mass air or speed density
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Paul Perreca
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- Mar 30, 2005
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when u say not supported, do u mean that all the new performance parts are built to more towards coinciding w/ the MAF instead of SD?
Paul Perreca-
Paul Perreca-
Paul Perreca said:
Basically. You don't find many tuners that can burn custom for them, or aftermarket chips desigend for them, or EEC tuners that will deal with them. There just weren't enough cars (Mustangs) made with SD for the aftermarket to make much a deal about.
Look at some of the aftermarket stand alone EECs out though. AEM is one of them. You can use it to tune MAF or SD. Check out the forums and see how many are going the MAF route. Maybe a quarter of them, if that.
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
The reason you see so few mass air systems on race fuel injection is because the complexity simply isn't required. Race set ups are MUCH SIMPLER than street set ups - orders of magnitude simpler. Race set ups they don't worry about or care about part throttle drivability, idle quality, emissions, etc. THey just want solid peak power/torque/throttle response from about 4000-6000 rpm up to power peak - 6000-19000 rpm depending on the engine type.
So, pointing to a race application as a reason why a non-mass air system is good really misses the point.
Almost all new car systems are mass air because those systems allow for better fuel control and emissions control under a much wider range of operating conditions and for longer time (years/high miles) than the SD systems do. Because of that, they usually tolerate engine mods better than SD systems do to.
With the lack of tuning experts/hardware/software - it makes a lot of sense to just switch to mass air. You've done a great job getting your blown SD system to work really well Daggar. But those set ups are far in the minority on the 5.0L's. And a little bug tells me even you're considering a mass air swap....
So, pointing to a race application as a reason why a non-mass air system is good really misses the point.
Almost all new car systems are mass air because those systems allow for better fuel control and emissions control under a much wider range of operating conditions and for longer time (years/high miles) than the SD systems do. Because of that, they usually tolerate engine mods better than SD systems do to.
With the lack of tuning experts/hardware/software - it makes a lot of sense to just switch to mass air. You've done a great job getting your blown SD system to work really well Daggar. But those set ups are far in the minority on the 5.0L's. And a little bug tells me even you're considering a mass air swap....
slo65
New Member
Michael Yount said:The reason you see so few mass air systems on race fuel injection is because the complexity simply isn't required. Race set ups are MUCH SIMPLER than street set ups - orders of magnitude simpler. Race set ups they don't worry about or care about part throttle drivability, idle quality, emissions, etc. THey just want solid peak power/torque/throttle response from about 4000-6000 rpm up to power peak - 6000-19000 rpm depending on the engine type.
So, pointing to a race application as a reason why a non-mass air system is good really misses the point.
Almost all new car systems are mass air because those systems allow for better fuel control and emissions control under a much wider range of operating conditions and for longer time (years/high miles) than the SD systems do. Because of that, they usually tolerate engine mods better than SD systems do to.
With the lack of tuning experts/hardware/software - it makes a lot of sense to just switch to mass air. You've done a great job getting your blown SD system to work really well Daggar. But those set ups are far in the minority on the 5.0L's. And a little bug tells me even you're considering a mass air swap....
You're right... I am working a swap as we speak. It's primarily due to that lack of support I mentioned above as well as the price tag associated with a good BAR/MAP standalone ECU. However... the inference that SD cannot be made to support power AND good drivability, just isn't the case. The custom has become "Just do the swap and forget about it" because it's widely supported and easier to do under those conditions. That is the primary reason for my foray into mass air mainstream. Even the TwEECer (which does offer some support for SD ECUs, doesn't provide the completedness that it does for the mass air computers. That company that I mentioned above (AEM) DOES provide a great deal of support for SD and again, it's the primary method of choice for tuners running power adders.
I know, I know... you're another one that's completely sold on MAF and all of it's wonders. hehe It's why I spent so much time picking your brain about it before making the decision to swap. Aside from the availability of support for MAF, it's that adaptability that the stock SD setup lacks that is pushing me towards my current project. Up and coming mods (of which I think you're also aware) would require custom tuning of the stock computer at each stage. So yep... I'm turncoating as well... but only because spending upwards of $2000 on and AEM and supporting hardware/software just isn't in the cards. hehe
YOU HEAR THAT AEM???? YOUR REDICULOUS PRICES SCARE FOLKS! HEHE
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
Just like your antiquated Speed Density system, regular old email and the forums seem to be working just fine!!!
