Fun with Ethanol

bhuff30

Founding Member
Dec 11, 2001
6,037
35
129
Olathe KS
Fun with Ethanol, E20 and E30

I always like trying new things and experimenting with cars and engines. I switched the 88 2.3 turbo mustang to run on E85 by simply installing larger injectors (30% increase is needed) and it made GREAT power after tuning for the extra octane. But this is my toy and if it has problems, I've got the 97GT daily driver. As it turned out, I was making too much extra power and cracked the block, but I knew it could have core shift problems when I built the engine last summer.

I've run E10 in the 97GT plenty of times in the past, with no difference from regular gasoline. I found absolutely no difference in mileage, and in fact, my new recent best times on the 97GT (see sig) were run with E10 in the tank.

Now, there is a new alternative fuel station near me selling E20, E30 and E85. As you know, the mustang is NOT a flex fuel vehicle and a maximum of 10% is recommended. I've recently read sources that showed nearly all newer cars (say from the last 15-20 years) can actually run E20 with no changes, and nearly all can run E30 with no changes so I thought I'd try it on the 97. I have no concerns but air fuel ratio from the increase in ethanol. The standard gasoline seals from the last 15-20 years can deal with ethanol very well. In fact, even the 15% gasoline in E85 makes it much less corrosive to the seals. I don't think I'd try E98 though.

I'm going to conservatively step up the ratio of ethanol so I notice any driveability problems early. I can always top it off with pure gasoline if it is running too lean. Today, I topped it off with 7.8 gallons of E30, making approximately E15 in the tank. It is running perfect as always.

I even tested the power running ethanol. I'll frequently use my digital camera to record the speedometer during an acceleration run. Then, I can analyze it frame by frame and determine with exact precision how long it took to gain every 5mph, (to 1/30th of a second). The test method: flat level road, calm wind, one pull in each direct) On the first test, I had Quik Trip 87 octane in the tank. I made two 3rd gear pulls, from 25 to 90mph (about 1600-5400rpm with 3.27s). The average of these came to 13.75 seconds. Then, I topped off the tank, creating my E15. This added approximatly 48lbs to the car (6.2 lbs per gallon and 7.8 gallons). I made 2 more identical 3rd gear pulls, recording the speedometer. This time, the Average was 13.95 seconds. This is 1.5% slower, but I added 1.4% to the weight of the car (48lbs/3500lbs). This shows no measurable change of performance while running E15.

I drive at least 400 miles a week, and I get a very consistent 20.0 miles per gallon. I will report my mileage while running the various ratios of ethanol, but I expect very little change.

Now, I'm going to add a gallon of E85 to the tank to give me E20 to start the week. Results to follow.

So why would I want to run E20 or E30? I'm not a tree hugger, as is evident by the offroad H pipe, but ethanol does have much improved emissions. E20 and E30 is also 5-10 cents per gallon cheaper than your common 87 octane, and E20 should have at least 91 octane, and E30 even higher, so performance could certainly be improved by tuning for premium. I also like the idea of not being so depended on oil. While I think corn is nearly the WORST way to get ethanol, I beleive there is great potential for ethanol. I want to prove that and I take interest and fun in the experiments.
 
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topped off the tank with 1 gallon of E85. This means, I have at least E20, probably closer to 21-22% ethanol. Still runs perfect as always. After giving the computer some time to compensate for the slightly different O2 readings, I will put the wideband on it to see how it looks.

Later this week, I'll update with mileage results and maybe even try E30 depending on the AFs.
 
Thats pretty cool.

Where im at there are VERY few gas stations with an ethanol blend advertised.

I think HESS is the only place ive seen that states there is a 10% blend.
 
I'm surrounded by corn fields, so there is no shortage of ethanol here. :D There are stations selling 10% all over, it's normally sold as a mid-grade fuel with 89-90 octane. There are several stations selling E85, one every 20 miles or so, but this new station is the first one around to sell E20 and E30 mixes. If it wasn't already mixed, I definately wouldn't be playing with it. Unfortunately, I'm moving in a month and the E20 and E30 will be 35 miles away in the wrong direction...

Around here, premium is 91, but we aren't even at elevation, just 800ft above sea level, so you can't tune very aggressively. Nothing better than 100+ octane gas that costs at least 50 cents per gallon LESS than premium. I filled up the 2.3 turbo, put in bigger injectors and added a bunch of timing. I was afraid to bump the boost anymore since I was already pushing 20psi from a tiny turbo, but it felt amazing. Those track times in my sig were before switching to E85, but I have no doubt it will go 12s on E85. Traction on the street became a joke, that's my only complaint for E85. :lol:

It smells sooo good too. When I get into boost on the 2.3, it goes pig rich and I can smell the alcohol all around. It's right up there with race gas and tire smoke. :D

I haven't seen anyone selling E98... that's the highest you can get without paying the beverage tax. :D I'm serious! Only 120 octane though...

Thats pretty cool.

