Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

[General karthief]

I like torque numbers
It's always horsepower, horsepower, horsepower
Gimmie torque! I wanna pull a house down the road.
I guess it comes from drve'n a 'dump truck'

 

[a91what]

It's amazing to me that kind of horsepower is readily attainable with these sub 300ci I6 engines. Alot of guys have a hard time making 350rwhp with a sbf..... He'll my last build only made 300rwhp

 

[General karthief]

I think the reason guys have a problem with getting 350 from a sbf is lack of research/missmatched parts
And listening to facepage fools!

 

[xecute]

It's amazing to me that kind of horsepower is readily attainable with these sub 300ci I6 engines. Alot of guys have a hard time making 350rwhp with a sbf..... He'll my last build only made 300rwhp

That's why in line sixes are so cool. They make more horsepower per cubic inch, and have an extra couple of bearings to hold the crank. As a consequence, you can add a lot of intensive cam timing and in some situations, a big old 650 cfm 4-bbl can make almost as much power as six barrels of ITB. US cam grinders taught the Aussies how to find cam timing to suit the horspower requirments. Mikes roller cam uses a lot of 4.2 liter Jaguar Twin Cam timing lessons. 3.8 and 4.2 liter Jags are longer stroke, smaller bore spacing engines that never really made the power a good Hemi 265 could.

The Aussie made 245 Hemi was designed in the US; the American engineer was supprised just how well the bored out 265 turned out. It turned into a fire breathing monster with just a set of DCOE Webers and the right cam. From 1972 to 1974, the 6 barrel 265 Hemi was the quickest naturally aspirated six cylinder car untill the1974 Lancia Statos and BMW M1 of 1979.

No Aston Martin, or any other kind of car except the Porsche Carrera Turbo could beat it over the 1/4 mile. The 14.4 1/4 mile figure was taken two up, and could easily come down to low 13's one up. Not bad for 295 hp net at 5300 rpm. 302 hp gross at 5600 rpm. The rear wheel Hp was just 233 hp.




Don't be creaped out. As long as you manage the venom, it won't trouble you none. If its gonna bite you, I'll give you the secretes to Slam that Bug.

I'm just the Trunk Monkey that has your back

The air cleaners should work fine.

Pretty similar to the reinforced ones I used on my 2.8 Liter LD28.

In the bug world, they use more throttle bodies, less air speed, but More air flow, and that gets more gas in and out. And if I'm not mistaken, bugs are the fastest responding anumals for the size.


As for ITB's, one of the reasons for the lack of takeup has been evaporative emissions, so you just gotta have some kind of filters to stop any flash back. Its just like poring thinners down your old I-bbl truck to get it started. Sometimes, you get igntion back up through the fuel delivery system.


Ford went single throttle body, sinlge air cleaner for that reason.

Lambrghini, Ferrari and the Alfa Romeo Spica fuel injections systems always had one remote air cleaner and some backflash protection.

It's your call. Lookes like there is metal on the ends of the air cleaners, you just have to make sure they stay on if you on and off the gas, and you get a little bit of fluff going back up the intake. To burn a cotton intake takes a lot of contantly worng fuel delivery with a too rich and then too lean condition. I doubt that'll ever happen in a 400 hp in line six with EFi.

 

[General karthief]

That chap in the boot looks far to happy, liquor or drugs?
Never mind, don't matter a bit.

 

[xecute]

Neither.

Just some crack pot.

But don't leave your German convertable around, karthief.....

It is encouraging to see the other bangers making my power objectives though...That 265 Hemi with the webers made over 337 HP at the rear wheels w/ a cast iron head, and a flat tappet cam....I'll take that every single day.

Hey cma.......your ideas sure look familiar....

Iron canted valve 302 Boss heads sectioned and welded, big 300 Ford six under it, Injection and trumpets

old 23 T bucket Sly One

Sherman Sligh's

 

[droopie85gt]

I'm thinking that's what this thread needs....some insect repellent.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Over the last week I've been going down in the morning, and building the other header.

One tube at a time.

Today I finished it up. And for better or worse, I've got a header that turns up, instead of down.

( kinda appropriate when you consider that the head is from down under.. Seems fitting that now the the head is "up over", the exhaust should go the wrong way.)

I still have to tie in the down pipe, and that'll happen tomorrow.

Whatya think of my " could always go back to a turbo" header?

 

[General karthief]

Looks cool.
When people ask why just tell them it's for the backpressure.

 

[xecute]

Bitchin' pipes, Sir.....

After each successful mission, Permission to smoke a pipe granted!

Or two,six or eight......


Put em through the roof when its in "off road" mode.

One Kiwi racer , Rod Coppins, got a Corvette 327 Fuel Injection V8 from Lamborghini engineer Bob Wallace.


To fit it in his Zephyr, he uses updraft pipes.....

Not quite as disturbing as Lincs200....he used the A/C unit hole as an access portal to the cabin during testing.

 

[Davedacarpainter]

i missed something here Mike, why does your header look like it wants a turbo attached?

 

[General karthief]

Leaving his options open.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

i missed something here Mike, why does your header look like it wants a turbo attached?

I planned on using the down pipe that was attached to the turbo, because it had the bung in it for the O2 sensor, and it was fitted to the exhaust pipe under the car. After I built the first one, it became apparent that I wouldn't be able to get the exhaust to turn tight enough to mate up to the existing down pipe. Rather than do the header over, I decided to hack up the down pipe instead.

The irony here is that after hacking up the down pipe, the fact that I had one upturned header made the whole " Why did I do this again?" Rear its head.

I decided that purely for aesthetics, I would keep the upturned system so the engine compartment would still look filled up. A six banger with a bottom exiting header looks lopsided to me when you consider what's gonna be on the other side of the head.

You have to consider that I consider the wow factor Dave...Because unlike some of the other folks here who build a car because "they think it's cool", I build a car because I want other people to think its cool too.

* Maybe I'll make a fake mini gun and put it where the water pump would be..I'll make it so you can tell it's a bunch of Home Depot tubing, welded poorly together with a piece of 1/2" strap steel. Then,..ill slap an Ammo can on my fender, and make a feed slot for the ammo belt that will look equally cobbled up.

Then.....ill make a sign that says I did all of this because I think it looks cool,...and I'm lifting the hood because I could give a sht what you think about it.

 

[xecute]

If you get bored with 400 hp at the flywheel (ludicrus idea though it may seem) you can add two turbos next time.....


Back a few posts, you discussed optimum pipe length before collector is 30", so you've kinda got that with the inflected primary length in a U-bend to make it reach close to that, the six pipes are effectively longer; as long as they can be.


The secondary pipe becomes a single "base collector" to feed the huge pipe at the "cease and desist" end.



A Great chance to have a two lamp stand hacked wrongly welded up menorah with six pipes to the hood, and the rest of it for on road conditions. Cut outs to control the Street Legal and Race postions.


Six pipes coming outa the hood on the passenger side for exhaust, and six similar pipes on the drivers side for the intake.

You run 12 noid lights off the EDIS6, and have them flashing at night from the trumpets.

That'd be like the planned port holes....From a Buick 8, but instead of 6, you'd have 12.....

I wouldn't put it past you.....Coppins Rods, reachin for the skyyyyyyyy!!!!!

Luv the exhaust creativity, knew it'd be great!

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

If you get bored with 400 hp at the flywheel (ludicrus idea though it may seem) you can add two turbos next time.....


Back a few posts, you discussed optimum pipe length before collector is 30", so you've kinda got that with the inflected primary length in a U-bend to make it reach close to that, the six pipes are effectively longer; as long as they can be.


The secondary pipe becomes a single "base collector" to feed the huge pipe at the "cease and desist" end.



A Great chance to have a two lamp stand hacked wrongly welded up menorah with six pipes to the hood, and the rest of it for on road conditions. Cut outs to control the Street Legal and Race postions.


Six pipes coming outa the hood on the passenger side for exhaust, and six similar pipes on the drivers side for the intake.

You run 12 noid lights off the EDIS6, and have them flashing at night from the trumpets.

That'd be like the planned port holes....From a Buick 8, but instead of 6, you'd have 12.....

I wouldn't put it past you.....Coppins Rods, reachin for the skyyyyyyyy!!!!!

Luv the exhaust creativity, knew it'd be great!

Meh...I'm gonna have to pass on the 12 pipes sticking out of the hood thing Dean..If I was gonna do that, I may as well consider the machine gun thing too.

In this life, neither will happen. Although I do appreciate your comments.