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
I've yet to find a situation where the 'instantness' of AIM is really required. Like cellphones, personal data devices, etc, we've become used to them. It's kind of like living somewhere, and having suburbia encroach on you slowly over time. When your friend from the country comes to visit they comment how 'noisy' it is. You haven't noticed it because it happened so slowly - we call it an 'unhealthy normal'. It's become normal - but it's not the best situation.
Cell phones - 'crack'berries (ref: addiction) - AIM - wifi - it's sometimes convenient; rarely necessary. My cell stays off - unless I'm using it to call someone.
Cell phones - 'crack'berries (ref: addiction) - AIM - wifi - it's sometimes convenient; rarely necessary. My cell stays off - unless I'm using it to call someone.
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
To quote some guy named 'Daggar' from an earlier post in this thread "Have you learned nothing?" 
865-602-3580 Call the house anytime before 11pm eastern.
865-602-3580 Call the house anytime before 11pm eastern.
anyone know where the limit is on a SD system's default tune? Im just working off the information in this post and some other jumbled information but aparently the cams the largest issue so bear with my ignorance here. What lift/duration does the stock tune start to puke out? Ive seen quite a few cars running SD with claimed e303's b303's ect but i doubt half of them know what they got and the half that do just had the work done. e303's allready been stated to need a custom tune or mass air conversion to run properly so thats out.
EFI's pretty foreign to me and as im looking for a fox right now i figure'd i'd jump into the frey here. exactly how much can you do to a SD system before you need to do a custom tune or convert to mass air? How adaptive is the stock tune beyond cam selection? Is it as simple as matching heads, intake, TB and injectors to work the best with the pre-selected SD "friendly" cam? Regardless if it would be better to convert to mass air if you were going to do all that work or not just try'n to gain some knowledge as i may never have to worry about it
EFI's pretty foreign to me and as im looking for a fox right now i figure'd i'd jump into the frey here. exactly how much can you do to a SD system before you need to do a custom tune or convert to mass air? How adaptive is the stock tune beyond cam selection? Is it as simple as matching heads, intake, TB and injectors to work the best with the pre-selected SD "friendly" cam? Regardless if it would be better to convert to mass air if you were going to do all that work or not just try'n to gain some knowledge as i may never have to worry about it
DMAN302
My mom says thanks for the pearl necklace.
Mike I question the posting of your phone number so freely..you may leave yourself open to hundreds if not thousands of calls regarding irrelevant questions, many of which likely not even mustang ...or even automotive related. And yes most of those calls would be from me...I get kind of lonely when the wife's on afternoons
mnsports
New Member
With SD you can tune your engine more precisely and get the most out of it. I am getting the Edelbrock Pro-Flo System for my 357W build. I give my engine specs to Edelbrock and the burn a chip for me then with the system I have a hand held programmer to tweak anything I need to. The system has 3 presets too. When factoring in all the costs for my 351 swap the Edelbrock system is good for me Cash & Performance wise plus if I ever change the engine specs Edelbrock will burn me a chip.
SD is great if you can tune it...otherwise you are better off with MA
SD is great if you can tune it...otherwise you are better off with MA
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
DMAN - I don't mind the calls - unless they come from guy's who are lonely in the middle of the afternoon.
SD's 'limit', or any systems limit is more complex than the question seems to suggest. Can wilder cams be used with it? Yes. The system seems to work better at higher rpm even with more aggressive camshafts. So in a racing application, it might be just fine. But the idle/low rpm performance might be unacceptable to most. On the other hand, Daggar has a supercharged, SD combo knocking down over 400HP and it seems to work quite well. You have to look at how the vehicle is gonna be used - and then make decisions about the appropriate fuel/ignition/engine management system for your needs.
SD's 'limit', or any systems limit is more complex than the question seems to suggest. Can wilder cams be used with it? Yes. The system seems to work better at higher rpm even with more aggressive camshafts. So in a racing application, it might be just fine. But the idle/low rpm performance might be unacceptable to most. On the other hand, Daggar has a supercharged, SD combo knocking down over 400HP and it seems to work quite well. You have to look at how the vehicle is gonna be used - and then make decisions about the appropriate fuel/ignition/engine management system for your needs.
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