Fox Coast High Performance 408 Throws A Bearing After 10 Months, 900 Miles... How To Proceed...

[Bullitt347]

I had an issue with a built short block from Ford Performance Solutions years ago. They denied EVERYTHING. It was all my fault. I sent the short block back. The error was so bad that I had not even unstrapped the short block from the pallet when I saw the horrible machine work. It was not until they got the engine back that all of the sudden they where back peddling and apologizing and telling me that people had been fired for such a F-up ect. It was at that point and that point only did I get my money back. The donks even had me pay for the return freight, but they ultimately gave me that back as well. Point was, they automatically assumed that everything was my fault and that they could not have made such a grievous error. It did not matter what I said or pictures I sent them via e-mail, it was not until they had it back in their possession before they acknowledged any mistake on their part. Up until then, I thought I was out all of the $ invested.

 

[SadbutTrue]

I had an issue with a built short block from Ford Performance Solutions years ago. They denied EVERYTHING. It was all my fault. I sent the short block back. The error was so bad that I had not even unstrapped the short block from the pallet when I saw the horrible machine work. It was not until they got the engine back that all of the sudden they where back peddling and apologizing and telling me that people had been fired for such a F-up ect. It was at that point and that point only did I get my money back. The donks even had me pay for the return freight, but they ultimately gave me that back as well. Point was, they automatically assumed that everything was my fault and that they could not have made such a grievous error. It did not matter what I said or pictures I sent them via e-mail, it was not until they had it back in their possession before they acknowledged any mistake on their part. Up until then, I thought I was out all of the $ invested.

realistically, in this business I can understand a motor shop initially thinking the issue is with the customer. they are high performance engines and not everyone installing them is a nascar or f1 engine repair expert, lol. I'm sure they see all kinds of idiot mistakes, and I'm sure they have had said customers try to pin all sorts of mistakes on them. that said, I think that basic understanding flips when some really basic issues occur that are the builder's fault, things that an experienced shop should know (especially when the correct options are sitting right there).

You can't really understand how happy i was when i looked in that distributor hole and didn't see carnage, and when i confirmed thats the right distributor gear on there (based on a few posts earlier i started doubting myself and thinking "uh oh, what if i screwed up with the distributor and did this to myself"). I know what I'm doing, at least to a point

They haven't really pointed the finger at me yet, but in emails continue to act like "this is what you'd have to do to fix it". They've acknowledged the oil issue is 'odd' but are simply telling me to drop the pan, inspect/replace the oil pump/pushrod, as if that is going to un-ruin the bearing. Playing the game and being diplomatic for now, anyway.

Glad it worked out for you. i have been told that at some point I may have to pull the engine and send it to some shop for a similar diagnostic. My initial feelings on that are somewhat mixed... spending several hundred to ship an engine to a shop where its clearly in their interest to find something wrong that was beyond their control.. I guess maybe I'm paranoid, but seems like there isn't a whole lot to stop them from making some random determination that points the finger at me (or at someone, anyone but themselves).

Will update as i converse though.

 

[SadbutTrue]

on a side note... on an MSD distributor/roller cam setup... should the oil pump pushrod either be visible in that prior picture, and/or have come out with the distributor?

if it is supposed to be visible, is it?

*ducks*

 

[RangerJoe]

It's hard to tell what I can or can't see in that last pic, but yes, you should be able to look in the distributor hole and see the top of the oil pump shaft. If it is not there, it may have broke amd fell in the pan. What brand shaft did you use?

Joe

 

[SadbutTrue]

It's hard to tell what I can or can't see in that last pic, but yes, you should be able to look in the distributor hole and see the top of the oil pump shaft. If it is not there, it may have broke amd fell in the pan. What brand shaft did you use?

Joe

CHP installed those... from the build sheet:
Oil Pan - CAN -15-650; Oil Pan Stock Replacement, F/351W front sump
Oil pump - ELG-EM63, F/351W stock replacement
Pickup tube - CAN-15-651, pickup for 15-650
Oil Pump driveshaft - P/n 11481, F/351W Heavy duty

All i got..

 

[Black1987]

CHP installed those... from the build sheet:
Oil Pan - CAN -15-650; Oil Pan Stock Replacement, F/351W front sump
Oil pump - ELG-EM63, F/351W stock replacement
Pickup tube - CAN-15-651, pickup for 15-650
Oil Pump driveshaft - P/n 11481, F/351W Heavy duty

All i got..

You said there is bearing material in the oil....picture of the oil. When you say the engine failed were there other indications like chatter, knocking, smoke, loss of power,....or was it just you noticed the bearing material in the oil? By material are we talking small particles or chunks?

The reason why I'm asking is this sounds like the initial oil change. What did the 500 mile break in oil change look like, because you can have acceptable amount material in this period. I'm curious

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Minor update: CHP wanted me to remove the valve covers and examine the rockers, pushrods, which I did. I removed 12 of the pushrods/rockers (the other 4 were compressing a spring and didn't want to damage anything, lose a finger, etc by letting them out; probably over cautious but whatever). I can't see any visible bending or damage. Rockers all move fine, don't make noise. Pushrods appear straight.. I rolled them on a flat surface and while I *may* have seen a tiny wobble as a few of them rolled, I couldn't see anything that was really definitive as far as the human eye goes. Is there a simple test that can reliably verify they're ok or not?

One thing I *did* notice - the driver's side cylinder bank was much 'drier' with regards to oiling. I was marking each rocker with a sharpie (to keep track of which was where, seemed like a good idea). I had no issues marking any of the driver's side rockers. However, on the passenger side, every single rocker had a coat of oil on it that prevented the sharpie from working. IT seems like a minor difference, but it was applicable to every single rocker. Additionally, once I noticed, that, I noticed there while there were little pools of oil in the various grooves of the cylinder head (like you'd expect), there weren't many (if any, now that i think about it), on the driver side. I did the driver side first so didn't actively look for it on that side, but I'm pretty confident there were no pools.

I have pictures of the pushrods and access to both them and the rockers if they're helpful, but there isn't much to see

Combined with the basically empty/ mostly dry oil filter (and the generally low oil pressure throughout service..)... could this be evidence of an issue with the oil pump/pickup?

I removed the distributor. Gear looks like it did when we installed it, and no carnage evident in the distributor hole on the block. Also verified it is indeed the summit gear (see yellow dot) for roller cams, so we got that right. See pictures.
.

I put a new engine together several years ago, and there was very little oil pressure (it was like almost non-existent). However I stumbled upon it, I ended up dropping the pan and increasing the clearance between the pickup (which was smashed against the bottom floor of the pan) to about 3/8". Oil pressure returned to normal immediately after that.

Your oil pump pressure would have to be very low for damage to occur. A typical idiot light some times won't even illuminate till 5psi is all that is left.

Again, (forgive if you have already said it) but I'll ask again. What failed? or,...Did anything actually "fail?" All I've seen are pics of junk in your oil. The pieces are certainly huge, and I would've expected to see a come apart somewhere on the top end to leave so many large pieces of junk in a drain pan.


If you are going exclusively on that w/o any any audible noise accompanying it it could be several things that range from the block was not cleaned properly, and that is machining crap, to the early signs of bearing failure. The only way now for you to ascertain that is gonna require that you pull the pan, and remove some main, and rod caps.

 

[SadbutTrue]

You said there is bearing material in the oil....picture of the oil. When you say the engine failed were there other indications like chatter, knocking, smoke, loss of power,....or was it just you noticed the bearing material in the oil? By material are we talking small particles or chunks?

The reason why I'm asking is this sounds like the initial oil change. What did the 500 mile break in oil change look like, because you can have acceptable amount material in this period. I'm curious

The oil had been changed twice prior. Once at 200 miles and once at around 700 miles.

edit: The oil in both the 200 and 700 mile change looked much better, though still somewhat dark with some metal shavings, as you'd expect in a break-in. No flakes though.

Here's a pic of the flakes (not sure where it went..)

I put a new engine together several years ago, and there was very little oil pressure (it was like almost non-existent). However I stumbled upon it, I ended up dropping the pan and increasing the clearance between the pickup (which was smashed against the bottom floor of the pan) to about 3/8". Oil pressure returned to normal immediately after that.

Your oil pump pressure would have to be very low for damage to occur. A typical idiot light some times won't even illuminate till 5psi is all that is left.

Again, (forgive if you have already said it) but I'll ask again. What failed? or,...Did anything actually "fail?" All I've seen are pics of junk in your oil. The pieces are certainly huge, and I would've expected to see a come apart somewhere on the top end to leave so many large pieces of junk in a drain pan.

If you are going exclusively on that w/o any any audible noise accompanying it it could be several things that range from the block was not cleaned properly, and that is machining crap, to the early signs of bearing failure. The only way now for you to ascertain that is gonna require that you pull the pan, and remove some main, and rod caps.

I'm not sure exactly what to say. I haven't been able to tear the engine down and likely won't for some time. The flakes in the oil, based on my somewhat limited but not totally zero experience, indicates a bearing has failed. I don't know which, and I haven't physically seen it. Unfortunately my access to the car is limited by a couple factors, so this process might be (likely will be) more drawn out than ideal.

Is there any explanation for those flakes besides a bearing?