Today, The plan will be to build, position, and plumb the vacuum reservoir. Lets think of that as the Monster's external Iron lung.
It looks to me like I may, or more likely, may not be able to run the engine in speed density. That being determined solely because of the lack of a common plenum post throttle body for the ECU to try and figure out what the engine is doing.
If I lose Speed density, that'll means I lose the MAP sensor's benefit...determining for me whether or not I'm at idle, accelerating, cruising, or decelerating, whether or not the engine is under load, and adjusting timing and fuel to account for that. I lose EGO correction,...the corroboration to the map sensor that I need more or less fuel...effectively making the O2 sensor worthless. I lose the self tuning feature of Tunerstudio.............I may as well have put 3 Webers on the thing because, in effect I have went backwards. I can now only adjust fuel based on throttle position. The car will probably be tuned Alpha N.

Now I'm still gonna build the iron lung (Actually made out of steel), cause I'm hoping that I still have a prayer in hell of being able to use that as a remote plenum, and commensurately be able to run the engine in Speed density. The engine will be plumbed to it through 6 individual vacuum lines, coming from each of the throttle bodies. The brakes need vacuum still, as does the transmission. I also need a place to plumb my FIDLE valve to show the engine a vacuum leak at cold start, so that it'll run faster. I need to have a place to plumb my MAP sensor to. How big that thing needs to be is the question.

That means that I'm going down town to get push connectors for all of the lines that I'm getting ready to plumb.

That means that I'm not messing with and finishing the exhaust today...( It's the way everything is done with me...get to 90%,..move onto something thats at 0%, till you still have 100% of the build left in front of you in (10) 10% chunks.)

Besides....It'll give you guys a new set of pictures to look at this afternoon.

 

[xecute]

http://www.speedhunters.com/2017/06/rolling-double-six-v12-toyota-mark-ii/


Its a bit of a Black faced Sheep....but some NZ sheep are friendlier than others....

The actually first 2 minutes and 8 seconds of the Top Sleepers of the World (part 12)

"
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCx_ly_k3-c
"


View: https://youtu.be/wiLsGtgQwuQ

Nathan Messanger, the owner from NZ , said it best

Ryan asked "Hi guys, Fantastic build Nathan, and well presented Richard.

Can you shed some light on what the sensor is in the individual throttle body please ?
MAF ?
Air Inlet Temp ?

I didn't think MAF sensors could work on individual throttle bodies without a plenum, especially so close to the throttle body, and with the resonance of air.
Can you give a little info towards this please,

is it a custom setting in the ECU to measure 1 cylinder and a multiplication factor in the map to account for all 12 cylinders ? Thanks."

Nathan Messanger "Shes the air temp sensor from Link. The single TPS does most of the other work. Aaaaand that's about the limit of my knowledge on the wiring and tuning side of things sorry."

All the rest of the comments, not so much Ryan's but Arne's, are typical spirious banter and bullsh!+.

Don't need no:-
cross over on a bank fire V12
no differerential accelerator linkages,
don't need no updraft throttle bodies

Nathan again

"No irregular response whatsoever. Might have overthought this one bud."

Page 24, but specifically 54 of the MegaSquirt manual

"The aim of the ITB mode is to seamlessly switch between Speed-density and Alpha-N with the single tuning table."

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Megasquirt2_Setting_Up-3.3.pdf

gives you three options to meter fuel. Alpha N works just fine, but now with MegaSquirt, you can use the same kind of stuff that Link Computers G4+ ECUs et al use for MAF function.

There is one other forum member here who has unlocked this little gem for MS2 or the 3rd version. The transform scares the crap out of people, but once you've got the transform, you got a 3rd fall back.

But really, even Delco P4 has open loop look-up values, and can operate an 8-bbl Bank Fire instilation just fine. Fords EECIV is generally sequential for Port EFI, but some batch fire. It's just jam....does the same thing. MS2 canwork fine on fixed values, if you use the stock lookups.The MAP isn't gonna screw you up.

Don't over think it.

This is what my Sheep Loving V12 friends use when you have to go it alone to create a 367 rwhp , 332 lb-ft 5 liter V12 calibration when your using cut down Silver Top 4AGE 20 valve ITB's.

Glad you asked, I might never have said....

 

[a91what]

Meh...I'm gonna have to pass on the 12 pipes sticking out of the hood thing Dean..If I was gonna do that, I may as well consider the machine gun thing too.

In this life, neither will happen. Although I do appreciate your comments.

