Hey I got an '84 GT with the carberated 302 in it. I know where I can get my hands on a 351 Cleveland engine for $400. I'm considering the swap, but would like some feedback to help me on my decision. I'm rebuilding my engine in the spring, so whichever engine I go with will get a rebuild and modded up a bit. Please let me know what you think, 302 vs. 351C in my '84 GT 5-speed, thanks. Btw, I do want to keep my car a stick, so this is another concern...I know most of the 351's were autos...
351C Engine Swap
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Cleveland and 351&400M motors have potential if built right. yea they are heavy but with a little bit of work they are torque monsters. only thing major you would need is headers. you either have them custom made or run the stock car log style cast manifolds. old friend i knew had a 400M in his 86, only thing i know that he did was exhaust mods, dunno if he had to fabricate motor mounts or a tranny Xmember.
that's an old outdated motor that likely won't be compatible which much at all, and will cost you an arm and a leg in the long run.
IMO, grab a roller 94+ 5.8 351 windsor block from a bronco/f150 and go with that, then you'll have the entire aftermarket that you can use on it.
IMO, grab a roller 94+ 5.8 351 windsor block from a bronco/f150 and go with that, then you'll have the entire aftermarket that you can use on it.
The T5 will work with a 351C, but I'd seriously look at an aftermarket box like a TKO, Liberty or Gforce... A healthy 4V Clev will eat stock T5's for lunch.
Hooker and Hedman both make swap headers for a Cleveland in a fox, and the swap oilpan is available from both Canton and Moroso. For motor mounts you can re-use your stochers if they're in good shape.
As for being "outdated", Clevelands are still banned from a lot of racing classes (They embarassed Chevy owners on a regular basis), add a decent cam, aluminum intake and a 750 Holley to a healthy and otherwise stock 351C 4V and you'll have an 7000 RPM + screamer that will chew up most HCI 302 and 351W's out there.
Hooker and Hedman both make swap headers for a Cleveland in a fox, and the swap oilpan is available from both Canton and Moroso. For motor mounts you can re-use your stochers if they're in good shape.
As for being "outdated", Clevelands are still banned from a lot of racing classes (They embarassed Chevy owners on a regular basis), add a decent cam, aluminum intake and a 750 Holley to a healthy and otherwise stock 351C 4V and you'll have an 7000 RPM + screamer that will chew up most HCI 302 and 351W's out there.
Learn more about Clevelands before you give "advice" about them, you just pulled a ryan with that comment.
my one good friend has an 89 hatch that has a 351 cleveland in. He has a set of Yates aluminum heads, and a cam somewhere in the upper .500" lift, i cant remember the intake he had, but it looked like a Victor Junior Style intake. He had a 750 Demon Carb on it and an MSD dist. and 6AL ign. He is running 4.88 gears and he had a toploader in it first, and blew it up. THen the next time at the track, blew the rear. THen he ordered Tremec TKO 3550 and made the car a 5 spd. It hasnt had any problems for about 75 passes at the track, and the motor was not bored, stroked, and absolutely no power adders with full interior and just 90/10 struts. On street slicks he runs 11.30s all day long with that motor, and he shifts it right a 7000rpm. We tore the motor apart about a month ago cause hes now building a 408 stroker, but we wanted to check the internals out and the cylinder walls and everything look spanking new. But ya know how that gets, 11s arent good enough now, so thats why the stroker is goin in. BUt its a very stout engine, and that engine has probably over 75 passes, and TONS of street racing time on it. Just thought i would add some info to this thread cause there isnt many people runnin clevelands out there, and if you still cant find out what you need let me know, cause i will call my buddy and get a list for you! We put that motor in about 4 yrs ago, so i cant remember all we did, but i know we did drop the engine cradle a bit. BUt let me know if you need that list! good luck
Before answering the question as to what would be the better motor, we'd really need to know the ultimate goals for the car, is it a daily driver with occasional track use, or a weekend warrior?And also whether the 351c in question is a 2v or 4v. And fwiw a 2v cleveland is still TOTALLY worth building... How's 412 hp and 424 torque with stock 2v heads, intake, and through a 500cfm holley 2bbl sound? (at the motor mind you)
A 4V Cleveland is a nasty engine....it'll put any equally built Windsor to shame...the problem is price and part availability, not to mention the availability of the engine itself. For those who are knocking Clevelands, you should have a look at a 4V Cleveland head sometime...they're a work of art.