Where im at there are VERY few gas stations with an ethanol blend advertised.

I think HESS is the only place ive seen that states there is a 10% blend.
 
I have no idea WTF you are talking about.

I'm playing with ethanol blends because I think it is interesting. It's cheaper than 87, but depending on the blend has as much or more octane than premium. I'm sure as hell not having fun paying more than 3$ gallon for ****ty 87 octane gas that pings in the GT. :notnice:



If you WERE a "tree hugger", you'd be avoiding ethanol blended fuels altogether. But you're not... as you said... :rolleyes:
 
good stuff:nice:


i think "simple" alternative fuels are the way to go as opposed to "complex" hybrid technology that's, in my eyes, is more prone to failure than a regular fill-up. i do agree corn isn't the best way to get it though
 
If you WERE a "tree hugger", you'd be avoiding ethanol blended fuels altogether. But you're not... as you said... :rolleyes:

I know. Its pretty stupid how long it takes the US to adapt. Look at Brazil for instance. The majority of their vehicles run on ethanol. Not made by corn, but rather canes which have a higher yield. So why dont we use canes to brew up the stuff? Politicians=$$ hungrey a-holes. Canes grow great all over south texas and florida. In fact i am sure the farmers would make more money per harvest if it was sold for fuel purposes. Canes dont require anywhere close the amount of water corn takes.

In fact we are supposed to start importing ethanol from Brazil! What a crock of shat! Our government system though good in some cases is freaking retarded.

Matt
 
I've got a couple of questions that I've been curious about. When you run the e85, does the widband still read 14.7 when running in closed loop, even though the actual stoich point for e85 is much lower? If so it would make sense that the narrow band o2 follow as well which would mean the computer would need minimal adjustments to run this. Is that correct or does the o2 sensors still read that actual ratio and major adjustments are required?
 
I'm glad to finally see some interest in this! I've burned about a half tank of E20. The only thing I've noticed so far, is that on a cold morning, I can smell a faint smell of ethanol from the exhaust when I start the car. Smells good though. :D Everything else is 100% normal. I made no changes to the car or my driving habits to run E20. Still performs 100% the same and runs smooth as always (maybe smoother with the higher octane).

The wideband raw output is lambda, and lambda is the same no matter what fuel you are burning. Then, your display converts this to an air fuel ratio assuming you are burning gasoline (as that's what most people burn). No matter what fuel or mixture of fuels you have, if it is stoich your wide band will show 14.7:1 and your narrow band will still function correctly. The computer certainly can make adjustments to fueling based on the O2 sensor feedback. There is obviously a limit to how much it can adjust, but I think it's around 20-25% from what it expects... so don't expect to run E85 and have the computer compensate. It will be plenty happy with E20 and likely E30.

Article of running E20 in non-flex fuel vehicles: http://www.fullflexint.com/pages/E20.htm

A neat little box that adjusts injector pulse widths to run E85 or any ratio of ethanol: http://www.fullflexint.com/ It requires small adjustments if you go between E85 and gasoline though, as oppose to true flex fuel vehicles which have a 500$ sensor in the fuel tank.

I'd encourage everyone to buy E10 (this has been used in gasoline for years and is even standard in some areas), or E20 if you can. Use less gasoline and gas/oil prices will go down. There are hundreds of ways to get ethanol and eventaully our governement will get their heads out of their asses and we'll use more of them.

I've got a couple of questions that I've been curious about. When you run the e85, does the widband still read 14.7 when running in closed loop, even though the actual stoich point for e85 is much lower? If so it would make sense that the narrow band o2 follow as well which would mean the computer would need minimal adjustments to run this. Is that correct or does the o2 sensors still read that actual ratio and major adjustments are required?
 
as long as it's cheaper than a barrel of crude oil i'm fine with that:shrug:

Personally i would rather keep our money within our borders. There's plenty of people that need it like those on welfare with 9 kids and a meth addiction who cant work. So sad.

I hear ya though. I guess Brazil is better than sending money to the middle east? Its still super gay that we cant produce it in a cost and H2O efficient way like others already do.
 
Fill-up is today, so I'll know the mileage soon. I'm guessing it is a bit down, but not because of the ethanol. I really wasn't nice to it this week, I had to regularly check to make sure it wasn't down on power. :D I've also been leaving later in the morning, so I can drive a bit faster down the highway.

It actually feels stronger than usual today. When I first did the acceleration runs mentioned in the first post, I had only run the car about 5 miles after filling it, so the computer may not have had time to realize there was a change and was a bit on the lean side. If for no other reason, it would make sense that you'd gain a few hp on ethanol just because it is oxygenated and also cools the air charge better than gasoline, both can give you a bit of power. I KNOW I felt a seat of the pants difference when I put the 2.3 on E85 without changing the timing or boost. I may try another long 3rd gear pull in the 97, but of course I would have to correct for the weather.

This fill up, I'll give it E30. :nice: