Hidden Power?
- Thread starter Burgundystang
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dodgestang
Active Member
gp001 said:Nick, did you not read my whole post? Cuz the last couple of sentences of my post say almost that exact thing
Yeah I did...I was agreeing with you and reinforcing the point...however I didn't spend near enough time crafting my note..it turned out reading alot different than I intended...but the main points I wanted to pass along were intact so I didn't bother to modify it.......
The old fingers get agead of the brain sometimes
the 2v 289 is a fantastic engine for cruising, you'd never need more power than that just to go for a cruise. but, if the stock 200bhp doesn't appeal to you:
-i'd drop in a 302 crank so you have a few extra cubes displacement without placing your intake system under a serious strain, and it's also a lot cheaper than a full-on stroker kit
-have the heads given a serious porting job, or...do e7's fit on non-roller engines?
-keep the compression around 9.5-10:1
-find an original 289/302 4v intake and strap a 4-bbl on there
-slightly larger cam, maybe 1 or 2 steps up from stock
-pertronix ignitor ignition kit, play with the timing
-tri-y headers, or at least the 289 hi-po manifolds
this is not dissimilar from what has been done to my engine and i can tell you despite the 2.73's holding it back, there is some good power being made by the combo
-i'd drop in a 302 crank so you have a few extra cubes displacement without placing your intake system under a serious strain, and it's also a lot cheaper than a full-on stroker kit
-have the heads given a serious porting job, or...do e7's fit on non-roller engines?
-keep the compression around 9.5-10:1
-find an original 289/302 4v intake and strap a 4-bbl on there
-slightly larger cam, maybe 1 or 2 steps up from stock
-pertronix ignitor ignition kit, play with the timing
-tri-y headers, or at least the 289 hi-po manifolds
this is not dissimilar from what has been done to my engine and i can tell you despite the 2.73's holding it back, there is some good power being made by the combo
SadbutTrue
Founding Member
Free, undetectable: Timing bump up to 12 BTDC, port the heads and possibly intake (match em too), some corvette guys port their exhaust manifolds
Cheap, undetectable: K&N filter, upgrade rear gears to 3.23-3.55, cam (specs already mentioned, should be mild, like a Compcams 262XE), could re-jet and mess with the carburetor to dump more fuel, mufflers (don't see them when you open the hood..)
Not cheap: Stroker kit, higher compression pistons
I agree with hearne though, the not cheap section need not be delved into. Given a tuneup, my free and cheap mods would probably produce an extra 30 horsies or so and provide considerably better driving power. Even if you got all the cheap and free ones, you'd probably only spend about 400 dollars or thereabouts.
Cheap, undetectable: K&N filter, upgrade rear gears to 3.23-3.55, cam (specs already mentioned, should be mild, like a Compcams 262XE), could re-jet and mess with the carburetor to dump more fuel, mufflers (don't see them when you open the hood..)
Not cheap: Stroker kit, higher compression pistons
I agree with hearne though, the not cheap section need not be delved into. Given a tuneup, my free and cheap mods would probably produce an extra 30 horsies or so and provide considerably better driving power. Even if you got all the cheap and free ones, you'd probably only spend about 400 dollars or thereabouts.
I can't belive that noone has mentioned GEARS is the car a 4 speed than go 5 if it's an auto go with an a4od! 3.50 ish gears. Next thing would be a performer intake ...painted. ford gt40 heads grind off the 3 bars, "K" code cast iron exhaust, custom cam, roller everything for valvetrain...less parasitic drag, up the compression to 10/1 302 crank lightend up all for around $8k wow I like to spend others $$$$$$
dodgestang
Active Member
Burgundystang said:
One thing to keep in mind is understanding the frame of reference many people on this board and other on-line forums come from. We have had many diverse expereinces tuning and hotrodding classic cars in general and I know for myself and for many others that have responded to this post, we have forgetten the seat of the pants change a simple upgraded cam and carb can make do an otherwise stock 289. We have built enough performance builds (or read about others) to understand that the optimum solution deals with improving total air and fuel flow through the entire system and have forgotten the simple joys of making an improvement in your DD by learning how to recurve the dizzy the first time.
To add some simple performance to your motor that both you and your dad can live with and no spend a whole lot of money (which I can assume through expereince is one of the hidden agendas your father hasn't told you about) add a petronix ingition (about $70 and installs in your current dizzy replacing the points) and a little hotter cam (you will need the cam and lifter at the least, and you might consider the springs if your heads have original springs for less than $200 without the springs) and lastly upgrade to a period correct autolite 4 barrell (for around $200-300)...these three things will serve to wake up your motor and make a very percievable change in the overall performance of the motor without changing visuals or draining the wallet.
The key to making it all work is understanding your fathers objections and if you present a well thought out plan to pick up measuarable performance gains without spending a ton of money I bet he will be open to the different carb. Then once it is on the road, you can whittle away at the defenses and slowly turn it into a major street performer.
Although it is possible to bolt on a 4bbl carb on a 2 bbl intake with an adapter, it's not the correct way to do it and you won't get the full benefit of the 4 bbl. If you now have a 2 bbl intake, you can also get 4 bbl performance without the 4 bbl by buying a Holley List # 4412 500 cfm 2 bbl. This carb will net you 20-30 hp and is a direct bolt on to your 2 bbl intake. Only mod is to make a small re-routing of the fuel line. I've had two of them in the last 30 years and can truthfully say they WORK. The first was purchased when I was probably your age ( I was 16 at the time) and had a dad that was as opposed to making changes to a motor as your's may be. But I did it on my own and although he complained about it, after driving it, he loved it's extra power. And this was on a 69 Econoline van's 302, not a much lighter Stang. I also had duals run on it with the same negative comments from him till he drove it, he changed his mind about them also.
OK, one last question and then ill leave you guys alone, I just talked to my dad and one of his main concerns is that if we do start changing things up the value of the car when we go to sell it will decrease. What do you guys think about that? Obviously it will depend on who we can find to buy it and what they want but in general what do you think? If the value does not decrease do you think that we would be able to get back what we put in as far as mods go? Thanks
Could you elaborate on that "depends on the car though." and little maybe. Right now basically every thing on my car is original except the seat covers, carpet and headliner and one or two chrome peices like the outside door handles (all of which are the correct style). Cant really think of anything else except the obvious oil filter batt. etc. I plan on replacing the chrome bumpers as well since they are pretty cracked up.
Take my 68 Merc Monterey 2 door fastback. Had 58,000 miles on it, and was completely original except for paint, never wrecked, and I picked it up for $1000. Seen several on ebay just like it in as good or better condition that never got bids, and starting bids were $1000-1500 with no reserve.
DarkBuddha
Founding Member
You're entering a dangerous area here... No matter what you've heard, no matter what you've read, historically, 99% of folks that restored or modified their vintage Mustangs won't even break even when/if they go to sell. The other 1% are rare, highly desirable models like K-code GTs, Shelbys, Cobra Jets, etc... However, it is usually true that vintage Mustangs have maintained or gained value better than most cars, which is often why they are talked about as investments. The idea is that at some point there is bound to be a breaking point where the money you've put in will be equalled by the market value of the car.Burgundystang said:
That said, the market and value of modified cars, done just "right", has started to change this. It is still a rare experience, but the "right" car, with the "right" mods, done just "right", sold to the "right" buyer, has actually brought more money than the typical market value for that particular car. Look at the last year of Mustangs&Fords and Hemmings Mustang magazines for examples and to get a better sense of what I'm talking about here...
Doing mods and their effect on value is a complex (and sometimes complicated) thing. One approach used by many other folks in your position, and one of the best ways of dealing with this issue, has been to only do mods that are easily (relatively) returned to original. Basically, anything that can be bolted on or is a bolt-on replacement for an original item usually fits this description. For example... you replace the stock lame 2V intake with a nice Edelbrock/Holley combo. If going back to original is a concern, its just a simple matter of switching back. This is an easy example, especially since its would only take an afternoon to do. My point is that you have to draw the line for what you think is relatively reasonable to reverse. Sure, a transmission can be swapped, but is that "reasonable" to have to swap back to original when the time comes??? For some folks, yes; for others, no.
Also, there are certain mods that are unlikely have much of an effect on value one way or the other really, like a cam swap or head porting (as long as they're done correctly). When a motor is rebuilt, the originality of the crank, rods, pistons, bearings, pushrods, etc. seems to be less of a concern. Fewer folks seem to care if the crank in your 289 2v motor is NOS as opposed to a correctly machined/resized replacement, as long as it functions correctly. And those that do care are probably more concerned about whether the crank is forged or cast or what the overall stroke is, etc... That, or they're one of those concourse types that wants everything NOS.
So, you can see that your goal of hidden horsepower is not necessarily in conflict with value or originality. If you mod something, just keep the original components too. If you're like me, the only tough thing about this is finding enough storage for the extra tranny, intake, exhaust components, sway bars, steering wheel, radio, etc., etc., etc...
What's the mileage on your car? Options? Might pay to keep it original. Or at least keep any mods to factory Hi-po stuff. Like the intake, you can bolt on a "Cobra" high rise or the similar C9OX Ford intake and still have "correct" parts on it. These intakes were sold thru the dealers as add on's. Also Tri-Y headers. There were also Ford part numbered Holley 4 bbl carbs that are considered "correct" for your car. There are also hi-po cams available to fit your 289 that are factory hi-po replacements. Crane and Comp Cams make them.
Burgundystang said:
None of us know what you paid for the car, the current condition of the car, or when you plan to sell it. In general, unless you do either a fabulous restomod version, or a professional concourse restoration, any money you put into the car is going to be the price of ownership and is gone forever.
If you are looking at making money on a '66 (except Shelby) forget it. No matter what you do, you probably won't effect the actual market value of the car very much, one way or the other. Just modify the car the way that makes you happy and forget selling price. Just enjoy it! Thats what the hobby is all about!
I've put $35,000 into my '66. It's structurally perfect, mechanically awsome, looks great, runs great, and I'd never get anything close to what I have into it, upon selling. I built this car to make myself happy and to enjoy driving it. It wins trophies at cars shows, and kicks butt at the drag strip, but it's true value is only to me... and thats ok! Enjoy your Mustang and the time you spend with your dad, working on it together....which is priceless.
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