Engine BAMA Tune Info

[MarineDeuce]

Looking for info on BAMA tunes 13-gt-89s, 13-gt-91s and 13-gt-91r. These came with a BAMA tuner that was in the 2013 Mustang GT 5.0 Premium I bought a few months back. Bama does not want to talk to me about these for reasons unrevealed and I am not a current "lifetime tunes" member. Hoping to find some info on these from people with these tunes who are currently lifetime members. Who might be able to get this info from Bama by simply asking. I run this car at 6,000 feet elevation, stock tune with a 100 hp ZEX nitrous shot with no problems. Bama has offered, for $150, to datalog my setup and tweak it but with a 100 hp already on board seems unlikely they will improve things much and 100 hp is so unmanageable in 1st and 2nd gear on standard tires that it may be an exercise in nuttiness. Still, would like to know what they do.

 

[08GT500]

Hi, Excercise in Futility, maybe- not Nuttiness, lol. Your Elevation is the real kick in the N***. BAMA wont speak to you about those Tunes, as in their Database, the Tuner & it’s Data are the previous Owner’s Property, unless reassigned.
I’m a little confused to as why they said they would Datalog and create a stock Tune for 150$, when is seems if you reassign (which should not cost anything, if it does- 50$) & buy into “Tunes for Life” for 150$..And:
1) You get the Tune you’re seeking, Datalogged...and
2) Unlimited additional Tunes, for as long as you own the Vehicle..
- For close to, or EXACTLY the same price as the (1) Tune..
I’d attached (2) hyperlinks regarding what their goal(s) they seek to accomplish with the (3) Tunes you have now, and the information to buy in to “Tunes for life” below, read the fine Print:
https://support.bamaperformance.com/hc/en-us/articles/201812725-Free-Tunes-for-Life-Program
You’ll likely also have access to the specifics of Data within the Tuner now...
https://www.americanmuscle.com/free-sct-custom-tune.html
If the Car is bone Stock, you should have around a 30 RWHP, 35 Ft/Lb. gain, using the 93 Octane “Race” Tune. There’s nothing really special about the specifics of the 3 Tunes, anyone with a stock 2012 GT would get those same Tune(s).
The only difference(s) that are applied are the Vehicles specific Bolt-on’s, CPU ID# (Tuning Strategy) then a Tune is created. Additionally, you can only request items like Rev limiter RPM, speed limiter removal, Automatic Trans. Shift points/Shift harder, Speedo correction for different Tire Diameters/Gears, elevation offset(s) and the like...
When I create a Tune for a N.A. Gas Motor running NOS, i’ll start by Pulling 2 RPM specific Degrees of Spark Timing per 50 HP of Wet NOS, Richen up the Fuel Map slightly at 500RPM’s prior to, during & up to Rev. limit RPM. Datalog & Tweak as necessary.

Regarding your Altitude, you will run on the Richer side, lose more HP the HIGHER up you go due to less air Density. More HP= Bigger impact. These results may surprise you.....
-At 6,000 ft. elevation air density is (-2.75) psi.
-Each 1,000 ft. of elevation = (-4.5%) reduction in air density.
-6,000 ft. of elevation = 27% reduction in air density.
-A 40 hp 4 Stroke Gasoline Engine loses 7.4 hp at 6000 ft.

-‘A 2013 Mustang GT= 420 HP @ Sea level.
So, the Co-efficiency Formula is: HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000
At 3,000 ft, your power loss is 3,000 x .03 x 420= 37.8 resulting in 420 - 37.8 = 382.2 Hp.
At 6000 ft, your power loss is 6000 x .03 x 420= 75.6 resulting in 420 - 75.6 = 344.4 Hp.
Additionally , that 93 Octane Tune will not yield you 30HP, as you’re Running it at 6,000 Feet.
Friendly Suggestions:
Verify your Fuel System is solid, replace the Filter, better yet- upgrade to a higher output Pump.
I’d use some Bolt-On’s to offset those losses, should not be too hard if the Car is currently BONE Stock. Turbo works, too.
Consider an air/Fuel % Gauge/ Temp Gauge (Pillar Mount) to ensure you don’t go to Sea level one day and lean it out, running a modified Tune. Tires if you’re not planting what you have, if not only for Traction, to slow down & handle the twisters where you are.
Any SCT questions- feel free!
John.

