, so I'm going to PM this message to you as well.
     
    #11
  12. Mustang5L5

    Mustang5L5 Car used in adult film "Highway Gangbang-InDaButt"
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    To indirectly answer his question. The only OEM way to retain rear disk brakes is with the 87-88 Turbo Coupe/1993 Cobra rear 4-lug brake setup.

    There are a few options with this, and it can be modified for 5-lug setup with a few changes.

    Anyone with experience care to write up a TC rear brake upgrade?
     
    #12
  13. Adams91LX

    Adams91LX Active Member

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    It wasn't terrible... actually pretty easy. i had the entire rear end.
    3-2 prop valve gutting and plugging
    adjustable prop valve
    88 TC rear end, with rotors and calipers.
    bought 93 cobra pads, bent my own brake lines, i also upped the front calipers to 73mm, so i upgraded the MC to 97V6. I might change this as the pedal feel was a little soft for my taste.
    bought the e-brake cables, modded the ebrake, cut spring and had it welded together.

    I will be going 5 lug.. 95 axles, and breeze automotive rotors Breeze Automotive Factory Five Racing are all it takes to convert the rears. The fronts are just straight forward 95 spindles, rotors, calipers, brake soft line...



    Here is what i used... from jrichker:
     
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  14. Jawbone

    Jawbone New Member

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    drakkhen 20 from MotorsportMustangs gave me this site. The best article I've found on the 5 lug conversion. The article originally came from StangNet but I can't get the web page to work. Go to MotorSportMustangs, look under "How To's and Info Resources", my thread is titled parts needed from a /95 Mustang to do a 4-5 lug conversion, check out the web address.

    Jawbone
     
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  15. bonestock94

    bonestock94 New Member

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    Camber concerns

    Ok guys, so my project car is a 1992 that is really low already. It doesn't have C/C plates and the wheels are clearly showing significant negative camber. Is this problem going to get significantly worse when I put in my 94-95 spindles? I'm putting on C/C plates before I start driving it regularly, but will I be able to at least move it around before I get them?
     
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  16. bcmbcmbcm

    bcmbcmbcm Member

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    about to do 4 Lug rear disc under stock 10 holes

    I am trying to keep the stock appearance of my car and want rear disks and am about to convert using essentially:

    North Racecars brackets (allow 1993 Cobra/TC parts with stock 5.0 axles...keeps offset where it should be)

    http://www.northracecars.com/brackets.jpg

    Stock 1993 Cobra parts (either Raybestos or Ford, I have the part #s at home)
    Booster (Raybestos)
    Master Cylinder (Raybestos)
    Emergency brake cables (Raybestos)
    Calipers (Cardone Reman Ford units)
    Pads (Ford)
    Rotors (New Ford, now obsolete. I just had them cryo treated as well :)
    Rear brake lines (Ford, used)

    Thats it for the bolt is stuff. Don't forget you will need a proportioning valve:

    I will be using a wilwood BPV-1
    and to use a 1993 Cobra MC in a regular Fox you will need a Master Cylinder adapter kit, I will be using Maximum MotorSports MMBAK-3

    and the emergency brake handle needs to be modified. I forget how. I bought a NOS one and sent it to someone on eBay and for $25 he modified the handle. I don't know exactly what needs to be done...but I know it is important.
     
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  17. 5.0W/5.0

    5.0W/5.0 New Member

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    So....Is 96 Saleen spindles, hubs, rotors, PBR calipers for $150 a good deal? I went to pick up the 95 set up I was talking about in another thread, but they only had one side. So, they asked me if I wanted to go with a 96 set up. I heard the 96 set up is about 1/2 inch wider, and requires you to roll your fenders. I thought about it for a bit, and went ahead and got them, not knowing it was the Cobra set up.

    Good thing is, I didnt even have to take them off myself, and when I came back, I noticed they were the PBR calipers. My next question, I noticed that most threads show the peices going on seperately, but they pulled everything off in one peice. Will they go on in one peice???
     
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  18. bonestock94

    bonestock94 New Member

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    It will go on in one piece, it's kind of a drag trying to get the heavy assembly on without damaging the lower ball joint but it's not a big deal.
     
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  19. 5.0W/5.0

    5.0W/5.0 New Member

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    Thanks. Did you ever find out about the camber concerns you posted about? Mine is super low as well.
     
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  20. bonestock94

    bonestock94 New Member

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    No, I ended up just buying Maximum Motorsports CC plates and Steeda x2 balljoints to hopefully fully address the issue.
     
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