Oh, it was also the engine of choice for the DeTomosa Pantera..
Oh, it was also the engine of choice for the DeTomosa Pantera..
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YEa thats what my buddy with the 408 stroker is doing. He had that 351C in his hatch like i said in my previous reply, but hes doing the 351W block, stroked to a 408, withe his Yates Aluminum Cleveland heads. Its still gonna be carbed, but its a sick setup!
So you're talking about a Clever? LOL, Windsor with Cleveland head...that's an old school setup they used to do before there were Windsor heads that could flow as much as the Clevelands.
It can be said that you can make as much power with the right Windsor setup...sure, but the cool factor is nowhere near as high. If you wanna make power and have a really unique setup, build a Cleveland.
It can be said that you can make as much power with the right Windsor setup...sure, but the cool factor is nowhere near as high. If you wanna make power and have a really unique setup, build a Cleveland.
or stick cleveland heads on a 400M
thats what my old 79 4x4 had and it ran like a raped ape. course i put a nice healthy cam and intake/carb setup on it lol.
thats what my old 79 4x4 had and it ran like a raped ape. course i put a nice healthy cam and intake/carb setup on it lol.Nope, they took the aussie heads away from us, they were open chamber 2v heads, shaved more than anybody ever thought would work. It's a .030 over 351 c, stock block, crank, rods, solid cam (custom grind) stock intake, no port work on the heads, 500 holley 2bbl, going to 1 5/8 headers, non stepped. That particular motor ended up at about 13.7:1 IIRC. I'll be going back with some new headers and even more compression in the next 2-3 weeks if everything works out. You should see the look on the chevy guys when a $3500 ford yanks their $8000 chevy down the straights. Talk about whiners...
As a former owner of a "clevor" or street boss 302 I can tell you it was one heck of a street set up, but lacked big time torque for track runs. I have run many motors over the years and the clevelands are great motors but compared to the windsors they are more expensive.
For me its not worth the trade off not to easily but parts for my car, windsor motors and parts are easy to find and the swap to a 351 windsor is easy.
By the way, my Clevor ran 13.14 at 106 at the track in a 3600lb car, thats with street tires through the exaust, and I had just driven the car 500 miles to the track and got 22 mpg.
For me its not worth the trade off not to easily but parts for my car, windsor motors and parts are easy to find and the swap to a 351 windsor is easy.
By the way, my Clevor ran 13.14 at 106 at the track in a 3600lb car, thats with street tires through the exaust, and I had just driven the car 500 miles to the track and got 22 mpg.
I am running an aus 2V headed cleveland in my 90 fox GT. w/ C4..the cleveland I rebuilt was out of a friends 86 fox and had us 2v heads, custom headers, canton pan, stock engine mounts, performer intake and a 650DP holley. He ran in the 12s with a stock T5 on 15" street tires (bald) and it wa a t-top car with stock suspension. Now Im running about 12:1 compression and a custom grind solid cam..a similar combo just came out of my machine shop and dynoed at over 400 rwhp...I think cleveland is good setup. Parts are becoming more available again from australia...a good 2v setup makes for mean street driver...and uses almost all stock fox stuff for swap..you need headers and rear sump ooil pan kit (canton or moroso and Headman for the exhaust) I say go for it...
Wow.
What kind of pistons? Do they have any special design? And what fuel are you running? I've always understood that the 2v heads are prone to detonation because there is no quench area. I've had thoughts about a custom dome piston that would create a quench effect but I don't know what that would do to compression. With 13.7:1 though I wonder if you have something like that type of piston in there.
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