 

[08GT500]

Edit: Drop your Stock Plugs (1) Range colder...

 

[MarineDeuce]

Hey John, thanks for all the info. My theory is this; I'm at 6000 feet in elevation. At this density altitude I am way short on air and long on fuel. Fuel pump is making 58 psi. I have had a number of nitrous outlets tell me I can run a 75 hp shot on a stock tune by closing plug gap to 0.035 all day everyday at sea level with no problems. So, up here my 420 hp coyote is making about 350 hp. With a 75 hp shot I get to 425 at the crank. With a 100 hp shot, which I have done, I am still way below what a 75 would be at sea level, 495, while up here about 450. On a 100 hp shot, at 7500 feet elevation, now more like 430 hp, the car is just unmanagable - instant wheel spin in 1st when nitrous comes on at 2700 rpm followed by near instant redline, shift to 2nd where rpms are in the nitrous window, floor accelerator which activates nitrous and instant wheel spin through 2nd to near instant redline. 3rd is better, with wheel spin stopping about 4500 rpm or so and away we go. So, on street tires, 255 45 19s, nitrous is fun but not fast. Roll ons on the freeway with Vettes would be fun. Anyway, even with the 100 hp shot, still way below sea level 75 hp and all seems to be working well. Info on plugs ( brands and numbers) would be helpful. Hard to find that online. Thanks again for the info on the tunes. My personal experience says you are dead nuts on the tunes at altitude.

 

[08GT500]

You’re Absolutely Welcome! Imagine the Car @ Sea level with the HP & Spray!! Yeah, a 60’ Hook n’ Roll must be astounding, Sounds near similar to my GT500’s previous Characteristics regarding Tire spin. It’s fun, vicious HP with Posi- at the same time the “if this Car PLANTED, I’d be looking at clouds” thing kicks in.lol!
For Plugs, the NGK (6510) LTR71X-11 Iridium IX Plugs Work very well, 1 Colder than OEM. Similar to forced induction, closing the Gap does work better, and you’re undoubtedly on the Rich side- long as you don’t have Fuel pressure interruption, I’d imagine you’re fine. Reading the Plugs tells all!
Theres always using a progressive NOS Controller, which may help you, as it did me. The one I use is by Nitrous Outlet, they also make a 50-250HP Hardline Plate System that will support up to a 400 HP Shot. https://lmr.com/item/NO-001014510/2011-Mustang-50L-Nitrous-Outlet-Plate-Nitrous-Kit
Controllers, otherwise AKA; “Window Switches”. I’d used the below. They have many “true” tapered NOS Controllers that feel like a Supercharger, yet you can Program in percentages of NOS power gains, anywhere in the Gears or RPM ranges you desire. It basically “bends” with the Car’s Traction abilities, for the quickest acceleration. Turn it off, you’re back to doing. 360’s, lol!
https://lmr.com/item/NO-0061001/nitrous-outlet-winmax-dual-channel-window-switch-00-61001
Do you have a WideBand 02(Air/Fuel) Gauge?

 

[MarineDeuce]

You’re Absolutely Welcome! Imagine the Car @ Sea level with the HP & Spray!! Yeah, a 60’ Hook n’ Roll must be astounding, Sounds near similar to my GT500’s previous Characteristics regarding Tire spin. It’s fun, vicious HP with Posi- at the same time the “if this Car PLANTED, I’d be looking at clouds” thing kicks in.lol!
For Plugs, the NGK (6510) LTR71X-11 Iridium IX Plugs Work very well, 1 Colder than OEM. Similar to forced induction, closing the Gap does work better, and you’re undoubtedly on the Rich side- long as you don’t have Fuel pressure interruption, I’d imagine you’re fine. Reading the Plugs tells all!
Theres always using a progressive NOS Controller, which may help you, as it did me. The one I use is by Nitrous Outlet, they also make a 50-250HP Hardline Plate System that will support up to a 400 HP Shot. https://lmr.com/item/NO-001014510/2011-Mustang-50L-Nitrous-Outlet-Plate-Nitrous-Kit
Controllers, otherwise AKA; “Window Switches”. I’d used the below. They have many “true” tapered NOS Controllers that feel like a Supercharger, yet you can Program in percentages of NOS power gains, anywhere in the Gears or RPM ranges you desire. It basically “bends” with the Car’s Traction abilities, for the quickest acceleration. Turn it off, you’re back to doing. 360’s, lol!
https://lmr.com/item/NO-0061001/nitrous-outlet-winmax-dual-channel-window-switch-00-61001
Do you have a WideBand 02(Air/Fuel) Gauge?

 

[MarineDeuce]

Do not have a wideband 02 (fuel/air) gauge but will seriously look into it. Of course I can view the fuel/air mix in the data window between gauges but things are happening so fast in 1st, 2nd and 3rd my small and feeble is pretty focused on the tach and listening for bad engine sounds. And lordy yes, if that thing would hook up . . . Which, of course brings us to why all articles on this subject rapidly turn to new rear wheels and slicks of one kind or another, tearing out seats and insulation, replacing all sorts of under body suspension parts with tubular stuff to save 8 lbs etc. I am going to stick with the unadulterated fun of smoking the tires every now and then just because. Thanks for the plug info. Had a time finding anything but a guy from NGK did provide an NGK number one cooler than my stock 519s. Took 20 min on the phone.

 

[08GT500]

Hello again! Sorry to hear about the Spark Plug issue, did where you Buy not Stock them or just verifying?
I needed to amend a previous statement from my 2nd Text. When I’d stated “If this CarPLANTED, I’d be looking at Clouds” ....Substitute “ The MOON” for “Clouds”.. (You’re already looking at Clouds, lol)! I totally understand the fun factor, you’re correct- many do NOT! If I’m looking to tear up another Car, Racing Day 1320- i add my Slicks... if FUN is doing the 1st gear Zig, 2nd Gear Zag, 3rd Gear Zig, 4th Gear Zag, Zig, an’ straight (hopefully) I run my Nitto 315’s..+-We share the same Hobby, lol!
Reminds me of my 64 ‘ GTO (Super Duty 421) or my 71’ SS454 Chevelle- many Moons ago- it’s NOW actually repeatedly achievable to do (and hear from those who saw, or heard) 60-70+MPH with the Car at 10-15 Degree’s off Centerline, Engine bouncing in the Red & screaming at the Tires to Grab, even more knowing the American V-8 Winding is ‘easy listening’ to all in a 1/8th Mile Radius (BEST Sound ever conceived by Man). I choose Sites, carefully..People, Animals, other Vehicles, Road condition...and no Trees, etc. to slam into (should that last “Zig-Zag” & Whip not end up straight). It takes a long time to Master (And still realize all the experience in the World STILL guarantees nothing). I run the area Slowly, first- check it out.
I’d left a you link about Methanol Injection Below, May help with Density, Heat Soak:http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...-performance-water-methanol-injection-system/
If you have any other questions regarding Tunes or whatever, please -Post it. Happy to do what I can. I’ll IM you my info. I can Stream Datalog you by exchanging Information, if you’d like at some point, also get good deals on Parts. I use SCT’s Pro Software, as well as HPTuners, for OBD-2. OBD-0 & 1 I use Crome Pro, Megasquirt, mostly- for Ford’s. In the Meantime, enjoy!!
Did verify: 2011-2017 Mustang GT NGK Plugs are (6509) IX for a Stock Heat range OEM replacement, NGK Plugs (1) Range colder than Stock, (6510) IX, (2) ranges colder, have personally run previously when spraying >/= 200-350 HP Wet NOS (2015 Mustang GT) or high level Boost (22-40 Lbs) BRISK Plugs # RR12S.
(5) Pics of one Pony- Grocery Getter GT500, the Mill, and the Nitrous Express 50-250HP (Supports 400 HP) Hardline NOS System; pre-Install. Dropped 3” Rear, 2” Front. Stiffer w/Better Wt. Xfer. Nose heaviness bias much improved as well. Best! John

 

[Noobz347]

Looking for info on BAMA tunes 13-gt-89s, 13-gt-91s and 13-gt-91r. These came with a BAMA tuner that was in the 2013 Mustang GT 5.0 Premium I bought a few months back. Bama does not want to talk to me about these for reasons unrevealed and I am not a current "lifetime tunes" member. Hoping to find some info on these from people with these tunes who are currently lifetime members. Who might be able to get this info from Bama by simply asking. I run this car at 6,000 feet elevation, stock tune with a 100 hp ZEX nitrous shot with no problems. Bama has offered, for $150, to datalog my setup and tweak it but with a 100 hp already on board seems unlikely they will improve things much and 100 hp is so unmanageable in 1st and 2nd gear on standard tires that it may be an exercise in nuttiness. Still, would like to know what they do.

Pay for the life-time tunes. It's cheaper than acquiring the necessary hardware/software and much lower learning curve than make the alterations yourself.

Though it's true you will make a little less power at 6000 feet of elevation, it is not something someone would notice whilst driving around town. When the ignition is switch is turned to the "ON" position, ambient air pressure is sampled and air\fuel tables are adjusted accordingly. AFR is still maintained regardless of altitude (within reason) and forced induction reduces the effects of elevation even more.

You've got way too much stuff in the way of real working and driving car to risk it all over a $150 life-time tune membership.

Your tuner is [not] the place to try and find short-cuts. If you want full tuning control yourself without the assistance of these kinds of companies then you should sell that tuner and get one that is user programmable.

 

[Noobz347]

@a91what for anything that I may have forgotten or overlooked.

 

[a91what]

The tune should not be that far off, unless someone really boogered something up when they altered the tune file -doubtful- the car is equipped with a barometric pressure sensor and samples the air density anytime the vehicle is running. If the car still has the stock injectors this table should not have been altered at all and the fuel trims should be dead on.

While running N2O there is no tangible reason to also run water methonal. Spray will cool the intake charge far greater than the water meth will, If anything you will want to spray a very small amount of JUST water to increase the knock threshold of the engine. -Do NOT suggest for a beginner with small shot-

I agree with the above you should just pay BAMA to help you figure it out if there is an issue so they can fix the tune... I do not suggest letting someone else do it. That or buy a new tuner with a company you feel comfortable with.

 

[08GT500]

The link to the Methanol article above was posted for specific comparison of the benefits of running H20 versus Methanol/H20 with NOS or in forced Induction App’s. Marinedeuce, did you happen to speak to BAMA regarding their offer: “One D/L NOS Tune for 150$“, when Buying into ‘Tunes for Life’ you get your D/L NOS Tune & all others for that same 150$? Curious as to their response...
Cheers!

 

[MarineDeuce]

When I spoke to a BAMA rep, the gentleman was very nice. For $150 bucks they would datalog my system and provide updated tunes specific to my various nutty projects for as long as I own the car. No additional charges. My only issue is that at 6000 ft elevation, I am a bit dubious that anything other than stock tune, with up to about 125 hp shot of nitrous will be needed. Have already run 100 hp shot with no ill effects other than ridiculous tire spin in first 3 gears. So the folks at BAMA find another 10 or 20 hp. ???????

 

[Noobz347]

When I spoke to a BAMA rep, the gentleman was very nice. For $150 bucks they would datalog my system and provide updated tunes specific to my various nutty projects for as long as I own the car. No additional charges. My only issue is that at 6000 ft elevation, I am a bit dubious that anything other than stock tune, with up to about 125 hp shot of nitrous will be needed. Have already run 100 hp shot with no ill effects other than ridiculous tire spin in first 3 gears. So the folks at BAMA find another 10 or 20 hp. ???????

You must repeat to yourself over and over again that 6000 ft of elevation means very little to the tuner. The Air Fuel Ratio of the combustion mixture is all he cares about. If it keeps you up at night, you should install a wide-band AFR meter from your favorite vendor so that you can keep an eye on it.

Here's the thing: It's not just oxygen that is less dense at altitude. [AIR] is less dense at altitude. The ratio of oxygen vs. other components of air doesn't change too much with elevation. Mass Air Meters measure just that; The MASS of air that passes through it. It does not care if that mass of air in entering at a pressure of 14.7 lbs /sq inch or 10 lbs. What it will do is reduce the amount of fuel that it injects to match the reduction in air mass.

If your tune is accurate at sea level then it's accurate at elevation. It's the mass of the air that changes, not the content.

 

[08GT500]

When I spoke to a BAMA rep, the gentleman was very nice. For $150 bucks they would datalog my system and provide updated tunes specific to my various nutty projects for as long as I own the car. No additional charges. My only issue is that at 6000 ft elevation, I am a bit dubious that anything other than stock tune, with up to about 125 hp shot of nitrous will be needed. Have already run 100 hp shot with no ill effects other than ridiculous tire spin in first 3 gears. So the folks at BAMA find another 10 or 20 hp. ???????

That’s excellent to hear, is seemed (at first) as though you were getting “taken for a ride”by BAMA for just one Tune for 150$, when Tunes for life- at 150$, giving you free reign of the Tuner you acquired with the Car, and the Datalogged Tune you wanted, and many more if Mod’s Change. I’m sure glad that worked out for you, & now have that option, I’m sure they could free up a few extra HP for you, the important thing is that you’re running a SAFE Tune for your specific Car in the conditions it’s specific environment.
Did you look at that article I’d sent you for H20/H20 Meth Injection, H20 will Cool the Charge, and May help, slightly.
I’d wanted to ask, do you ever plan on going somewhere that’s at much lower Elevations with the Pony? As you now can, request a Tune that will run it’s absolute best in those conditions. The Vehicle will certainly bend to most conditions regarding that, but since you can add a Tune for free- why not explore it?
At or near Sea level You’re looking at significant power gains, you already know this..
If, at Sea level- a BONE STOCK “Race” Tune yields 30RWHP, 35Ft/Lbs, for your Car- (if you’re running a CAI & any Exhaust Mod’s., and considering it Stock- it’s not, from a Tuning perspective). You can gain 50-70 HP (Crank) at Sea level with a CAI, free flowing Exhaust and Tune, alone. Let’s say a 60 HP TOTAL HP gain- for Shi*’s n’ Giggles. Running the 420HP Coyote.
At Sea level, With 100HP of NOS, your Co-efficient from Parasitic/Drivetrain loss, or Co-Efficiencies, is around 15%.
Your 420HP, is affected by that same 15%.
The TUNE at Sea level (I used 60HP with a CAI & Alleback Exhaust, BAMA 93 Octane Tune)- is NET, therefore, unaltered by the Co-efficiencies.
CRANK HP @ Sea level is 580 HP (Gross)
So, 100HP w/15% Loss is 15HP.=85 HP (NET)
420HP w/15% Loss is 63HP =357 HP (NET)
60 HP Tune remains NET. =60 HP (NET)
Total of 78 HP loss due to above Co-Efficiencies.
So, you’re looking at 502 RWHP, and Similar Torque, at Sea level.
Would be interesting to get a Tune to Drive it in these circumstances, Datalog it- then BAMA will
Tweak as needed. Just a thought...
Glad this is working out for you, and it seems that you have options, galore. Even @ 6,000 Ft.!
Rule of Thumb, especially with the known strength of the bottom end of that Motor, you can run Additianal NOS that’s equivalent to 50% of the CRANK *HP of a Gas Engine, Safely.
-Yeah, there’s Folks running 200HP Shots on Stock 220HP, Cast Piston, Cast Recoprocating assembly of 2 Bolt Main 302’s From 1980’s Foxbodies.... well, less Parts to pick up when it disintegrates, versus
you running a 400 Shot!
If I had your Car, I’d be running a (2) Stage WOT Shot @ 3,000+ of 75HP, then a subsequent 125 HP Shot @ 3,000 RPm’s in 3rd, once you click 60 MPH., WOT. Corvettes won’t know what hit em’!
It’s not recommended to hit your NOS much below 3,000 RPM’s, anyway.
* Normally Aspirated HP
Sorry for the Book, just wanted to ask that question, and add a few thoughts. Let me know if you have any questions or thoughts. Until then, keep it under 100 (In School Zones) lol!
John

 

[MarineDeuce]

Thanks for all the VERY GOOD info you guys. Turning cold here in my part of AZ so working on a bottle heater and some insulation. Local fill guys say any burn marks on bottle and no fill. Rather narrow minded of them.