Today, The plan will be to build, position, and plumb the vacuum reservoir. Lets think of that as the Monster's external Iron lung.
It looks to me like I may, or more likely, may not be able to run the engine in speed density. That being determined solely because of the lack of a common plenum post throttle body for the ECU to try and figure out what the engine is doing.
If I lose Speed density, that'll means I lose the MAP sensor's benefit...determining for me whether or not I'm at idle, accelerating, cruising, or decelerating, whether or not the engine is under load, and adjusting timing and fuel to account for that. I lose EGO correction,...the corroboration to the map sensor that I need more or less fuel...effectively making the O2 sensor worthless. I lose the self tuning feature of Tunerstudio.............I may as well have put 3 Webers on the thing because, in effect I have went backwards. I can now only adjust fuel based on throttle position. The car will probably be tuned Alpha N.

Now I'm still gonna build the iron lung (Actually made out of steel), cause I'm hoping that I still have a prayer in hell of being able to use that as a remote plenum, and commensurately be able to run the engine in Speed density. The engine will be plumbed to it through 6 individual vacuum lines, coming from each of the throttle bodies. The brakes need vacuum still, as does the transmission. I also need a place to plumb my FIDLE valve to show the engine a vacuum leak at cold start, so that it'll run faster. I need to have a place to plumb my MAP sensor to. How big that thing needs to be is the question.

That means that I'm going down town to get push connectors for all of the lines that I'm getting ready to plumb.

That means that I'm not messing with and finishing the exhaust today...( It's the way everything is done with me...get to 90%,..move onto something thats at 0%, till you still have 100% of the build left in front of you in (10) 10% chunks.)

Besides....It'll give you guys a new set of pictures to look at this afternoon.

Oh Mike....

You will not lose any of that junk it will just be done from a different lookup table is all... BTW ego correction does not care what lookup table your using, it's fuel algorithm adjustment is the same for all of them... map,maf,alpha-n,ITB it doesn't matter I can help you use whatever we need to make it run again. Have faith sir I won't steer you wrong.

Remember what I said before I can take your old tune and convert it into an ITB tune for you, it won't be perfect with all the changes but it will be a good start.

 

[xecute]

What a91what said, CMA!

Let me buy you a pint next time your down in Dunedin.....EFi is great to work with from lookup values.

Delco P4, EECIV, they all work with locked in values and the MAP sensor and EGO or O2 doesn't factor in things often.

Just like three DCOE 45's, set fixed fuel delivery values via the main fuel system are fine. EFi is way ahead of emulsion tubes, indle, progression and transition cycles.

Oh, and by the way, EFi or not, a set of Triple DCOE 45's, either managed by an ECM, or by dilligent calibration from Emusion tube, jets and air correctors...its gonna cost an arm an a leg.


You purchases have been savy and smart. Something like this, while good, won't work even half as well.

Whatcha got, its way cheaper, and "better-er"


Got into it Mike. You'll kill everything. Sixes are race cars, V12 are's all show, and no go.

Think BMW M1 style power...on steriods!

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Well it's good to know that you two are out there.

Obviously, and despite my btching, I'm still plugging forward.

Today, I built the iron lung. I tapped the throttle bodies, and screwed in (temporarily) the 1/4" push lock fittings that will feed vacuum signal to the I.L.

I painted the thing.....and anybody who knows me knows that I have a problem with wanting to handle wet paint,...so for tonight, you'll have to imagine the 12" long piece of 3" exhaust tubing w/ 10 holes drilled and tapped into the thing. W/ two little mount ears welded on so I can bolt the thing to the frame rail immediately below the master cylinder. coming off the throttle bodies are 6 1/4" red nylon lines that plumb into the sealed up piece of exhaust tubing. 3 additional red lines go to the MAP sensor, the Fidle valve, and the trans,....and one 3/8" hose goes to the Power brake booster.

There,....got a picture in your head? I'll show the real thing tomorrow

 

[xecute]

I painted the thing.....and anybody who knows me knows that I have a problem with wanting to handle wet paint,...so for tonight, you'll have to imagine the 12" long piece of 3" exhaust tubing w/ 10 holes drilled and tapped into the thing. W/ two little mount ears welded on so I can bolt the thing to the frame rail immediately below the master cylinder. coming off the throttle bodies are 6 1/4" red nylon lines that plumb into the sealed up piece of exhaust tubing. 3 additional red lines go to the MAP sensor, the Fidle valve, and the trans,....and one 3/8" hose goes to the Power brake booster.

There,....got a picture in your head? I'll show the real thing tomorrow

Not quite. I have Visonary loss at the moment...

I'll pull through when you show me the pictures...