Noise-wise... as I mentioned (might have gotten deleted with that second post), when last it was running there was an audible popping sound coming from the top of the motor, as well as a bearing 'groan', one that was clearly not related to any front of the motor components (pullies, fans, etc). I really wanted it to be my transmission, but it wasn't that either. Engine wouldn't idle. Perhaps I should have run it before i started disassembling just to get a recording of the noise and perhaps use a stethoscope, but I didn't want to do more damage and I wasn't confident what that would prove. The noises above had only been occurring for a mile or so (when the car was started during this 2 mile trip there was no pop and if there was a bearing groan, I didn't hear it), so I was hoping that whatever damage might be contained to some degree.

Everything that I know about the failure (or 'issue', if we don't want to call it a failure yet), has been posted in this thread. I shall continue to update. Removing the pan is on the radar and something I could potentially do, though probably not for a couple weekends.

 

[stykthyn]

Did you ever find the drive shaft for the distributor?

 

[SadbutTrue]

No. I thought that picture was sharp enough that maybe someone with a better eye would see it, but since it isn't... I'm going to try to stop by the car after work, maybe with a magnet, to see if i can see it/fish it out if its loose.

I guess the pushrod just engages into the bottom of the distributor in the - eyeballing it -3/8" hex/allen type interface?

I guess i should see an 3/8 socket/allen interface in that hole. You'd think it'd be visible in that picture if it was there...

 

[stykthyn]

If it's not there( I couldn't discern it on the photo) then it twisted and sheared off. Hence the groan, your huge chunks of metal, and probably theloss of oil pressure that will wipe a bearing.

 

[SadbutTrue]

looks like the pushrods there. took a closer look and its definitely there, and looks okay (as far as i can tell, anyway). can only really see the top bit, but hwere it engages looks fine.

 

[stykthyn]

Well since its there, you can rule that out for now. I would do like mike said. Pull the engine and drop the oil pan and inspect the bearings.

 

[SadbutTrue]

Finally got the car to my parents house and was able to drop the pan. Tons of debris / flakes in the pan, but looking up from the underside of the engine its not clear which bearing(s) it might me coming from.

Is there any trick to this (this being finding the bearing thats bad, and determining which to replace, in the even we don't replace all)? My dad works with bearings quite a bit and seems confident we could replace them.

And if I were to have a shop do it.. what would it reasonably run? (bearing only re-build)

Further, is it possible to do a full bearing replacement with the engine in the car? I'd assume con rod bearings sure, but main bearings not. We may pull the engine but its a bit of a task and my parents place lacks space to really set the engine aside, so my dad would prefer to do it in the car if possible.

Nothing new from CHP except a few rage-inducing emails. THey continually just keep telling us to take things apart and act as if its just debugging a carb that isn't tuned right or something; completely unwilling to develop an actual game plan for solving an apparent major engine problem on an engine they built and screwed up multiple things on. I did, however, get an email where the customer service guy made a shrodinger's cat joke instead of a plan. These guys are useless :/

 

[hoopty5.0]

Well, the Schrodinger's cat analogy is pretty accurate. You won't know what is alive or dead until you open it up and check.

I'd also guess that you won't be able to get by without having your journals polished at the very least. You need to pull the engine and take pictures as you tear the whole thing down so you can prove to CHP what failed and why.

 

[stykthyn]

Well, the Schrodinger's cat analogy is pretty accurate. You won't know what is alive or dead until you open it up and check.

I'd also guess that you won't be able to get by without having your journals polished at the very least. You need to pull the engine and take pictures as you tear the whole thing down so you can prove to CHP what failed and why.

100% spot on. No telling what was taken out or damaged as things failed. I would have everything removed and documented.

 

[Boosted92LX]

Look man, you don't have a catastrophic failure in an engine like this and not tear it down completely and check/replace everything. Even cam bearings. What your best plan of attack here is, is to just pull the dang engine out, and tear it all down. There's a good possibility the crank is so damaged it'll need to be turned to use in which case CHP should replace it, and the bearings. Cam bearings too, because the trash that got pumped thru the engine killed them too. Guaranteed. Just do it.. I don't mean to sound coarse, but there is no quick fix for your situation. Sorry bud.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Look man, you don't have a catastrophic failure in an engine like this and not tear it down completely and check/replace everything. Even cam bearings. What your best plan of attack here is, is to just pull the dang engine out, and tear it all down. There's a good possibility the crank is so damaged it'll need to be turned to use in which case CHP should replace it, and the bearings. Cam bearings too, because the trash that got pumped thru the engine killed them too. Guaranteed. Just do it.. I don't mean to sound coarse, but there is no quick fix for your situation. Sorry bud.

It's time for somebody other than me to be the one sounding "coarse".

 

[bentley429isBAC]

Could of had the engine pulled out by now with all this typing.

 

[mikestang63]

As stated, this motor needs to be completely torn down to the block and machined,cleaned, align bored. new bearings, crank turned. etc. That, or get a jy explorer motor.