 

[08GT500]

I agree, do a bunch of 360’s at 2AM if front of the Shop! Argggh- just Sand the Bottle & Paint it! Cheap, but effective Bottle Heater...1 layer Thinsulation, then 120V Heating Pad (like 10 Bucks), 1 more layer Thinsulation. Add a couple PCB Mount Relay & Thermocouple under the 1st layer to cut off at certain Temp, 12V to 120V Inverter, Plug in & set to low, trigger Wire to your NOS Controller or Slamswitch in Center Console.
Cost= 25$. Remote Open= 35$. I can draw you up a Sketch for the PCB if desired(?), R&D Circuits & Robotics is a Forte’, primarily what I do for a living.. Cheers! John

 

[MarineDeuce]

A doodle for a heater would be great. You can email to [email protected]. Have a 400 watt square wave inverter from Harbor Freight. My oscilloscope says best square wave I have ever seen from that cheap unit and I have seen a few, living off grid as we do. Have tried some 45 watt pads with some insulation but a bit slow. I think 200 watts would be good. Fast enough but not too much current draw for the 12 volt car system. Would have to wire in a 20 amp circuit to one of the fuse boxes but no biggy. Out for a short drive yesterday. What an incredible car.

 

[08GT500]

Hi, did you get your Tune? BAMA is reliable in their typical 48 Hr.Window. I’d be happy to assist with that to save you some $$. Is your Inverter rated a constant duty Cycle @ 400 Watt peak output, output w/a clean Sine wave is a definite plus. In addition to Heat Pads, there’s another option..I use a specific, Cost effective thermal wrap, first. It’s superb in reducing losses & ensures linear coverage for the App., Capillary Heat transfer allows for lower Heater Cycles (Once Temp. is Stable) & broad distribution of mean Heat transfer, alleviating hot/cold spots, protects the Bottle. 2nd wrap of higher Density allows consistent circulation with little loss.
Ctrl. Circuit consists of A 555 Timer, Thermistor, FET, DIP, Pot, Cap. &. Triac, Thy., Fuseholder (Or a Chip with most components mounted in a ZIF* Socket w/external Pot & Thermistors) on a small PCB, Circuit costs 5-10$, & is auto Regulating. What size Bottle are you running?
I’ll draw it up whichever you prefer w/Part #’s, I use ‘Digi-Key’ for Components. Won’t find a better selection or prices. You have a Pencil Soldering Tool? 6-10 Watts is all you need. Too far beyond and Heat becomes an issue, unless you go with the IC Scocket & a Relay vs.Triac I keep Circuits as small as circumstances allow, but don’t mind upsizing if you prefer.(?) Will Solder Components if desired, John

* ZIF= Zero Insertion Force, pulling the little handle on Chipholder opens the steel slots where the IC pins land, Chip comes out easily, vs a STD. Chip Socket that uses physical force to get IC ‘Home”. With a ZIF Socket, Drop in the Chip and pull lever down, IC Clamps close on the IC Pins, making a solid electrical connection. Very difficult to hurt a ZIF with Heat. STD. Sockets can distort, soldering a Chip in with neither, 1 Second of Heat...much more will Damage Chip.

 

[MarineDeuce]

You must repeat to yourself over and over again that 6000 ft of elevation means very little to the tuner. The Air Fuel Ratio of the combustion mixture is all he cares about. If it keeps you up at night, you should install a wide-band AFR meter from your favorite vendor so that you can keep an eye on it.

Here's the thing: It's not just oxygen that is less dense at altitude. [AIR] is less dense at altitude. The ratio of oxygen vs. other components of air doesn't change too much with elevation. Mass Air Meters measure just that; The MASS of air that passes through it. It does not care if that mass of air in entering at a pressure of 14.7 lbs /sq inch or 10 lbs. What it will do is reduce the amount of fuel that it injects to match the reduction in air mass.

If your tune is accurate at sea level then it's accurate at elevation. It's the mass of the air that changes, not the content.