Thoughts on the new CPP front suspension?

Discussion in 'Classic Mustang Specific Tech' started by bnickel, Sep 12, 2007.


  1. Rusty67

    Rusty67 Well-Known Member

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    I'm runing manual steering right now. I am waiting for an integral power steering box before I switch back to PS. Once I get that I'll also go with a hydrobooster for my brakes.
     
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  2. bnickel

    bnickel Founding Member

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    hey Rusty, have you seen the new Borgeson integral power steering box yet? looks like a sweet box!!!!!! i'm seriously considering selling my TCP rack to get one of these new boxes.
     
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  3. Rusty67

    Rusty67 Well-Known Member

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    I saw it posted. The post got deleted. This looks exactly like what CPP said they were working on. What was the price on the Borgenson unit ? 500+ ? Any feedback from someone who has had one ?
     
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  4. bnickel

    bnickel Founding Member

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    i think there's still a link to it somewhere or there was just yesterday anyway. it's so new i don't know of anyone who has installed one yet. the price isn't bad at all really, especially when you consider that a new flaming river manual box is almost as much money.
     
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  5. fastaggie

    fastaggie New Member

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    Well, thanks a lot guys. You bring this back from the dead and I can't fight it off this time. I ordered the kit with uppers and lowers today. Now I've got to figure out how to explain to my very understanding wife (until now) why my car wasn't finished after all. I think this is a significant safety upgrade, don't you. Thanks, again. I'll let you know how the install goes.
     
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  6. speed1972

    speed1972 Founding Member

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    haha... fast aggie, too funny. I hope your wife understands and is concerned with your safety.

    I am trying to consider my options for my coupe because it is still virgin but my fastback already has a MII under it but I don't trust the current setup, OEM Ford, so I am going to upgrade to the Heidt's system. I would go that route on the coupe too but am looking for a cheaper option that incorporates the ability to add a reliable, great functioning power steering system.

    LB
     
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  7. Steve69

    Steve69 Member

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    I just order the lower control arms from CPP for my 69 Stang. Im having a hell of time getting the strut rod supports out. Any tips on taking them out?
    I drilled the welded holes and ground down the welds. The still aren't moving.
    Im thinking of cuting them out and griding them down. Bnickel do you have the link on the power steering Box? I was debating on a rack or box.

    Thanks
    Steve69
     
    #127
  8. Rusty67

    Rusty67 Well-Known Member

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    Wire brush the top and see if you missed a spot weld ?
     
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  9. bnickel

    bnickel Founding Member

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  10. fastaggie

    fastaggie New Member

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    Just heard back from CPP. Ships today and should have it by Tuesday. Looking forward to receiving it and getting started. Lots to do. I'm installing this along with Mustang Steve's Cobra brake conversion, a new R model front valence, a rear seat delete, battery to trunk and possibly a new sound system. ( I just thought it was finished).
     
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  11. speed1972

    speed1972 Founding Member

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    I think I'm going to give this system a go on my coupe just from the cost aspect of it alone! Course it will have to wait til after I get home from my deployment so it'll be december time frame. I like the Borgeson pump but for that kind of cost, I'd prefer to upgrade to a fox body rack.

    Has anyone considered/tried putting a newer style mustang rack under there with this system. I think it would only requre a single tube crossmember to hold it. Am I thinking crazy here?

    LB
     
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  12. bnickel

    bnickel Founding Member

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    all factory mustang racks from the mustang II until now are all front steer, the early mustangs are all rear steer so if you were to put a mustang rack in an early mustang your steering would be backwards, IE; if you turn the wheel to the left the car would turn right and vice-versa. there is a kit made by AJE that uses a special tube "K-member" and a fox body or SN-95 rack, struts and spindles/brakes and converts the early mustang to a front steer car but it costs about $2 grand or so.
     
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  13. Rusty67

    Rusty67 Well-Known Member

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    And then you have a strut front end, who the hell wants that ?
     
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  14. speed1972

    speed1972 Founding Member

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    I guess it depends on what you are going for. Too bad they don't make a spindle that is bolt in to use the stock style suspension with the newer mustang rack. Personally, I'd be willing to give a little in the turning radius to have that rack. Growing up on the fox body mustangs, I prefer that steering setup over the old stuff..... makes me rethink the whole CPP suspension.
     
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  15. bnickel

    bnickel Founding Member

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    personally i don't like the steering feedback from front steer cars, especially one with rack and pinion, i can't feel when i'm at the limit with them but then i grew up with the early cars too so i guess it's all in what you're used to but i wouldn't consider a strut front suspension for anything but a drag car, for the street and corner carving the double A-arm or SLA is the best way to go......period, no if's, and's or but's......
     
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  16. speed1972

    speed1972 Founding Member

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    No arguments from me on the suspension type. The strut type suspension is great cheap setup from an economical stand point but will never function properly when pushed at all.

    LB
     
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  17. Helmantel

    Helmantel New Member

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    These Wilwood spindles can be used for both front and rear steer. Dimensionally, they're quite close to stock spindles, except for the steering arms (which are shorter and mount much higher). I doubt you can make it work properly with a front steer Fox rack though. To get a proper geometry, the rack will propably sit too high and will interfere with the engine and/or the frame rails. Maybe it works with a late model oil pan, but I doubt it.

    Besides, those racks are 24.5" wide which is a few inches wider than they should be to end up with tie rods that have the same lenght as the LCA's.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. speed1972

    speed1972 Founding Member

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    Those only work with the mustang II, so they wouldn't work with the stock suspension.

    LB
     
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  19. Helmantel

    Helmantel New Member

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    They're intended for Mustang II suspensions, but the geometry is quite close to 65-73 spindles, except for the steering arms, which can be flipped for front and rear steer. The ball joint tapers are the same and the bearings are the 70 and later type.

    Here are the differences:

    • spindle pin .8" higher (measured from LBJ)
    • about 3/8" shorter
    • 11 deg KPI vs 7.8 deg stock
    • pin moved about 1/4" inward, relative to LBJ (a bit more tire clearance)
    • about .7" scrub radius reduction, due to the two changes above
    • Steering arm is 4.89" (vs. 6.75-7.125" for 67-73 and 65-66 respectively)
    • Steering arm sits way too high (2.6")

    With different steering arms, they could probably be used on 65-73 Mustangs. Of course, different steering arms are not available, and considering their task, not something you make out of piece of scrap steel you found under the work bench.
     
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  20. 69gmachine

    69gmachine Member

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    Helmantel,

    The bolt on steering arms allow them to be used as either LH or RH, but do NOT make it rear steer. The built in ackerman geometry is unique to front steer applications, and they are way too high for our cars as you noted.

    I am designing an entire SLA suspension around the 2" drop ProSpindle using an unmodified J car rack. Everything is being designed in 3D SolidWorks. I have a short rear steer arm designed to work with the short throw of a rack as well as the necessary caliper and rotor brackets to make the whole package work.

    The brakes will use 12.125x1.25", 8 bolt on 7" shelf stock rotors commonly used in asphalt circle track racing (although I intend to offer upgrades in the future using 12.75 and/or 13" rotors and hi zoot calipers). I've already done a trial fit with '94-'04 17x9" wheels and they will clear the steering knuckle, control arms and calipers without spacers (don't know how well it will clear the fender yet though). As you mentioned, the scrub radius is very low when using the aforementioned late model wheels. The caliper and suspension will also clear most 16" wheels, although the offset in the vintage type wheels with a stock backspacing will increase the scrub radius somewhat.

    I'm not planning on selling piece parts as the geometry for both the steering and suspension has been designed from the begining to work together and may not be compatible with other designs. All of the wear items such as tie rod ends and bushings will be readily available shelf stock items either available from your local A Zone or from the many circle track supply houses. I expect to have the kits finished by the end of the year, although right now I'm not planning to market them until Jan 2010.

    I've gone way out on a limb financially to turn my designs into reality. I'll either go bankrupt or live the dream. Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but the discussion turned to the Wilwood spindle so I thought I'd jump in.
     
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